Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can you Deep Strike a Monolith and Tank Shock on the way down?

No. They call that a DS mishap.

40k-noob wrote:
No. They call that a DS mishap.

This 100%

Great qusetion and idea!

Deep Strike is at the beginning/before movement, and Tank Shock is during movement...

I think?

rexscarlet wrote:
Great qusetion and idea!

Deep Strike is at the beginning/before movement, and Tank Shock is during movement...

I think?

Read the Tank Shock From Reserve section on pg 85 BGB

@jdjamesdean@mail.com

so, looks like it is a go!

tanks pg85; yep says; see reserves

reserves; says; see deep strike

deepstrike pg36; does not change the reserve rules

is that right?

rexscarlet wrote:
@jdjamesdean@mail.com

so, looks like it is a go!

tanks pg85; yep says; see reserves

reserves; says; see deep strike

deepstrike pg36; does not change the reserve rules

is that right?

Tank Shock
"attempt to Tank Shock instead of moving normally." pg 85 under the Title.

So disallowed, you mishap.

@jd

so, deep striking is moving normally?

deep striking vehicles count as moving at cruiseing speed...

1) choose vehicle from reserve
2) declare tank shock attempt
3) aim at an enemy unit; straight down
4) declare distance; "maximum cruising speed" for deep striking vehicle, but is really infinite distance

Is step 5) where you think it is a no?

5) "... move the tank straight forward..."

Since I chose to reserve tank shock, why can I not choose the way my unit moves on the table? I choose deep strike, which follows all the movement rules for tank shock; straight forward toward target... (in this case do you think because a deep striking unit moves "down" is why it is a no?)

A tank does not have a front when it is deep striking?

Deep Strike Rules are movement rules in the movement phase.

rexscarlet wrote:
@jd

so, deep striking is moving normally?

deep striking vehicles count as moving at cruiseing speed...

1) choose vehicle from reserve
2) declare tank shock attempt
3) aim at an enemy unit; straight down
4) declare distance; "maximum cruising speed" for deep striking vehicle, but is really infinite distance

Is step 5) where you think it is a no?

5) "... move the tank straight forward..."

Since I chose to reserve tank shock, why can I not choose the way my unit moves on the table? I choose deep strike, which follows all the movement rules for tank shock; straight forward toward target... (in this case do you think because a deep striking unit moves "down" is why it is a no?)

A tank does not have a front when it is deep striking?

Deep Strike Rules are movement rules in the movement phase.

Deepstriking is not normal movement.
Otherwise you could Deepstrike every turn.

Deepstriking is a special form of movement normally used when coming from reserves.

@jd

I know what DS is, ty

So, because DS is not moving normally, and TS replaces "normal" movement, then DS+TS is a no.

got it... ty

I have to agree, that deepstriking is considered coming from the sky, and a tank shock is a high speed drive at a unit. If you wanted to deep strike to tank shock they have to create types of deep strike. IE i believe it is considered a monolith phases in from no where, as such the enemy units would be disrupting that teleport and ruin it. such as terminators phasing into orks. It just sounds bad. The result is a mishap, it is possible it dies. If they made you know types of deep strike like, SQUASH, SHIZSHAM! ALAKAZAM! where squash is you land on the enemy, make up stat for damage they take, SHIZSHAM they are hit by warp lightning, ALAKAZAM, they swap places or something. But you get my point OP; its a mishap. Further obvious explanation is models deep striking cant land in impassible terrain, allies, and foe are considered impassible terrain, if such a event happens it is a mishap!

40k-noob wrote:
No. They call that a DS mishap.

Yes, after the monolith rolls on the mishap table and the results are applied.

rexscarlet wrote:
@jd

I know what DS is, ty

So, because DS is not moving normally, and TS replaces "normal" movement, then DS+TS is a no.

got it... ty

you clearly dont because you said "so, deepstriking is normal movement?"

Sounds cool. I'd allow it on the condition you mishap if it misses.

clively wrote:
Sounds cool. I'd allow it on the condition you mishap if it misses.

Considering this is what the monolith used to to.

I've had my fair share of it

It is silly that this is even being debated.

The moment that you get within 1" of an enemy unit while DS'ing you mishap.

The Tank Shock assuming it is legal, fails to reach the enemy at all.

There is no point in even attempting it because you will never succeed.

NO NO NO

just no

Nah, as much as I love the monolith, this just can't happen it would be a mishap, since the deepstrike rules would override the tank shock rules and you would have to follow them to arrive on the table and if you mishap on an opponent then you never really arrived on the table because you, appear somewhere else, dont arrive or get lost in the warp etc.

Furthermore if you could(you cant) then would you say you could ram a vehicle in this fashion? Cause that would cause its own problems(both you and your target taking an automatic penetrating hit) due to speed.

Ramming from reservee is different to ramming from Deep Strike.

If the monolith came on from the table edge and rammed - fine.

If you Deep Strike in and land within 1" of an enemy model, you mishap.

Maybe it would be easier to understand if you explained that within 1" of an enemy model is a three dimensional circular bubble around the model, not just a flat 1" perimeter on the table.

So on top of a model is within that 1" bubble, for the sake of understand why this is against the current rules.

Even if it were legal, I would think it would immobilize or even destroy the deep striking monolith, so its kinda of a waste honestly. Suicide units aren't much fun.

Ok, recognizing that I may be accused of thread necromancy for this, but preferring to risk that than start an entirely new thread, or trolling, because my first post is to argue against the apparent consensus. Hopefully I can avoid that by adding something to the conversation. I apologize that this is rather long, but there are a number of issues which have been raised that I feel need addressed if I am to have any chance of changing the understanding of this rules situation.


Ignoring the responses that seem to be best summed up by “I don't like Monoliths and don't want them to have any power.” rather than actual rules or contextual arguments (ie; “NO, NO, NO. Just no,” “I've had my fair share of it,” and any post using the , or smilies.) I disagree with the current state of the conversation regarding Monolith Skimmer protection/Tank Shock during Deep Strike. Currently there appear to be two main arguments against either the Skimmer feature of the Monolith or the Tank Shock movement providing protection; a) that Deep Strike does not count as movement and b) that Deep Strike mishap triggers before any other consideration.
I'm attempting to address each of these with the concrete rules text, and would appreciate counter arguments that do the same. So far all of my conversations have amounted to “we've never done it that way” and, as I address here, vaguely cited rules omitting words which seem to have actual meaning changing effects.

Regarding (A); in my survey of the RAW and FAQ, there appears to be no explicit textual support in the 6th edition rules that Deep Strike is a non-movement 'placement' action. It is an action which occurs during the movement phase adjusting the position of unit (from reserves to the table). That it does so in a manner different than normal reserve entry seems immaterial without some text indicating a difference.
Moreover, the following two textual statements that directly counteract the idea it is some sort of non-movement action; “In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further...” (BRB, p36- Deep Strike) The phrase “any further” clearly indicates that the writers considered the the unit to have moved. Then, in the next paragraph, you find a passage previously cited as; “In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run) as normal, and ... count as having moved in the previous Movement phase.” The argument forwarded being that they only “count as having moved for purposes of shooting.” and have not actually moved. This may be a reasonable interpretation, except that I have omitted the word “obviously.” Counting as having moved if the unit has not “actually moved” seems like it would preclude obviousness.


Having, I hope, established that Deep Strike is a form of movement this allows us to address two specific rules;
Skimmer protection;
The question is whether a skimmer which lands atop friendly or enemy units is considered to have “forced movement” placing them there. Having, again hopefully, addressed the question of whether it counts as movement, we turn to whether it is considered “forced.” Excluding the special case of intentionally targeting units, scatter deviation seems to be a classic case of required movement. Note that I am not arguing that the unit traverses the distance covered by the scatter, but instead that the unit has been adjusted from the endpoint desired by the player to another endpoint required by the rules in a manner outside player choice. I fail to see how, so long as the player chose a legal landing point, the adjustment of a unit's final location via scatter differs substantially in terms of “force” from any other rules required adjustment in location.

Tank Shock;
Regarding the idea that Deep Strike replaces normal movement, and thus does not allow normal movement to be replaced again, I have found no textual support. I welcome any text that would change that. However, adjusting the entry point alone seems to be a distinction without difference and, from discussions with my local gaming group, appears to be rooted in the memory of previous editions rather than current rules. The idea that “Deep Striking is a special form of movement normally used when coming from reserves,” is again a distinction without clear support in the rules. Deep Strike is not a decision made at the time a unit enters play, nor is it done from the normal reserve pool. A unit which uses Deep Strike entry to the table does so from a special reserve; “When placing the unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike reserve).” The choice is then made at the beginning of the game which route the unit will take to the table and, from there, the unit simply moves via the path available to it.


Which brings us to B) that the Deep Strike Mishap takes precedence over all other considerations. I understand where this argument come from, but I don't see any actual text indicating that it takes precedence- meaning the opposite case is not automatically disqualified.
Consequently; a Tank arriving by Tank Shock forces non-vehicle units to move at least 1” away from its final resting place. Full stop. Should the Tank arrive within 1” of an enemy unit it would Mishap. However, again, I have found no actual text to indicate why the Deep Strike Mishap would trigger prior to obstructing unit(s) clearing a path. In fact, referring to the Tank Shock rules it seems very clear that under no circumstances will more than one model remain in the path of a Tank Shocking vehicle, and that that single model is destroyed should they fail to Immobilize or destroy the vehicle with their single attack, meaning that even in such a case the landing point is cleared.


Finally, and this is perhaps the most confusing argument I've yet seen so I didn't even count it, somehow tanks from the sky (or thin air) are somehow less scary than tanks coming over a hill? I am unsure how Fearless warriors will move out of the way of a tank driving towards them at a good clip- remember the effect of a successful Morale check vs Tank Shock is that they let the vehicle pass, or move out of its way if it stops on their location- but two kids running a lemonade stand suddenly think that same Tank falling through the air treat it as the least important thing in the world. Even for teleporting units; a guy walking his dog sees an area the size of a city block start to materialize on top of him, and his choice is to stand his ground? Can you seriously tell me that the results of a Monolith's pilot choosing to fully materialize with a guardsman overlapping his hull would go better for the person than the Monolith itself? If the threat of materializing inside solid rock is present, why is the threat of being materialized around a threat to insignificant things which try to block the path of something the size of a building.
While it has been suggested that some complex set of rules would be necessary to accommodate the various methods of Deep Strike which might be executed, I fail to see evidence of this. A collision, is a collision, is a collision- most of the rules I'm arguing would allow Deep Strike protection are focused on avoiding such collisions.

If you've stayed with me through all of that, thank you for your time. I look forward to any responses.

The initial placement of the marker, where you would like the unit to arrive, is most definitely not movement. Neither is the scatter, if any.

The mishap resolves first because the unit never arrives, meaning its movement has not ended, and the skimmer rules never kick in.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The initial placement of the marker, where you would like the unit to arrive, is most definitely not movement. Neither is the scatter, if any.

The mishap resolves first because the unit never arrives, meaning its movement has not ended, and the skimmer rules never kick in.

This.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The initial placement of the marker, where you would like the unit to arrive, is most definitely not movement. Neither is the scatter, if any.

The mishap resolves first because the unit never arrives, meaning its movement has not ended, and the skimmer rules never kick in.

Then declaring you are tank shocking would force the unit to move first. Because the roll for leadership is made before the unit finishes it's move, so tank shocking while deep striking the unit might move out of the way first.



Also note, there is only 2 ways for the skimmer rules to kick in, and they are both enemy actions/weapons. If you disallow deep strike tank shocking, then you need to disallow the third remaining option for the skimmer forced movement ending rule. which is ending over a an enemy model that you moved over while tank shocking a different unit with your skimmer, as tank shock is instead of moving normally. This rule really needs an FAQ. Same as Drop Pods, because as written those don't function the way they are played either.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The initial placement of the marker, where you would like the unit to arrive, is most definitely not movement. Neither is the scatter, if any.

I explicitly agreed with these statements already, and feel that neither has bearing on what is actually being represented or the rules by which it is resolved.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The mishap resolves first because the unit never arrives, meaning its movement has not ended, and the skimmer rules never kick in.

I believe this to be the source of our disconnect and disagreement. Why does it never arrive?

In terms of Skimmers, your argument seems circular to me (it arrives on a unit because its special rule doesn't kick in, and its special rule doesn't kick in because it doesn't arrive), and I'm not seeing the part of the text from which you are drawing that conclusion.

As you directly address the Skimmer part of this discussion, I read the section on pg 38 of the BRB as carving out several exceptions to normal movement for skimmers which seem directly applicable to the Deep Strike rules, including; “Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models...” this would imply, to me, that the issue of proximity does not arrive until the termination of the move.

Though you do not address the idea of Tank Striking, I believe that the key point of discussion (failure to arrive) is similarly relevant to most people's reasoning. In the case of arriving on an enemy unit; I believe that, if declared, the Tank Shock rules are controlling because the tank does not stop unless forced to do so by a Death or Glory resulting in an Immobilized or Explodes result or dealing sufficient HP damage to destroy the vehicle outright. To expand on my previous discussion of that point, and provide the text I which is central to my logic, I believe the controlling text is on page 85 of the BRB where it says;
“If an enemy unit other than an enemy vehicle is reached, that enemy unit must take a Morale check and immediately Fall Back if it fails. If the test is passed, the unit simply lets the Tank move through, as if it was not there. Regardless of the result of the test, the Tank keeps moving straight on, possibly tank shocking more enemy units until it reaches its final position.”

This directly states that the tank may move through an enemy unit, ignoring its presence, and, more importantly for our discussion; DOES NOT STOP. From other discussions regarding Tank Shock there appears to be a common perception that a tank stops at each unit it reaches, does a series of checks, then continues driving. I would guess that perception arises from the fact that in practical terms that is how gameplay is resolved, but it seems clear to me that is not the rules effect of what is occurring and thus should not be considered so for evaluation of other actions.

Regarding ending its movement where an enemy unit is, the next paragraph reads;
“If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle then it reaches its final position (it makes no difference whether the unit is falling back or not), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle whilst maintaining unit coherency and staying on the board.”

Thus, a Tank Shock does not stop prior to arriving at its destination, and upon arrival (living) enemy units cannot have remained in the way its arrival.

All of which result in no reason that the Tank would not arrive at its target destination.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

This.

I take it that you agree with nosferatu1001's assessment of these rules. As neither of you provide it, I would very much like the RAW or FAQ textual basis for this opinion.

You cannot deep strike and tank shock as a unit clearly requires the ability to move normally that turn to tank shock. Deep striking doesn't allow for normal movement.

Deep strike requires you to be deployed on the board correctly, there is no protection anywhere in the rules to override the requirement of needing to be deployed correctly because deep strike isn't movement, it's deployment.

So you cannot be tank shocking during deployment as you don't have the ability to move normally that turn and until you're deployed correctly you're not on the board and don't count as moving until you're deployed correctly.

Silentone - the rules were already given.

Scatter is prior to the unit arriving. It is not movement. Only AFTER you complete DS have you moved.

So, when you land within 1" of an enemy model you Mishap. This isnt movement YET - due to the already quoted DS rules - so you have no permission to move the enemy models. You cannot deploy there, as you have no permission to do so - you must instead Mishap.

Find a rules allowance to NOT mishap, as required by the DS rules. Find permission to treat the final scatter position as movement. ANYTHING to suport your side, as you have no rules basis for anything you have stated. Nothing at all that is different from the prior posts, anyway

Find permission to Tank Shock Deep strike. The rules for Tank Shock cannot be completed, as you cannot pivot and move a number of inches. You have no measuring point, either. So, given you cannot complete the requirements for a TS, you cannot TS. So remove that idea.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You cannot deep strike and tank shock as a unit clearly requires the ability to move normally that turn to tank shock.

Based on what? How are you defining “move normally?” What text makes it clear? I've already provided RAW that indicates Deep Strike is a movement, with all that entails. What are you deriving your assessment from?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Deep strike requires you to be deployed on the board correctly, there is no protection anywhere in the rules to override the requirement of needing to be deployed correctly.

Again, based on what? During deployment you place the unit into reserve (“sometimes called Deep Strike reserve”). During play you move the unit to the table. I don't see anything in the Deep Strike rules about “deploying” to the table with Deep Strike (though, I think I saw that in a previous edition). I am not suggesting that you be allowed to move or end movement illegally. I am providing rules that state the nature of that movement and limitations of its ending may not be precisely what people assume they are and may allow certain vehicles more safety in Deep Strike than seems to be generally assumed.


I am, further, asking for someone to provide actual game-controlling text to substantiate the opposing stance. What I have seen, and heard in local discussions, are assertions that “that just isn't how it works.” From some of those local discussions I am absolutely certain that's not how it worked in previous editions. However, in previous editions the Monolith had layers of Deep Strike protection written into its entry. I'm fairly certain no one is arguing that we should allow the unit to keep those protections just because they existed in a now obsolete codex. Why are we, then, expecting that the RAW interaction in rules (Deep Strike, Tank Shock, and Skimmers) to work the same way despite some fairly graphic and well established differences between the editions, such as assaults and fliers, without providing actual rules or FAQ text?

I don't have to define move normally, deep strike forbids it and tank shock requires it.

Page 34 2nd paragraph from bottom of left column. "In the Movement phase... may not move any further...." that forbids moving as normal.

As for the word deployed or deployment in deep strike... read mishaps that requires you deploy properly otherwise you're not deployed and other stuff could happen. You are required to be outside 1" of an enemy model. That is further than the protection that the skimmer rules grant(even if we go with your reading of the rules) so again, you cannot drop on a unit and go "hey tank shock" as there is 2 rules preventing you landing there, the 1st is deep strike and moreover if you were normally moving you'd have to be declaring tank shock before you pull that as normal movement forbids it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Silentone - the rules were already given.

Where? The only thing I see is a reference to pg 85, Tank Shock “instead of moving normally.” which is then caveated lower on the page, in the other column “A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board.” So; normal movement, except when it's coming from reserve...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Scatter is prior to the unit arriving. It is not movement. Only AFTER you complete DS have you moved.

Why are you obsessing over scatter?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

So, when you land within 1" of an enemy model you Mishap. This isnt movement YET - due to the already quoted DS rules - so you have no permission to move the enemy models. You cannot deploy there, as you have no permission to do so - you must instead Mishap.

Find a rules allowance to NOT mishap, as required by the DS rules. Find permission to treat the final scatter position as movement. ANYTHING to suport your side, as you have no rules basis for anything you have stated. Nothing at all that is different from the prior posts, anyway

I've already addressed why I think I've met these requirements and that there are rules which cover situations at least as specific as Deep Strike. I've quoted several sections of RAW that I feel support my stance. If you believe I have not done so I would respectfully ask that you review my posts above. After making my own review of this thread I see minimal citations supporting your view, and none which I feel I have not specifically addressed. If you feel otherwise please point them out.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Find permission to Tank Shock Deep strike. The rules for Tank Shock cannot be completed, as you cannot pivot and move a number of inches. You have no measuring point, either. So, given you cannot complete the requirements for a TS, you cannot TS. So remove that idea.

You cannot “pivot” in a traditional sense when entering from reserves via a board edge, yet the rules clearly, explicitly, and with a bold heading allow for it. Actually, speaking of that bold heading and the permissions you asked me to find...
Meanwhile, there is no need for measurement of distance to generate a Tank Shock. The requirement is that you move Combat Speed, which Deep Strike clearly states you exceed in text I have quoted above, verbatim. If you need a number of inches and direction, the direction is “to the table” and the number of inches is whatever the number is that is required to reach the table from reserve.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I don't have to define move normally, deep strike forbids it and tank shock requires it.

Page 34 2nd paragraph from bottom of left column. "In the Movement phase... may not move any further...." that forbids moving as normal.

I'm sorry, but that quote forbids *moving*any*further*... I believe I addressed this already.

silentone2k wrote:

“In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further...” (BRB, p36- Deep Strike) The phrase “any further” clearly indicates that the writers considered the the unit to have moved.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
As for the word deployed or deployment in deep strike... read mishaps that requires you deploy properly otherwise you're not deployed...

Yes, a certain mishap event allows your opponent to deploy the unit anywhere on the table (with exclusions). I don't see a reasonable logic path from “one of the mishaps allows the opponent to deploy” to “all deep strike is deployment.” The same section includes landing in a proper Deep Strike formation... without rolling for scatter. Can I generalize that part of the mishap to the non-mishap arrival rules as well? I would say no, but the point is that I view this statement as doing exactly that.