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Right, so this is an odd one.

There's a debate in my group over how Mob Rule actually works when leadership is forcibly lowered.

More specifically, the debate is focused around Mob Rule versus Weaken Resolve.

As I understood it, Mob Rule is optional and can be called into effect at any point. SO, Weaken Resolve hits the boyz, reducing their leadership of 7 to 2. When the time comes to do a Leadership Check, I declare I'm using Mob Rule to push my leadership back up to 10, since I am substituting my normal leadership (reduced to 2), for the number of boyz in my unit (10+), thus negating the penalty inflicted by Weaken Resolve.


The opposition has two similar views that argue with my perception:

*The leadership penalty carries over, regardless of change. Leadership has been lowered, it doesn't matter what I use to represent the leadership - the penalty still exists.

*When Weaken Resolve is used, the Ork player must then declare which leadership they are using (Mob Rule or Standard). This leadership suffers the penalty, and the penalty remains regardless.

What are your thoughts?

Best answer I have is Weaken Resolve is a subtraction, and Mob rule is a set value, so Mob rule Trumps WR.

Multiple modifiers P.2

Mob rule allows them to use the number of boyz in the mob instead of their Ld value.

So Instead of Ld (A) you use Mob Size (B). You are hit by something that reduces your Ld (C)

So your effective Ld = A - C

Mob rule lets you replace A with B.

So your effective Ld = B - C

Definately going to side with the Mob rule being a set value. It trumps.

It definitely appears mob rule is a set value.

Okay, so that's 3 who side with Mob Rule trumping WS, and 1 who sides with the penalty persisting. Ideally I'd prefer to see more feedback to get a general sense of the community perspective - (not just looking for validation here, weird hey?).

Note, that Weaken Resolve is a persistent effect and lasts for the remainder of the IG turn - it's not just a hit-and-forget effect. I'm not certain if this changes anything or not - but it could work in favour of the penalty persisting as insaniak put forward.


Now for a somewhat related and odd question, which came up in the same debate. When using Mob Rule, is its effect persistent?

To be more clear, let's say I have 30 boyz in a unit. Does Mob Rule:

(a) Bring their leadership up to 30, where it's effectively capped at 10

(b) Bring their leadership up to 10, anything past that is lost.


If (a), then does a leadership penalty apply to:

(1) The number of boyz (so 30 - x), meaning that as long as the penalty is not too great, the boyz still effectively remain at leadership 10.

(2) The capped result (10-x) - the extra bodies don't count, only the capped result in isolation is used.

I've always played it as (b) / (a-2), though it's (apparently) something to consider.

Mob Rule is a set value. You may always exchange their leadership, (which would be reduced by Weaken Resolve) for the mob #.

Now your questions. Effectively it is capped at 10 with the added Fearless. The second question really does not apply as the set modifier applies after the subtraction.

Pertinent FAQ from GK regarding Mob rule showing that it is not a set modifier:

Q: Are units with either the Stubborn or Mob Rule! special rules
effected by the ‘They’re horrible’ result of the psychotroke grenade?
(p60)
A: Yes, such units will be reduced to Leadership 2. However a
unit with the Mob Rule! special rule that has 11 or more
models will still be Fearless.

If the Mob rule was a set modifier, you would have two set modifiers and roll off, however, since it is not, the set modifier of "2" wins out.

Mob and psychotroke would still interact this way if Mob Rule was a set modifier.

copper.talos wrote:
Mob and psychotroke would still interact this way if Mob Rule was a set modifier.

Set modifiers roll off. So no, you're incorrect.

Maybe I missed it. What page is this?

Edit: It's certainly not on the modifiers paragraph.

copper.talos wrote:
Maybe I missed it. What page is this?

Edit: It's certainly not on the modifiers paragraph.

Tyranid FAQ wrote:Q: If a model with lash whips is attacking a model with an Initiative boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. Furious Charge, an Eldar Banshee
Mask etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified? (p83)
A: As a ‘set value modifier’ the lash whip effect is applied after
all other modifiers. If the model is affected by another set value
modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each
Fight sub-phase.

This isn't addressing the specific case of a Lash Whip vs wargear - the entire answer is a general statement about set modifiers.

So this creates a precedent? RAW I mean.

Well what happens if someone gets the warlord trait that says enemys in 12 inches use the lowest leadership? Does that force boys to use LD 7 instead of the mob leadership?

copper.talos wrote:
So this creates a precedent? RAW I mean.

I'd say it's more than a precedent - it's an absolute. If it only addressed Lash Whips, then it'd just be a precedent.
Since it specifically addresses set modifiers, it can absolutely applied across the board.

 Icelord wrote:
Well what happens if someone gets the warlord trait that says enemys in 12 inches use the lowest leadership? Does that force boys to use LD 7 instead of the mob leadership?

Mob Rule affects the leadership of every boy in the mob - so every boy will be Leadership 10 if there are 10 or more boyz in the unit. At that point, Leadership 10 IS the lowest leadership.

Anyway, in regards to the rulings being talked about here, that's a real bummer! Looks like I'll have to prioritize the psyker squads with long range weapons.

Just pulled out my Ork Codex.

Pg. 31, Mob Rule!
"...Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value."
(Emphasis mine)

Now, it says it can only replace their normal leadership, aka unmodified leadership, so Mob Rule would take place before any leadership modifiers kick in.
It breaks my warboss heart to say I agree with your opponents.

I'm not convinced the psychothrope is a precedent. It feels rather like an exception - after all it's breaking stubborn. And it's a gimmicky thing...
Or a better way to phrase my doubt: If you take the psychotrope as a hint that the mob rule isn't a 'set value', what is it then? An addition?

Let's review options...
1-Psychotrope is an exception (a set value that always wins roll-off, say?), Mob Rule is still a set value, still wins against Weaken Resolve.
2-Mob Rule is... like an addition?... Then it would have to roll off for priority against other additions or subtractions. Weaken Resolve is a subtraction, so it'd roll off against mob rule. But Mob rule would lose to psychotrope's set value.
3-Mob Rule is an alternative stat to normal LD, so it is set before any additions, set values, etc... In that case a big mob would have LD 10 then reduced by Weaken Resolve.

My gaming group is less RAW and more KISS and RAI than the dakka community, I must note, but option 3 is how we'd play it since it'd feel weird to us making orks (mostly) immune to leadership effects. And weirder to -not- give them some resilience due to Mob Rule. I also happen to be the ork player in our group.

Even if the leadership of the orks is reduced to 2 they are still fearless if they have 11 plus boys so what does it matter if they are leadership 2 and fearless?

 Spacecat wrote:
I'm not convinced the psychothrope is a precedent. It feels rather like an exception - after all it's breaking stubborn. And it's a gimmicky thing...
Or a better way to phrase my doubt: If you take the psychotrope as a hint that the mob rule isn't a 'set value', what is it then? An addition?

3-Mob Rule is an alternative stat to normal LD, so it is set before any additions, set values, etc... In that case a big mob would have LD 10 then reduced by Weaken Resolve.

This. We know it's not a set value because those force rolloffs and the psychotrope isn't listed as an exception to that rule.
It's not an addition because it doesn't say it is.
It's an alternative leadership and not a modifier at all.

There is another faq. A BRB one:
Q: Does the Initiative 10 imposed by the Timeflow Stabiliser take precedence over other set value modifiers such as Necron Whip Coils? (p106)
A: No, randomly determine which effect takes precedence each turn.

Yet it is another faq about Initiative during CC, which is a very specific condition. So although RAI I would agree completely and call it a precedent, I wouldn't call it RAW or absolute...

copper.talos wrote:
There is another faq. A BRB one:
Q: Does the Initiative 10 imposed by the Timeflow Stabiliser take precedence over other set value modifiers such as Necron Whip Coils? (p106)
A: No, randomly determine which effect takes precedence each turn.

Yet it is another faq about Initiative during CC, which is a very specific condition. So although RAI I would agree completely and call it a precedent, I wouldn't call it RAW or absolute...

... That one agrees with the one I cited. Conflicting set values roll off.

But I do agree with you, on a RAI point of you.

copper.talos wrote:
But I do agree with you, on a RAI point of you.

My point is that it's not even RAI - it's spelled out in actual rules. The answer to the Whip Coil/Lash Whip FAQs (not the BRB answer) is broader than the question. It's not restricted in any way.

its not too difficult to understand either... weaken resolve does bring their leadership down... mob rule does not ignore modifiers, it just allows you to use the number of models in the squad to represent their leadership... since a unit can never be higher than leadership 10 this remains static... in order to help keep them on the table, if the unit numbers 11 or more models they become fearless... if you wanted to hit them with weaken resolve and psychic shriek, they'd roll leadership on a 2, but they roll 8, so they would lose 6 models... is the number of the squad still higher than 11? if so then nothing further happens... if they reach 10 or below=leadership check for casualties sustained.

Psychotroke grenades are the same way

Since Mob Rule Mentions nothing about preventing modification of leadership, it is an implied rule that you may modify the Mob Rule leadership, since no power may be given unless specifically stated.

You may, at any point replace your leadership with # of boys, functionally 10.

Any persistent effects (Weaken Resolve) would apply. Swapping leadership is an instantaneous effect, and again, does not prevent the further modification of the Mob Ld. value, so the persistent effect would carry on.

The idea that Mob Rule can negate persistent effects is, in itself, a power and must be specified to exist. If it doesn't say Unmodifiable, then at any time you may swap, and it would be addressed as the new leadership value (10) less any active effects. In order to avoid persistent battlefield conditions, you need explicit conditions. Implying it as a "forever-replacing" Ld. value would make the term "unmodifiable" obsolete. Your infinite moment is called a special rule, not an instantaneous stat swap. I feel like playing the game this way is fundamentally wrong.

Sorry if it seems repetitive. I feel like the negation of things should be explicit or non existent.

like someone said before they are still fearless doesnt matter what their ld is anyways

How does it all work if your unit of orks is at 9?

Mobrule is a set value modifier, so is applied last.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mobrule is a set value modifier, so is applied last.

Based on the following i would have to disagree:

Q: Are units with either the Stubborn or Mob Rule! special rules
effected by the ‘They’re horrible’ result of the psychotroke grenade?
(p60)
A: Yes, such units will be reduced to Leadership 2. However a
unit with the Mob Rule! special rule that has 11 or more
models will still be Fearless.