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With the Legiones Astartes, the Emperor and his Primarchs, the Imperial Truth and so many things the post-Heresy Imperium so foolishly discarded (though not without reason, but still foolishly IMO), which factions in the 41st Millennium could stand against the Great Crusade-era Imperium?

Note: Naturally this disregards the post-Heresy Imperium and the Traitor Legions, since they're both grew from the ruins of that young and vigorous empire.

Chaos could. They did it once, they could do it again.

The Imperium's greatest enemy was itself - which is why it was not foolish at all to discard that which brought it to its knees.

Of the other factions ... 'nids, I would assume. Just because they appear to have an endless resource of troops, and you cannot recapture that which they have conquered once.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Chaos could. They did it once, they could do it again.

That's why I said don't involve the post-Heresy Imperium or the Traitor Legions

I suppose its my fault for not being totally clear on this scenario: Chaos is contained, the Immaterium harnessed for the good of Mankind, the Primarchs are all loyal, and the Emperor reigns and governs (in other words, reason and technological certainty are the rule of the day as opposed to superstition and faith).

 Lynata wrote:
The Imperium's greatest enemy was itself - which is why it was not foolish at all to discard that which brought it to its knees.

Except by discarding its ideals, the Imperium has condemned itself to a slow death. It is unlikely in the extreme that the Emperor will be restored/resurrected/or even become a 'god'. It is even more unlikely (perhaps even impossible) for the post-Heresy Imperium to reclaim/surpass the achievements of the Great Crusade, much less survive.

Of the other factions ... 'nids, I would assume. Just because they appear to have an endless resource of troops, and you cannot recapture that which they have conquered once.

Point.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Chaos could. They did it once, they could do it again.

That's why I said don't involve the post-Heresy Imperium or the Traitor Legions

I suppose its my fault for not being totally clear on this scenario: Chaos is contained, the Immaterium harnessed for the good of Mankind, the Primarchs are all loyal, and the Emperor reigns and governs (in other words, reason and technological certainty are the rule of the day as opposed to superstition and faith).

Chaos is more than just the Traitor Legions. That said, with those conditions, no one. Possibly the Tyranids and possibly the Necrons, depending on how many 'Nids arrive simultaneously and how many Necrons wake up, but with all the Legiones Astartes and the Emperor Humanity would crush pretty much any resistance. Not even the Orks would stand much of a chance. The "immaterium harnessed for the good of Mankind" part really seals the deal.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Chaos could. They did it once, they could do it again.

That's why I said don't involve the post-Heresy Imperium or the Traitor Legions

I suppose its my fault for not being totally clear on this scenario: Chaos is contained, the Immaterium harnessed for the good of Mankind, the Primarchs are all loyal, and the Emperor reigns and governs (in other words, reason and technological certainty are the rule of the day as opposed to superstition and faith).

Chaos is more than just the Traitor Legions. That said, with those conditions, no one. Possibly the Tyranids and possibly the Necrons, depending on how many 'Nids arrive simultaneously and how many Necrons wake up, but with all the Legiones Astartes and the Emperor Humanity would crush pretty much any resistance. Not even the Orks would stand much of a chance. The "immaterium harnessed for the good of Mankind" part really seals the deal.

Hmmm...'nids and 'crons would be hard nuts to crack, even with the Warp at Mankind's disposal. The Orks too would count if they were under a strong leader like Ghazghkull.

EDIT: As for Chaos Daemons...yeah. Leman Russ and the Wolves would just sweep in and burn everything to ashes.

Well, if the Iom stays together and the Heresy never happens then it's basically game over. Chaos would either be gone or so weak that it would be difficult for it to mount any real offensive (which was part of the Emporer's plan in encouraging a secular society). The Eldar were already fallen at the time of the crusade and would have that much more trouble against a united Iom at the hieght of it's power and would possibly be even CLOSER to extinction than they are now. The Dark Eldar are hardly a large scale threat in the current setting so no big shakes there, and the Tau would pretty much just be a speed bump at the rim of the segmentum.

So that leaves (if I'm not mistaken), the 'Crons, the Orks and the 'Nids. The Old Crons could have been a bigger threat due to fully functioning C'tan (who likely would have completely annihilated the severly weakened Chaos gods), but in their current incarnation, and considering that they are just isolated pockets, I don't see them doing severe mass trauma unless they can somehow manage to get everyone awake and moving at the same time. Which won't happen imo. So it's down to the nids and Orks. For the nids, I'm not sure if they would still be drawn into the galaxy by the Astronomicon. I can't remember how that worked BEFORE Big E was put on the throne, but if they came, they could be an issue.

Finally the Orks. The HH books lead you to believe they were being absolutely butchered and forced back out of the galaxy left and right at the time of the Great Crusade. While I don't think the Orks would ever have been completely wiped out, I also don't think they'd have the foothold they have now. It would more be a case of fending off the occasional small scale incursion or even the large scale WAAAAGH!. With all the other threats pretty much at bay, I don't think the IoM would have too much issue beating them back.


So anyway, just my two sense.

@Tycho

The Astronomican worked as it does now, except the Emperor personally powered it as opposed to being fed with ten thousand psykers (which was supposed to be only a temporary measure, until work on the Imperial Webway was complete).

EDIT: I think we're underestimating the Dark Eldar. Even with the Webway under Imperial control, wandering around its darkest, lowest depths would prove difficult even for Great Crusade-era/style Imperial forces. They could be (along with the 'nids and oldcrons) the biggest enemies for a united Imperium.

@Tycho

The Astronomican worked as it does now, except the Emperor personally powered it as opposed to being fed with ten thousand psykers (which was supposed to be only a temporary measure, until work on the Imperial Webway was complete).

EDIT: I think we're underestimating the Dark Eldar. Even with the Webway under Imperial control, wandering around its darkest, lowest depths would prove difficult even for Great Crusade-era/style Imperial forces. They could be (along with the 'nids and oldcrons) the biggest enemies for a united Imperium.

Ah! Thanks for that. I figured the Astro. worked in some fashion but couldn't remember the specifics. That then, puts the Nids at the top of my threat list.

Now that I think about it though, you may have a point about the Dark Eldar. That point could apply to ALL Eldar. I mean, if the Chaos gods end up severely weakend (as was the Emps plan), does Slaanesh survive, and do the Dark Eldar then need to be constantly hiding and using hit and run tactics. Without the fear of Slaanesh, would they be able to raise a much larger military and really martial their forces? That's an interesting (and scary) possability.

Tycho wrote:
So that leaves (if I'm not mistaken), the 'Crons, the Orks and the 'Nids. The Old Crons could have been a bigger threat due to fully functioning C'tan (who likely would have completely annihilated the severly weakened Chaos gods

Even in the old codex it states that the one weakness of the C'tan is the warp. The only way they can really do anything to harm the Chaos gods is to finish the Void Dragons warp-blocker project.

Tycho wrote:


Now that I think about it though, you may have a point about the Dark Eldar. That point could apply to ALL Eldar. I mean, if the Chaos gods end up severely weakend (as was the Emps plan), does Slaanesh survive, and do the Dark Eldar then need to be constantly hiding and using hit and run tactics. Without the fear of Slaanesh, would they be able to raise a much larger military and really martial their forces? That's an interesting (and scary) possability.

Hmmm...the Dark Eldar, probably. The Craftworld Eldar probably not, since even with Slaanesh weakened, they would still fear losing control over themselves. Maybe they'd make a deal with the Imperium; unlikely but not impossible. Like abandoning the Craftworlds entirely and adopting a rural, lonely, but peaceful existence on Maiden Worlds and other reserved systems under Imperial protection. At least, that's what I would demand/offer the Craftworld Eldar if they wanted to negotiate long-term peace and coexistence.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Except by discarding its ideals, the Imperium has condemned itself to a slow death.

Still better than a quick death.

Also, the chief ideal of the Imperium has been and always will be the survival of Mankind. Anything else is literally just a means to an end, be it the Space Marines or the Ecclesiarchy.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:Except by discarding its ideals, the Imperium has condemned itself to a slow death.

Still better than a quick death.

Is it?

Also, the chief ideal of the Imperium has been and always will be the survival of Mankind. Anything else is literally just a means to an end, be it the Space Marines or the Ecclesiarchy.

That is its goal. Its ideals were reason and technological certainty.

Admiral Valerian wrote:That is its goal. Its ideals were reason and technological certainty.

You make it sound as if the Adeptus Mechanicus is a Post-Heresy thing.

Reason is fairly subjective as well. I don't think the Emperor cared much how the planets he conquered were governed, or which social policies were instituted there. Unless we are to assume that the High Lords actually countermanded one of the Emperor's decrees - but given that they didn't even do this for the Land Raiders ...

Even in the old codex it states that the one weakness of the C'tan is the warp. The only way they can really do anything to harm the Chaos gods is to finish the Void Dragons warp-blocker project.

That's not exactly correct. They were actually anathema to the warp. It did not weaken them. The Warp Blocker was to help weaken the Chaos gods so they could be finished off. If the Emperor had succeeded in completing the Crusade and creating a secular universe that would have had the same effect on the Chaos gods as the Warp blocker. At that point even Khorne would have been easy takings for the Nightbringer.

GC-era Imperium was an entirely different ballgame. The Astartes were more numerous and far more well-organized/capable. None of this BS of 300 space marines taking a planet. No, you'd get hit by 13,000 instead on a regular basis. The Imperial Army was far more advanced, described as having entire full-strength Regiments of Baneblades. The Collegia Titanica had far more warmachines and the Imperial Fleet had many more of the more advanced ancient designs that are a rarity in M41. You also had the Sisters of Silence and the Adeptus Custodes actively taking part in the fighting, the former of which could seriously mess up Daemons and the Eldar.

Not to mention the Primarchs and Emperor on top of that. So yeah, I don't think any faction in M41 could stand against them. Pretending that the Legio Astartes were at full-strength will simultaneously being attacked by Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade, I think the Imperial forces could crush it somewhat easily.

Full-strength Tyranids and pre-retcon Necrons could still pose serious challenges though. But Ghazghkull, while formidable in M41, seems like he isn't nearly at the level Blackflang or the Ullanor Warboss were.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:That is its goal. Its ideals were reason and technological certainty.

You make it sound as if the Adeptus Mechanicus is a Post-Heresy thing.

In a way yes. AFAIK, the title 'Adeptus Mechanicus' was never adopted until after the Horus Heresy. Before, they were simply the Mechanicum. And while they had the same religious doctrines and dogma, unlike their post-Heresy incarnation the Mechanicum was actually re-discovering and developing technologies at a rate unseen since the Golden Age of Technology ended. They also understood what they were building, and didn't forget anything. Probably because the Emperor encouraged innovation, daring, and creativity so long as the commandment against AI technology was followed.

Reason is fairly subjective as well. I don't think the Emperor cared much how the planets he conquered were governed, or which social policies were instituted there. Unless we are to assume that the High Lords actually countermanded one of the Emperor's decrees - but given that they didn't even do this for the Land Raiders ...

IIRC, Monarchia was meant to drive home the Emperor's proscriptions against religion. Did they forget?

Admiral Valerian wrote:In a way yes. AFAIK, the title 'Adeptus Mechanicus' was never adopted until after the Horus Heresy. Before, they were simply the Mechanicum. And while they had the same religious doctrines and dogma, unlike their post-Heresy incarnation the Mechanicum was actually re-discovering and developing technologies at a rate unseen since the Golden Age of Technology ended. They also understood what they were building, and didn't forget anything. Probably because the Emperor encouraged innovation, daring, and creativity so long as the commandment against AI technology was followed.

Throughout the millennia, the Mechanicum did not change at all. They received a new prefix, a seat on the Council of High Lords, and new trade contacts. Other than that? The fact that the Mechanicus' Forge Worlds were allowed to remain sovereign satellite states ultimately means that neither the Emperor nor the High Lords had anything to do with the ongoing devolution. Tech-mysticism was already fairly ingrained into the Mechanicus back then - and worse yet, as it was incorporated into the wider Imperium it actually spread to other worlds. The High Lords of today encourage innovation and daring just as much as the Emperor did back then. If you want to blame anyone, look no further than the Fabricator-General and his little cult.

Admiral Valerian wrote:IIRC, Monarchia was meant to drive home the Emperor's proscriptions against religion. Did they forget?

Never read those novels, and don't plan to change that - but keep in mind that "reason" extends far beyond simply getting rid of religious superstition. What about slavery? Equality? Technological uplift? A constitution? Diplomatic contact with alien species?

You seem to limit the issue on "religion" vs "no religion" when there is so much more to it. How do the Night Lords' Emperor-approved terror tactics against civilian populations fit into "reason", for example? You can justify it with the greater good - but the same trick works for the Ecclesiarchy, and any other medieval instrument the Imperium is employing to maintain its grip on the member worlds.

Current era, the Necrons if they woke up. Orks, the crusade never had much luck with them before, beating some but never all. The Nids, and Dark age level Eldar as well, although they did not do all that hot with current craftworld eldar either.

The One and only thing the Crusade era IoM had on anyone was numbers and coordination. Take those away and you hwill hurt them badly.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:IIRC, Monarchia was meant to drive home the Emperor's proscriptions against religion. Did they forget?

Never read those novels, and don't plan to change that - but keep in mind that "reason" extends far beyond simply getting rid of religious superstition. What about slavery? Equality? Technological uplift? A constitution? Diplomatic contact with alien species?

Humans don't keep slaves. All are equal under the Imperial Administration of Terra. The Imperial Truth set aside faith, superstition, and organized religion for reason, logic, and technological certainty. A constitution is unnecessary under a benevolent dictatorship. Diplomacy with xenos is meaningless when they too place their own interests above that of others and even at Humanity's cost; just look at the Cabal. Why should Humanity treat them any differently?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

The One and only thing the Crusade era IoM had on anyone was numbers and coordination. Take those away and you hwill hurt them badly.

They had the Imperial Truth - reason and technological certainty. In other words, they had more brains.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Humans don't keep slaves. All are equal under the Imperial Administration of Terra. The Imperial Truth set aside faith, superstition, and organized religion for reason, logic, and technological certainty. A constitution is unnecessary under a benevolent dictatorship. Diplomacy with xenos is meaningless when they too place their own interests above that of others and even at Humanity's cost; just look at the Cabal. Why should Humanity treat them any differently?

Humans do keep slaves. They're just called "indentured workers". Most often it is the unfortunate mutant workforce, but on all too many worlds it is a simple feudal caste-based system where the local nobility lords over the peasantry with absolute power. Furthermore, I assure you that not every single planetary governor was a "benevolent dictator" - and "technological certainty" did not exist ever since the Emperor drew Mars and the Cult Mechanicus back into the Imperium, thereby sanctioning the mystification of knowledge in exchange for a short-term boost in technology transfer and production power.

As for diplomacy - I would assume that there are many examples where the interests of xenos and those of humanity coincide. There have never been two sovereign nations where one would not place its interests above the other. Does that mean we should do away with diplomacy in our real world?

 Lynata wrote:
Furthermore, I assure you that not every single planetary governor was a "benevolent dictator" - and "technological certainty" did not exist ever since the Emperor drew Mars and the Cult Mechanicus back into the Imperium, thereby sanctioning the mystification of knowledge in exchange for a short-term boost in technology transfer and production power.

The benevolent dictator I was referring to is the Emperor and the Imperial Administration of Terra. And when I meant technological certainty, I meant people placing their trust in rational thinking as opposed to 'clapping their hands if they believe'.

There have never been two sovereign nations where one would not place its interests above the other. Does that mean we should do away with diplomacy in our real world?

That's different. The difference between negotiating with Humans and xenos is as great as the distance between Heaven and Earth. Kinda hard to empathize with something that looks, well, alien.

EDIT: As for the mutant workforce, at the risk of sounding bigoted, I find it impossible to sympathize with something that looks like a freak of nature. Which 40k mutants are; their mutations aren't like 'normal' mutations/random quirks like dimples, freckles, purple irises, etc.

Hahaha all are equal under the Imperial Administration of Terra. Yeah much. The IOM is founded upon slavery. Every menial laborer is a slave. I'm sorry, but it's basically in every other word Valerian. Sorry Valerian you are shooting way off there.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Hahaha all are equal under the Imperial Administration of Terra. Yeah much. The IOM is founded upon slavery. Every menial laborer is a slave. I'm sorry, but it's basically in every other word Valerian. Sorry Valerian you are shooting way off there.

You got me there

But then again, the definition of slave I was working on is the Dark Eldar definition. The Imperial definition is close to or even the same as the Roman standard.

If the current factions can't even overcome the existing fractured and stretched-thin Imperium, I don't see how they could defeat the Great-Crusade era Imperium.

Admiral Valerian wrote:The benevolent dictator I was referring to is the Emperor and the Imperial Administration of Terra. And when I meant technological certainty, I meant people placing their trust in rational thinking as opposed to 'clapping their hands if they believe'.

Oh, that's what I thought - but at the end of the day, people won't give two gaks about what the Emperor on faraway Terra is or isn't doing. What matters is what his appointed governor does where they live. And I do not think the Emperor cared much for how the countless humans under his rule actually feel, as long as his armies receive the tithe they require to continue his wars. Just like the Imperium of M41, the Emperor dismissed notions such as enlightenment or comfort for his subjects in favour of mere survival and strength in unity.

Admiral Valerian wrote:That's different. The difference between negotiating with Humans and xenos is as great as the distance between Heaven and Earth. Kinda hard to empathize with something that looks, well, alien.

I don't know, I do not think I would have much difficulty talking to an Eldar or a Tau. Sure, there are others where it might be more difficult based on how they look - but isn't this what we as humans should strive to overcome? Judging a book solely on its cover? If you wish to advertise rational thinking, this is part of it.

Admiral Valerian wrote:EDIT: As for the mutant workforce, at the risk of sounding bigoted, I find it impossible to sympathize with something that looks like a freak of nature.

Understandable, from a human PoV - but also not very rational of you.

Our own real world civilisation used to put such "freaks of nature" into circuses and zoos and showcase them to the public for money. I for one am glad that this practise has been abandoned, at least officially.

 Lynata wrote:
I don't know, I do not think I would have much difficulty talking to an Eldar or a Tau. Sure, there are others where it might be more difficult based on how they look - but isn't this what we as humans should strive to overcome? Judging a book solely on its cover? If you wish to advertise rational thinking, this is part of it.

Gav Thorpe's novels aside, only a really talented Human psyker could begin to deal with Eldar reliably, and only someone on the level of a Primarch or either Malcador and the Emperor themselves could hope to think on the same level as those pointy-eared aliens. Tau make use of mind-control - mind-control helmets, pheromones, re-education camps - they're not exactly much more trustworthy than the Eldar or the Imperium itself.

Admiral Valerian wrote:EDIT: As for the mutant workforce, at the risk of sounding bigoted, I find it impossible to sympathize with something that looks like a freak of nature.

Understandable, from a human PoV - but also not very rational of you.

True enough...guess I'm just too Human, huh?

Our own real world civilisation used to put such "freaks of nature" into circuses and zoos and showcase them to the public for money. I for one am glad that this practise has been abandoned, at least officially.

What do we them 'now' though? Come to think of it, the subject of real-life mutants (naturally excluding mundane mutations like dimples, freckles, etc.) is somewhat painfully lacking in material.

EDIT: I dare anyone to try negotiating with Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Orks, or Necrons

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The One and only thing the Crusade era IoM had on anyone was numbers and coordination. Take those away and you hwill hurt them badly.

And a psyker powerful enough to take on the combined might of the Chaos Gods and win.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
I don't know, I do not think I would have much difficulty talking to an Eldar or a Tau. Sure, there are others where it might be more difficult based on how they look - but isn't this what we as humans should strive to overcome? Judging a book solely on its cover? If you wish to advertise rational thinking, this is part of it.

Gav Thorpe's novels aside, only a really talented Human psyker could begin to deal with Eldar reliably, and only someone on the level of a Primarch or either Malcador and the Emperor themselves could hope to think on the same level as those pointy-eared aliens. Tau make use of mind-control - mind-control helmets, pheromones, re-education camps - they're not exactly much more trustworthy than the Eldar or the Imperium itself.

There is no proof for mind control helmets. What people seem to forget is that the insectoid Vespid society and Tau society might have quite a few things in common. The ability to reliably communicate might have been all that was required to create an alliance. Tau pheromones are equaly unlikely. Whatever effect the Etheral cast seems to have on the other castes, it is inconsistent with the way pheromones work.
Reeducation camps are not truly mind control since they do not actualy enable you to control a person's mind. They merely help to feed the victims with your propaganda of choice.

The Tau might not be trustworthy but they are not genocidial, borderline insane lunatics like the Imperium ( let us trust the guys who would worship a toaster!) or genocidial spaceelfs with a superiority complex.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Gav Thorpe's novels aside, only a really talented Human psyker could begin to deal with Eldar reliably, and only someone on the level of a Primarch or either Malcador and the Emperor themselves could hope to think on the same level as those pointy-eared aliens. Tau make use of mind-control - mind-control helmets, pheromones, re-education camps - they're not exactly much more trustworthy than the Eldar or the Imperium itself.

Why would you need to be a psyker to simply talk with people and strike a deal? I would say it happens often enough in various stories, though due to my limited proficiency in BL novels I can only think of DoW Winter Assault as an example for a successful collaboration. The IG General and Farseer Taldeer basically agreed to combine their forces against the greater threat - and what works there could easily work on a grander scale as well. That it does not is, or so I would assume, largely a result of the Imperium's xenophobia.

As for the Tau, I did not adopt the Xenology author's idea about any pheromones - though there is no "right" or "wrong" opinion on this subject, just conflicting preferences and interpretations. I for one prefer my Tau to be more "political", working to undermine and influence populations via diplomacy, economic dependence and propaganda, rather than simply mind-controlling everyone.

Admiral Valerian wrote:What do we them 'now' though?

That's ... a good question. I would assume they receive medical treatment intended to "normalise" them, allowing them to lead a somewhat ordinary life.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Come to think of it, the subject of real-life mutants (naturally excluding mundane mutations like dimples, freckles, etc.) is somewhat painfully lacking in material.

Hmmh, I don't know, I stumbled over lots of articles on that topic. I guess it's just not a "popular" thing nowadays, else more people would be aware. I distinctively recall reading about Chernobyl babies being born without eyes a few months back, tho. Gruesome story. And it had pictures.

KingDeath wrote:There is no proof for mind control helmets.

Wasn't that in the Codex, though? I recall it was worded somewhat like this, too.