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I've been getting my ass handed to me by my friend that plays daemons and can't think of a legitmate way to play against his army. Last game we played he killed all tacticals/rhino's in the first game, leaving me with a lrc and a tfc, which quickly died on the second turn. I can't seem to survive past turn 2 against a daemon list with max flamers, even with null zone, so what have been your strategies with playing against the new daemons?

Take Coteaz as an ally and bring a squad of Purifiers w/ Psybolt and 4x Psycannon. That along will have a huge impact - forcing him to deep strike far away from your Prescienced 'I've been Expecting You...' unit. Grab a squad of henchmen to go with

Null Zone nearby would be gravy on top of that and anything coming wiht in 12" of Coteaz is going to eat 12 S5 shots and 16 S7 shots with rerolls of hits an 1s to wound.

Agree Coatez but I'd take Psilencers against daemons. You kill daemons by forcing saves (a 5++ only goes so far) and psilencers bring the dakka to do it.

These are the steps to do well vs daemons. Its hard, as daemons are the premire codex right now.

Null Zone
I know your doing it, but keep it up. Null zone kills daemons like flamers. Even screamers are hurt by it -- though they will likely be using their cover save.


Stick in your boxes
Deploy in rhinos and stay in them. Don't come out on the turn the daemons deep strike. This will give you one round of protection. On that turn, shoot the snot out of them with null zone.


Combat Squad
Any time you can combat squad, do so. This is extremely helpful for when you want to avoid getting killed. This means that instead of killing 10 marines, your going to lose 5.


Deploy on Board Edges
Drop your rhinos on the board edge. This makes it much more likely for him to mishap off the board.


Sacrifice a Squad
Sometimes you will want to sacrifice a squad to get that assault off on the flamers. If there is only 1 guy left in a squad, rush him in and let him get burned to death. Then assault with your other guys. Its better, even with tactical marines, to be in assault with flamers than getting shot by them.


Be a Douche with the Mishap
Did he mishap and you get to place the model? Feel free to drop it right on your model. Oh, look he mishapped again! Roll on the mishap chart.
This is useful for extremely fast units like screamers that can get to anywhere on the board no matter where you put them. If this happens with bloodcrushers, or plauge bearers you might consider putting them into a spot of your choice. In the prior case, put them on the other side of the board, in the latter case drop them right in front of your troops for easy meat.


Leave land raiders at home
Land Raiders don't help vs daemons. Screamers will tear them up, and flamers will just break them in a turn. There is no easy way to make them work.


Mass bolter fire
Flamers/Screamers are very vulnerable to massed bolter fire. Bolter fire is more important than PGs, ACs, or any other neat tricks. Bolter fire with Null Zone is just brutal vs flamers changing thier saves from 1/3 to 1/9. Its not that hard to get 50+ bolter shots on a squad of flamers.


Use Combat Tactics
Any time screamers assault you, fall back with combat tactics. Its not guaranteed, but when its works, you can fall back out of the assault and shoot the screamers.


Sit in Cover
Don't be afraid to sit in cover. Screamers don't have gernades, so if he assaults you in cover your striking first. This can help whittle down the number of screamers in assault with you. This is even better if Null Zone has been dropped.


Consider IG Allies
Something as simple as an 'Officer of the Fleet' can really piss of a daemon player. Moving that reserve roll to 4+ really sucks when you missed your perferred wave. Three chimeras full of PGs can also do a number on daemons


Consider GK Allies
Strike squads casting warp quake is a kick in the ass for daemons. It stops the alpha strike dead cold in its tracks. As an added bonus, the strike squads have a lot of bolter fire.
Two strike squads carefully placed in your army will make it extremely hard for the daemon player to alpha strike you.

 labmouse42 wrote:
These are the steps to do well vs daemons. Its hard, as daemons are the premire codex right now.

Null Zone
I know your doing it, but keep it up. Null zone kills daemons like flamers. Even screamers are hurt by it -- though they will likely be using their cover save.


Stick in your boxes
Deploy in rhinos and stay in them. Don't come out on the turn the daemons deep strike. This will give you one round of protection. On that turn, shoot the snot out of them with null zone.


Combat Squad
Any time you can combat squad, do so. This is extremely helpful for when you want to avoid getting killed. This means that instead of killing 10 marines, your going to lose 5.


Deploy on Board Edges
Drop your rhinos on the board edge. This makes it much more likely for him to mishap off the board.


Sacrifice a Squad
Sometimes you will want to sacrifice a squad to get that assault off on the flamers. If there is only 1 guy left in a squad, rush him in and let him get burned to death. Then assault with your other guys. Its better, even with tactical marines, to be in assault with flamers than getting shot by them.


Be a Douche with the Mishap
Did he mishap and you get to place the model? Feel free to drop it right on your model. Oh, look he mishapped again! Roll on the mishap chart.
This is useful for extremely fast units like screamers that can get to anywhere on the board no matter where you put them. If this happens with bloodcrushers, or plauge bearers you might consider putting them into a spot of your choice. In the prior case, put them on the other side of the board, in the latter case drop them right in front of your troops for easy meat.


Leave land raiders at home
Land Raiders don't help vs daemons. Screamers will tear them up, and flamers will just break them in a turn. There is no easy way to make them work.


Mass bolter fire
Flamers/Screamers are very vulnerable to massed bolter fire. Bolter fire is more important than PGs, ACs, or any other neat tricks. Bolter fire with Null Zone is just brutal vs flamers changing thier saves from 1/3 to 1/9. Its not that hard to get 50+ bolter shots on a squad of flamers.


Use Combat Tactics
Any time screamers assault you, fall back with combat tactics. Its not guaranteed, but when its works, you can fall back out of the assault and shoot the screamers.


Sit in Cover
Don't be afraid to sit in cover. Screamers don't have gernades, so if he assaults you in cover your striking first. This can help whittle down the number of screamers in assault with you. This is even better if Null Zone has been dropped.


Consider IG Allies
Something as simple as an 'Officer of the Fleet' can really piss of a daemon player. Moving that reserve roll to 4+ really sucks when you missed your perferred wave. Three chimeras full of PGs can also do a number on daemons


Consider GK Allies
Strike squads casting warp quake is a kick in the ass for daemons. It stops the alpha strike dead cold in its tracks. As an added bonus, the strike squads have a lot of bolter fire.
Two strike squads carefully placed in your army will make it extremely hard for the daemon player to alpha strike you.

Eh, I've used almost all of these tactics really(will take out the lr though, it was useless). Rhinos are death traps against daemons, they'll break them open with bolt and then just flame the nicely bunched up marines. Cover doesn't do much as everything in the army just doesn't care about cover saves or iniative order. Combat tactics doesn't really come into play as daemons don't cause casualities to units, they wipe em out all together in a turn. I'm thinking of just throwing a flyer in there as they have a difficult time doing anything to a flyer and maybe some guard allies like you say, would really slow down the army at least.

 labmouse42 wrote:


Be a Douche with the Mishap
Did he mishap and you get to place the model? Feel free to drop it right on your model. Oh, look he mishapped again! Roll on the mishap chart.
This is useful for extremely fast units like screamers that can get to anywhere on the board no matter where you put them. If this happens with bloodcrushers, or plauge bearers you might consider putting them into a spot of your choice. In the prior case, put them on the other side of the board, in the latter case drop them right in front of your troops for easy meat.

This does not work as advertised at the top of the post - you cannot force continued mishaps until a destroyed or back in reserves result happens. You can put them in a far corner of the board OR put them right within 12" of Coteaz so he can blow them to pieces.

Storm Talons are very good against most Daemon armies too.

Dawnofthedoug wrote:

Eh, I've used almost all of these tactics really(will take out the lr though, it was useless). Rhinos are death traps against daemons, they'll break them open with bolt and then just flame the nicely bunched up marines. Cover doesn't do much as everything in the army just doesn't care about cover saves or iniative order. Combat tactics doesn't really come into play as daemons don't cause casualities to units, they wipe em out all together in a turn. I'm thinking of just throwing a flyer in there as they have a difficult time doing anything to a flyer and maybe some guard allies like you say, would really slow down the army at least.

Then you haven't been using those tactics very well, because outside of the "be a douche and cheat by putting his mishapping units into an illegal postition", every one of tactics are sound.

As a Daemon player, here is how you beat this filth with MEQ's;
a) Deployment.
Castle-up in a corner. Daemons will ALWAYS come at you - even the shooty ones because outside of a Soul Grinder's Phlem shot, their shooting at best is just 24." (well within your standard Bolter range). What castling also does, is deny the Daemon player space to place their large squads of Screamers after the make their fly-by attacks. If they can't be legally placed, then they can't swoop over you and cause damage.
- 'Bubble Warp' important units. Simply put, place a 'buffer' unit that is expendible around your key units. Even a 4"- 6" gap isn't big enough enough to fit those Screamers. And it makes trying to Deep Strike agressively very, very dangerous for the Daemon player.
- DEPLOY IN YER TRANSPORTS!!! If he's taking max Flamers & Screamers, he's got almost no pts left for spaming Bolts on his better shooters. 1-2 transports aren't enough, give one to every squad that can take one, especially your critical units.
What happense then is, he drops in, his Flamers pop a bunch of 50pts metal boxes, and then he sits about waiting to eat massed bolter!

b) Take some anti-infantry weapons!!!
Daemons don't give a flying rat's fart about gak like lascannons, plasma guns, meltaguns and such because they're all Eternal Warriors who are Fearless and come packed with invuln saves.
As a Daemon player however, I gak myself when see things like heavy bolters, ass-cans, massed autocannons and god fething forbid, flamers!!!
Combine some solid anti-horde weapon upgrades alongside your basic bolters AND *shudder* Null Zone, and watch those Flamers/Screamer explode like fireworks! (which also come in every known colour for added entertainment! )

c) Deploy/move into cover.
Yes, those Flamers ignore cover with their Breath of Chaos. Warpfire doesn't, niether does Daemonic Gaze and niether does Bolt of Tzeentch.
Outside of Slaaneshii units & Nurgle HQ's/Princes, Daemons don't have offensive grenades. So those Screamers are now I1 if they charge you. Same as those Bloodcrushers too!

d) Bring your own invulns to the party.
You have two solid Elites options for hunting down Flamers. Namely, Hammernators and Legion of the Damned. USE THEM!
Flamers are only dangerous when you let them run about - they suck hardcore in assaults. Now sure, a Tactical or Assault squad will get mashed trying to assault the buggers. Hammernators won't however since you still get a 3++, while the Legion can bolter-love them and then junkshot them in combat.
Also, bring some Scouts. Flamers & Screamers are ment to be hard-counters to 3+ and 2+ saves. Scouts are only a 4+, so the Daemons' abilities are of far less value. A 10 man Scout squad is worthwhile as it adds more bolters and can be used as inexpensive bubblewrap for other keeping other squads safe.

e) Use allies.
As said, bring in some IG for numbers, or be a jerk and bring some GK's, cast Warp Quake and just laugh your opponent off the board if you're really that desperate.

 calypso2ts wrote:
Take Coteaz as an ally and bring a squad of Purifiers w/ Psybolt and 4x Psycannon. That along will have a huge impact - forcing him to deep strike far away from your Prescienced 'I've been Expecting You...' unit. Grab a squad of henchmen to go with

Null Zone nearby would be gravy on top of that and anything coming wiht in 12" of Coteaz is going to eat 12 S5 shots and 16 S7 shots with rerolls of hits an 1s to wound.

Problem being with Flamers is that only one or two can obliterate an entire squad of Marines. You're better off taking Strike Squads, saving points and popping Warp Quake to give you two or more turns of shooting before the Flamers get in range.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Be a Douche with the Mishap
Did he mishap and you get to place the model? Feel free to drop it right on your model. Oh, look he mishapped again! Roll on the mishap chart.
This is useful for extremely fast units like screamers that can get to anywhere on the board no matter where you put them. If this happens with bloodcrushers, or plauge bearers you might consider putting them into a spot of your choice. In the prior case, put them on the other side of the board, in the latter case drop them right in front of your troops for easy meat.

This isn't how deep-striking mishaps work. I realise this is a bit of a point of contention, but the rule states to place them anywhere on the table, in a legal deep-striking formation, without rolling for scatter. You can only roll for a mishap if the unit can't be placed on the table. If the unit can't be placed on the table, then you've failed to satisfy the requirement of the mishap in the first place. You can't drop them on your own troops any more than you can drop them off the table.

I'm not sure how this works with active Warp Quake zones, but I feel it would be a curly question. I mean, you can't deploy the unit, then take it back off the board and roll for a mishap again, but at the same time the unit is clearly arriving via deep-strike and we all know what happens when you deep strike into an active Warp Quake.

mmmm try this tactic... go to a church, had some holly water. Trow the holly water at the face of your opponent. Say I win...

 Kaldor wrote:


Problem being with Flamers is that only one or two can obliterate an entire squad of Marines. You're better off taking Strike Squads, saving points and popping Warp Quake to give you two or more turns of shooting before the Flamers get in range.

They can but by the time Coteaz is done with them, there won't be any left. With Prescience and a unit of purifiers (ignore coteaz's eagle), you are going to get 12 Bolter shots and 16 psycannon. That is 11 bolter hits and 15 psycannon hits w/ preferred enemy that translates into 8 bolters and 14 psycannon wounds or 22 wounds. After their 5+ you put down 14 wounds and kill 7 flamers. Even if those two flamers take down 5 purifiers (10 template hits are a lot) you still wrecked the squad. As a Daemon player I avoid Coteaz's bubble far more often than skirting the edge of warp quake.

I am also going to disagree with deploying in a corner in anything other than a kill points game. The Daemon player will just throw all those units you cannot ignore at you and eliminate your manueverability. By the time the mess clears, even if you trashed 27 flamers/screamers - there is no time to actually claim objectives.

 calypso2ts wrote:
After their 5+ you put down 14 wounds and kill 7 flamers. Even if those two flamers take down 5 purifiers (10 template hits are a lot) you still wrecked the squad. As a Daemon player I avoid Coteaz's bubble far more often than skirting the edge of warp quake.

Granted, but then those two flamers obliterate your Purifiers, and the other 18 deploy unmolested and proceed to wreck face.

It's a neat trick, and it would certainly make a Daemon player think twice about deploying there, but I think a Warp Quake bubble is more efficient and reliable.

The best advice I can give you is to take either Coteaz or an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, two Strike Squads and an Interceptor squad. Deploy the strikes so that they give maximum Warpquake coverage, and the interceptors can shunt and then pop warpquake, producing a rather large 'no go' area for Daemons, forcing them to deep strike into sub-optimal positions where you can just fill them with lead.

One thing I do find a little sad is that everyone's suggestions to deal with demons is usually always to ally with Grey Knights. That is not a good sign if you want a balanced take all comers list.

pepe5454 wrote:
One thing I do find a little sad is that everyone's suggestions to deal with demons is usually always to ally with Grey Knights. That is not a good sign if you want a balanced take all comers list.

Well, not counting their vulnerability to Warp Quake, the New Flamers and Screamers are bs units that are way too cheap. The best way to deal with a player who is spamming them is Warp Quake units.

Further, some GK allies are generally a pretty solid addition to most lists, hardly reducing their ability to take all comers.

Finally, unless you are preparing for a tournament, having one TAC list is a pretty boring way to play the game. I much prefer to tailor my lists to the codex, or type of codex I'll be facing, and IMO this is the superior way to play the game. It opens up the rest of the codex options for viable use (as opposed to the two or three units in any given codex which are considered 'good') instead of it being ignored in favour of more generic TAC lists, and I've found it really breathes life into old armies that can otherwise get stale.

I just like to do local tourneys and meet other players we have 2 a month around here and it's allot of fun and a great way to meet new gamers. I do play at home with my bro and what I found at my first tourney years ago was that my brother and I had created our armies to face eachother and got beat up pretty bad so I actually find it fun to come up with lists to take all comers. I do like to play fun games as well where I will just add units I normally don't play for fun but not because they are a good counter to what I will be facing heck I do that at tourneys sometimes to =)
Sorry don't want to hijack.

 Kaldor wrote:


Granted, but then those two flamers obliterate your Purifiers, and the other 18 deploy unmolested and proceed to wreck face.

It's a neat trick, and it would certainly make a Daemon player think twice about deploying there, but I think a Warp Quake bubble is more efficient and reliable.

2 flamers are going to kill Coteaz and 10 purifiers? Really? So they are each getting 10 hits on the unit? Who deploys like that? Not to mention the fact that the only way the other 18 make it in unmolested is if they DS outside Coteaz's range or come in the secondary wave.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dawnofthedoug wrote:

Eh, I've used almost all of these tactics really(will take out the lr though, it was useless). Rhinos are death traps against daemons, they'll break them open with bolt and then just flame the nicely bunched up marines. Cover doesn't do much as everything in the army just doesn't care about cover saves or iniative order. Combat tactics doesn't really come into play as daemons don't cause casualities to units, they wipe em out all together in a turn. I'm thinking of just throwing a flyer in there as they have a difficult time doing anything to a flyer and maybe some guard allies like you say, would really slow down the army at least.

Then you haven't been using those tactics very well, because outside of the "be a douche and cheat by putting his mishapping units into an illegal postition", every one of tactics are sound.

As a Daemon player, here is how you beat this filth with MEQ's;
a) Deployment.
Castle-up in a corner. Daemons will ALWAYS come at you - even the shooty ones because outside of a Soul Grinder's Phlem shot, their shooting at best is just 24." (well within your standard Bolter range). What castling also does, is deny the Daemon player space to place their large squads of Screamers after the make their fly-by attacks. If they can't be legally placed, then they can't swoop over you and cause damage.
- 'Bubble Warp' important units. Simply put, place a 'buffer' unit that is expendible around your key units. Even a 4"- 6" gap isn't big enough enough to fit those Screamers. And it makes trying to Deep Strike agressively very, very dangerous for the Daemon player.
- DEPLOY IN YER TRANSPORTS!!! If he's taking max Flamers & Screamers, he's got almost no pts left for spaming Bolts on his better shooters. 1-2 transports aren't enough, give one to every squad that can take one, especially your critical units.
What happense then is, he drops in, his Flamers pop a bunch of 50pts metal boxes, and then he sits about waiting to eat massed bolter!

b) Take some anti-infantry weapons!!!
Daemons don't give a flying rat's fart about gak like lascannons, plasma guns, meltaguns and such because they're all Eternal Warriors who are Fearless and come packed with invuln saves.
As a Daemon player however, I gak myself when see things like heavy bolters, ass-cans, massed autocannons and god fething forbid, flamers!!!
Combine some solid anti-horde weapon upgrades alongside your basic bolters AND *shudder* Null Zone, and watch those Flamers/Screamer explode like fireworks! (which also come in every known colour for added entertainment! )

c) Deploy/move into cover.
Yes, those Flamers ignore cover with their Breath of Chaos. Warpfire doesn't, niether does Daemonic Gaze and niether does Bolt of Tzeentch.
Outside of Slaaneshii units & Nurgle HQ's/Princes, Daemons don't have offensive grenades. So those Screamers are now I1 if they charge you. Same as those Bloodcrushers too!

d) Bring your own invulns to the party.
You have two solid Elites options for hunting down Flamers. Namely, Hammernators and Legion of the Damned. USE THEM!
Flamers are only dangerous when you let them run about - they suck hardcore in assaults. Now sure, a Tactical or Assault squad will get mashed trying to assault the buggers. Hammernators won't however since you still get a 3++, while the Legion can bolter-love them and then junkshot them in combat.
Also, bring some Scouts. Flamers & Screamers are ment to be hard-counters to 3+ and 2+ saves. Scouts are only a 4+, so the Daemons' abilities are of far less value. A 10 man Scout squad is worthwhile as it adds more bolters and can be used as inexpensive bubblewrap for other keeping other squads safe.

e) Use allies.
As said, bring in some IG for numbers, or be a jerk and bring some GK's, cast Warp Quake and just laugh your opponent off the board if you're really that desperate.

See, I think castling is the WORST thing you can do against a daemon player with max flamers. So I deploy in a corner, now my entire army is nicely stacked on top of each other nice and grouped up for maximum flamer damage. Also I'm now completly surrounded by daemons and have no mobility to get away from them.
* The bubble wrapping is a great tactic but I need a unit that can bubble wrap well, c:sm doesn't have many cheap expendble units(guard might be a good allie just to do this however).
*Deploying in transports is what I've been doing, but he does have enough points for bolt it seems as he has enough to pop 2 a turn it seems, which just leaves squads of tacs all bunched up ready for a flame.
Anti infantry fire power is great, but it dies way to quick. I have a tfc that would be great, but at most it gets one turn of shooting before it gets flamed off the board(very easy to do apparantly). Tac's would be good but since their transports get blown right away they're usually dead as well before I can return fire.

It seems what I need to do is find a way to push the daemons back, either with more bodies or with warpquake, which is a shame because while I'm not against using allies I don't like that I need them in order to compete against a good daemon list.

 calypso2ts wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:


Problem being with Flamers is that only one or two can obliterate an entire squad of Marines. You're better off taking Strike Squads, saving points and popping Warp Quake to give you two or more turns of shooting before the Flamers get in range.

They can but by the time Coteaz is done with them, there won't be any left. With Prescience and a unit of purifiers (ignore coteaz's eagle), you are going to get 12 Bolter shots and 16 psycannon. That is 11 bolter hits and 15 psycannon hits w/ preferred enemy that translates into 8 bolters and 14 psycannon wounds or 22 wounds. After their 5+ you put down 14 wounds and kill 7 flamers. Even if those two flamers take down 5 purifiers (10 template hits are a lot) you still wrecked the squad. As a Daemon player I avoid Coteaz's bubble far more often than skirting the edge of warp quake.

I am also going to disagree with deploying in a corner in anything other than a kill points game. The Daemon player will just throw all those units you cannot ignore at you and eliminate your manueverability. By the time the mess clears, even if you trashed 27 flamers/screamers - there is no time to actually claim objectives.

Castling works though against pure Flamer/Screamer spam;
- Yes, you're giving the Daemon player the run of the board so to speak, but you can still deploy terrain for example to create blindspots and force him to move into killzones using impassible terrain and/or difficult terrain. (which thus becomes dangerous for those Flamers & Screamers.)

- Objectives aren't as important vs this list either, because against MEQ's/TEQ's it has more than enough firepower to simply win by wipe-out. The MEQ player is playing to survive. Besides, in most objective games they can still deploy one or two objectives near enough to their defensive ring anyways.

- Finally and most importantly, the Daemon player is spending a whopping 1296pts on maxing out their two WAAC's options. So they have what left for their own HQ + 2x Troops and any other support?! This army cannot win objective games by grabbing objectives unless you're playing 2k or higher, unless you're saying that you can't kill maybe 10-16 or so Troops models!

Play smartly and this list folds, even to MEQ's.

You don't have to abuse Warp Quake either - that's the douche way out and is only proving you're no better than the jerk fielding max Flamers/Screamers.



@Kaldor: Yes, you can be a giant donkeycave and 'juggle' any 'Mispalced' mishap results into other quake zones, because you are fullfilling the only requirement of the 'misplaced' rule. A quake zone isn't impassible terrain or another model that would block deployment - it's simply an effect that kicks in after an otherwise legal deep strike has taken place.

Now, unless you're playing against TFG, this is about as low as you can get!
If you play this tactic against anyone other than a complete tool outside of a purely 100% powergamey event, you're a dirty, filthy hobo!

As a BA player, daemon players don't seem to appreciate fragnoughts. There's something about the frag cannon/heavy flamer combo they don't like

They also really don't seem to like my whirlwinds. The whirlwinds get lobbed at those unfortunate guys who rolled a "1" on their run rolls after the DS.

Yes, the flamers can absolutely murder anything when they come in. So you make it the murder as little as possible and then make sure they only get the one shot.

calypso2ts wrote:Take Coteaz as an ally and bring a squad of Purifiers w/ Psybolt and 4x Psycannon. That along will have a huge impact - forcing him to deep strike far away from your Prescienced 'I've been Expecting You...' unit. Grab a squad of henchmen to go with

Coteaz is very good GK HQ, but take Strikes instead of Purifiers. Strike Squads auto-mishap is 12" from any model from the squad, unlike Coteaz's bubble which is only from himself.

buddha wrote:Agree Coatez but I'd take Psilencers against daemons. You kill daemons by forcing saves (a 5++ only goes so far) and psilencers bring the dakka to do it.

Don't do this. You should never, ever take psilencer. Even against Daemons, Psycannon is better against all T4 models and against all models with armor save. The Psilencer advantage goes away if you have to move the unit with psilencers 2 times during the game, something that is pretty likely to happen.

As for OP, you basically have to use allies to win this fight: While nullzone is good, it will not protect you from Daemons. GK is the obvious first choice as Strike Squad or two will make using Flamers lot harder.

@pepe5454
The reason why everyone says "Take GK allies to counter Daemons" is because that is the most cost effective way to do it, while giving you unit that is useful even when not playing against Daemons. Other options are either too expensive or not efficient enough. So GK are actually the TAC option in this case, because if your army doesn't have counter of some sort for Daemons, it is not TAC list. Coteaz+Strikes will also work against Drop Pod armies, BA jumpers and other Deep Strikers.

@Experiment 626
Using Hammernators to charging Flamers is not a good idea. Wall of Death means on average 14 hits on those Hammernators when they charge 7-man flamer unit, so you'll lose 2-3 terminators before you even get to make the actual Charge move.

 Kaldor wrote:
This isn't how deep-striking mishaps work. I realise this is a bit of a point of contention, but the rule states to place them anywhere on the table, in a legal deep-striking formation, without rolling for scatter. You can only roll for a mishap if the unit can't be placed on the table. If the unit can't be placed on the table, then you've failed to satisfy the requirement of the mishap in the first place. You can't drop them on your own troops any more than you can drop them off the table.

Well, I guess we learn something new every day. Thanks for explaining it like that. The next time I have someone try and deep strike my mishaped units on top of others I will use this arguement.

Luide wrote:

As for OP, you basically have to use allies to win this fight: While nullzone is good, it will not protect you from Daemons. GK is the obvious first choice as Strike Squad or two will make using Flamers lot harder.

You most certainly DO NOT! have to take GK allies. That's only what you do if you don't know how to change your own tactics to meet the new threat.

Codex Marines have plenty of counters... Null Zone, Bolters, weapon upgrades like heavy b's/ass-cans/flamers/etc..., Bolters, cheap transports to hide in and avoid the initial strike, dakka preds/dreads, whirlwinds, yet more bolters, drop pods to deep strike the deep strikers, storm shields, Legion of the Damned, Combat Squads rule + Combat Tactics to break out of hopeless combats...

The only problem is how you limit your own list...
Yes, in a tournament you can't alter your list obviously. But considering you know that in a pick-up/friendly game you're going to challenge this Daemon player and play against this list, it's your own fault if you don't adapt and change up what doesn't work.

It's not like you're facing something as utterly douchebaggy as 3+ 10-man Warp Quake squads!

Luide wrote:

@Experiment 626
Using Hammernators to charging Flamers is not a good idea. Wall of Death means on average 14 hits on those Hammernators when they charge 7-man flamer unit, so you'll lose 2-3 terminators before you even get to make the actual Charge move.

So what?
a) If your Space Marine army only has enough small arms fire and anti-infantry guns to kill 2/9 Flamers before you assault them, then I'm afraid your list is simply pants.
T4/5++ Flamers are about as hard to kill as your average Ork Boy in average cover. (and even easier to kill if they're in a Null Zone.)
So if you can't kill what amounts to 10 or so Ork Boys in your own shooting phase in order to make 'Wall of Death' that much more survivable, it's time to look in the mirror to find where the real problem lies.

b) Sure, 7 Flamers on average kill 2-3 Hammernators with their 'Wall of Death' overwatch reaction. The surviving 2-3 Termies then tarpit and pound the crap out of WS2/S4 wet noodles.

Otherwise?
Try assaulting with multiple units. Combat Squads makes this a far easier tactic for Vanillas, BA's & DA's to pull off actually. The 'Wall of Death' action kills the 5 dudes from combat squad 'A', and now the Flamers are still locked up by the other 5 dudes from combat squad 'B'.
Those Flamers will take multiple turns to wipe out 5 MEQ's in combat, meaning you should have plenty of time to move something else in to help finish them off... (or even just leave them there while you deal with other threats)

Flamers in truth cannot fight for gak in assaults! Hell, the likes of Tau Fire Warriors will tarpit them for feth's sake! They really are nothing more than a two wound, nearly-naked Tactical Marine with WS2 and no ability to take any kind of ap upgrades.

With Coteaz as an ally and some purifiers you do need to take a troop unit too so a strike fits there nicely too.

Also, I love when an opponent castles in a corner or even in the center of the board. It guarantees they will have no maneuverability. The key against Daemons is to start dead center - or close to it with your troops at max coherency. Then contract to the side they do not Deep Strike on - most daemon players will overload a single flank and this gives you some room to breath.

The tactic being ignored is to go 2nd. There is no reason to go 1st unless you're rocking warp quake. Deamons might have allies, if so don't let the desire for 1st blood sucker you into going 1st.

Demonic troops don't do all that great in 6th, they really need ig or csm allied troops to hold some objectives. Just keep in mindnot to get too fixated on the allies during deployment, but don't forget about them until turn 5 to find them on objectives.

 schadenfreude wrote:
The tactic being ignored is to go 2nd. There is no reason to go 1st unless you're rocking warp quake. Deamons might have allies, if so don't let the desire for 1st blood sucker you into going 1st..

In 90% of games I find this to be true, but not always.

Once I played a 'nid player who had tons of infantry and some inflitrating genestealers. He took turn 1, and spread out covering a huge portion of the board. I was forced to deep strike all my units in one corner. Instead of a vicious alpha strike, I was able to wipe out just one unit.

To do that you need to have the ability to take up huge amounts of space quickly. Not many armies can do that, and on some deployments (hammer and anvil) it just wont work.

Land speeder storms, 6 inch bubble where he will scatter 4d6, instead of 2d6 also skyshield landing pad, 4++ save. Termies with TH SS to soak up flamer over watch (or throw some shotgun scouts at them to die on overwatch, at least you get 2 shots each first and can still charge. Null zone as has been mentioned a lot before, interceptor weapons.


Also, the turn his flamers deepstrike, he wont be able to use all his flamer templates, you probably know this but in case you didnt templates cannot touch friendly models.

MarkyMark wrote:
Also, the turn his flamers deepstrike, he wont be able to use all his flamer templates, you probably know this but in case you didnt templates cannot touch friendly models.

Most/All of them will still be able to use the flamer.

Watch how I deploy 3 Flamers. Your first flamer is in the center, then the next two go on either side. Each flamer can hit the target.


Watch how I deploy 5 Flamers. Start with the same deployment. I place the next two flamers in the front. This means 4 flamers can shoot their flame templates.


The next two must be deployed behind the first. This means you have 3 that cannot shoot flame templates. For the final two, place them on the outside, much like your first two. This gives you a total of 6 flame templates that can shoot when when drop 9 flamers.


Don't forget, the flamers that cannot shoot their flame template can still shoot their Assault 3, STR 4, AP5 gun at BS4. Thats another 9 'bolter' shots from the 9 man squad.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Luide wrote:

@Experiment 626
Using Hammernators to charging Flamers is not a good idea. Wall of Death means on average 14 hits on those Hammernators when they charge 7-man flamer unit, so you'll lose 2-3 terminators before you even get to make the actual Charge move.

So what?
a) If your Space Marine army only has enough small arms fire and anti-infantry guns to kill 2/9 Flamers before you assault them, then I'm afraid your list is simply pants.
T4/5++ Flamers are about as hard to kill as your average Ork Boy in average cover. (and even easier to kill if they're in a Null Zone.)

Point was that Hammernators are very poor unit to use counter Flamers. You should strive to kill them with shooting as CC will end badly.

Experiment 626 wrote:
So if you can't kill what amounts to 10 or so Ork Boys in your own shooting phase in order to make 'Wall of Death' that much more survivable, it's time to look in the mirror to find where the real problem lies.

While killing 3 flamers is enough to get those TH/SS to tarpit those flamers until end of game, it is not enough to allow anything else to to charge them. 6 flamers = 6 dead marines on overwatch.

Experiment 626 wrote:
b) Sure, 7 Flamers on average kill 2-3 Hammernators with their 'Wall of Death' overwatch reaction. The surviving 2-3 Termies then tarpit and pound the crap out of WS2/S4 wet noodles.

Actually, those "wet noodles" will beat the crap out of hammernators. It will take ~6 rounds of CC to happen, but the end result will that there are 3-4 Flamers alive and all your Hammernators are dead. If the Flamer squad is at full strength, end result will be that there are 7 flamers left at the end of round 3 of CC. You've now succesfully exchanged 200 points for 46 points and those Flamers have only lost one turn of shooting for all your trouble.

No, Hammernators are definitely not the counter for Flamers.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Otherwise?
Try assaulting with multiple units. Combat Squads makes this a far easier tactic for Vanillas, BA's & DA's to pull off actually. The 'Wall of Death' action kills the 5 dudes from combat squad 'A', and now the Flamers are still locked up by the other 5 dudes from combat squad 'B'.

Those Flamers will take multiple turns to wipe out 5 MEQ's in combat, meaning you should have plenty of time to move something else in to help finish them off... (or even just leave them there while you deal with other threats)

If will buy you around 2 turns. End resuld will be 5-6 Flamers alive after that.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Flamers in truth cannot fight for gak in assaults!

Here you are very, very wrong. You seem to think that WS2 somehow 'cripples' Flamers. It doesn't. In close combat against all WS4 or lover, Flamers do 75% effectiveness of Assault Marine while having same survivability. So when-ever you see 9 flamers and think 'those cannot fight gak for assaults', think would you say same of 6.75 Assault Marines?

Experiment 626 wrote:
Hell, the likes of Tau Fire Warriors will tarpit them for feth's sake! They really are nothing more than a two wound, nearly-naked Tactical Marine with WS2 and no ability to take any kind of ap upgrades.

I already showed you why you're wrong on this. In CC, each flamer does about 1.5x the damage Tactical Marine does, while having same survivability. Basically anything that will tarpit 9 flamers will also tarpit 14 tacticals or 7 assault marines.

Basically, every CC example you've given out is ineffective, because tarpits are supposed to be cheap. Sending 200 points of Hammernators to die against 207 points Flamers so that you get turn or two reprieve from their shooting is bad idea, because how do you counter the remaining two squads of flamers then? Answer sure is not "two more units of Hammernators".

So how do you counter Flamers with using only C:SM? Hard question. Skyshield landing pad might work. Using Transports might give one turn of protection or might lead to losing whole squads, as they will be clumped up pretty badly when the transports are wrecked. There is a good reason why pretty much everyone thinks the new Flamers are OP.

Experiment 626 wrote:
It's not like you're facing something as utterly douchebaggy as 3+ 10-man Warp Quake squads!

Warp Quake spam is only nasty against Daemons if GK player both gets the first turn and has Interceptor Squads that shunt into opponents deployment zone.
In other cases, it is far less douchebaggery than 27 flamer/27 screamer spam or using 6+ Scythe spam armies.

 labmouse42 wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Also, the turn his flamers deepstrike, he wont be able to use all his flamer templates, you probably know this but in case you didnt templates cannot touch friendly models.

Most/All of them will still be able to use the flamer.

Watch how I deploy 3 Flamers. Your first flamer is in the center, then the next two go on either side. Each flamer can hit the target.


Watch how I deploy 5 Flamers. Start with the same deployment. I place the next two flamers in the front. This means 4 flamers can shoot their flame templates.


The next two must be deployed behind the first. This means you have 3 that cannot shoot flame templates. For the final two, place them on the outside, much like your first two. This gives you a total of 6 flame templates that can shoot when when drop 9 flamers.


Don't forget, the flamers that cannot shoot their flame template can still shoot their Assault 3, STR 4, AP5 gun at BS4. Thats another 9 'bolter' shots from the 9 man squad.

The OP said opponent was running max flamers which is 12 is it not?, Personanly I dispute deepstriking like you have in the second picture, IMO it says to create a circle, not a semi or demi circle so with 5 flamers IMO it would be 1 guy in the middle and one guy at each point (I.e North East South West) thats how I always deepstrike my units but most people dont play that way. And feel free to 'bolter' the front of the rhino..... and with 6 flamers hitting the rhino, is that just glancing it to death?, nice and bunched up for some templates after killing 35pts of rhino

MarkyMark wrote:
The OP said opponent was running max flamers which is 12 is it not?

Its 9.

MarkyMark wrote:
IMO it says to create a circle, not a semi or demi circle so with 5 flamers IMO it would be 1 guy in the middle and one guy at each point (I.e North East South West) thats how I always deepstrike my units but most people dont play that way.

It does not say anything about how to build the circle. Read it again. It says to make concentric circles, so one must make the second circle complete before building the third circle.

Concentric objects share the same center, axis or origin. That's the only criteria of concentric. There is nothing about them being built in a specific pattern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentric

MarkyMark wrote:
And feel free to 'bolter' the front of the rhino..... and with 6 flamers hitting the rhino, is that just glancing it to death?, nice and bunched up for some templates after killing 35pts of rhino

Heh, usually I'm flaming units, not rhinos. The rhino was there to illustrate a point.