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I've got about a half dozen games under my belt with a pure Ravenwing list and I thought I'd share some of the things that really worked well with them.

1) Take the grenade launchers. It's hard to give up the talons, but in my squads I take as many of the GL as I can. Our weekly club meetings run like a tourney (soft comp, blind lists/opponents, timed matches) so having the variety of munitions is awesome. Radding Palladins, Slowing Reavers, Fragging IG, all worth it. Talons are awesome, but the grenades can really tip the scales.

2) Outflankling with a Bike chaplain can really screw an opponent. Just knowing that a deadly squad with 21" reach coming in is there, has made several opponents make some odd decisions... And when they come in, they live up to the hype.

3) Synergy with SM Libbies and DA Shrouds is a force multiplier. I gunned down Mortarion and a squad of TDA with a NullZone in tow. Turbo boosting around with a 2+ cover save us nice too.

4) Talons are actually a pretty strong AA weapon. TL, S 7, AP 2 and on a very mobile platform can really hurt some fliers. Not a great plan to be your only AA option, but keep the possibility in mind.

5) Keep a PAxe and MB in mind for your Huntmaster. YMMV, but again it an option that need to weigh. The Corvus Hammer is great, but sometime the PAxe is just better.

6) You are really good at CC vs MEQ and GEQ. Use it. Hit and Run makes these guys the rock stars of mobile warfare

I'm still in the formative stages as far as what I want to do with my 2 DV kits....

Can you share your experiences as far as maneuvering the Ravenwing Squads while keeping them inside the Darkshroud bubble? Do you find any difficulty or do you find it somewhat limiting to your movement and keeping all the units within the bubble? How many Darkshrouds do you use and do you find a problem with your Darkshrouds being a priority target for the enemy? Do Darkshrouds complement each other with Stealth/Shroud?

That's mostly what I'm concerned with. The idea of controlling all those cover saves with such a mobile and dynamic army sounds messy and it's why I'm still leaning towards DW or maybe just no-wing if I can find an IC other than Belial and Sammy that makes sense.

I just keep my leading edge in cover of the Shroud. 6-8 bikes at most stay in cover. The DShroud never does anything but flat out. When it finally drops, the amount of enemy firepower used to bring it down is almost humorous. Yeah it dies, but by then my knights are engaged and doing the whole hit and run thing.

So far I'm just running one, but I'll definetly add another one if I add another full BK squad.

Next week I most likely will face a pure Deathwing force... So that should be enlightening.

Ruleswise would 2 Shrouds both benefit from Stealth and Shrouded?

I'm surprised that you say Darkshrouds are difficult to kill, since they're only AV10, but your post definitely makes me warm up to making a RW list, so thank you!

Make sure and post a batrep for your game against a Deathwing list, and if you have a blog I wouldn't mind reading anything related to this.

The Shrouds are tough to kill, because the special rule (Shroud of Angels) is just by unit, not by model. This means you can daisy chain the units to and from the speeder. This makes it virtually impossible for anything to hit my Shroud at 24" or less (too many AP1 or AP 2 bikes in the way). That means only heavy weapons, and with the cover save only 1/3 of those shots that hit are even going to hurt. That means it could take a SM Devastator squad of 4 ML 2 turns to drop the Shroud. That's 36"-48" of movement for the Knights/Ravenwing Bike squads it's escorting, without figuring in turboboosting or charge distances. Like I said, it dies, but its worth its 80 points if it gets just 2 Black Knights into the fight that otherwise would have died (and its done at least that probably 5 of the 7 games I've used it... and in 1 of the games that cover save saved me from 2 squads of PC (LongFangs) trying to light up 2 squads of Ravenwing and a squad of Black Knights that then rolled up 2 GH packs and both those LF packs with pretty light losses).

And no, I'd say Shrouds can't give each other Stealth, but I'd be thrilled if someone could prove me wrong.

 Lobukia wrote:
5) Keep a PAxe and MB in mind for your Huntmaster. YMMV, but again it an option that need to weigh. The Corvus Hammer is great, but sometime the PAxe is just better.

Alas, since the FAQ they can only take swords or mauls.

 dæl wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
5) Keep a PAxe and MB in mind for your Huntmaster. YMMV, but again it an option that need to weigh. The Corvus Hammer is great, but sometime the PAxe is just better.

Alas, since the FAQ they can only take swords or mauls.

Too true, good catch

I'm currently torn between which is better, Bike Libby or Bike Chappy. I'm running both next weekend, but I'm not going to keep three HQs and two FOC.

A few quick questions about your list (mainly because ever since my DA codex has arrived I've been liking the look of RW over DW more and more)

A) How do you like to equip your RW Attack Squads? I'm leaning towards Melta everywhere since you get a ton of plasma on black knights, but I want to check to make sure.
B) What is your ideal squad size for your units, particularly RW Attack Squads and Black Knights. Along those lines, how many Black Knight squads do you take?
C) What is your plan to deal with AV12 fliers? The Vendetta and particularly the Helldrake seem like they would murder a pure RW list, mainly because of the lack of damage the ground forces can do to them.
D) What non RW units do you feel would work well with your list, if any?
E) What is the best unit to stick Sammael in?.

Exalted - how about divulging your list?

Okay here's the list... Its pure RW at 2K, but my club currently does 2.5k and everyone is running Deathstars and we have a house rule allowing either an Apoc unit (not more than 3 structure/shields net) or 2 IA units. Not all take advantage of it, but I've got that in mind as I build this. We have one or more of every dex most meetings, except Chaos Daemons, and play random opponents and blind lists every weekend (so you know where I'm coming from). I've faced SW, IG x2, Orks, DE, SM, and BA so far. Won them all, the SW was close until turn 4 and the DE looked close until turn 5 went heavily my way (finally had everything on and got the BK in CC). We have a DA player and a guy running Pre-Heresy Death Guard (with Mortarion) too. I've played little pick up games against them, but not the full on 2.5K battle yet.

HQ

Sammael
Interrogator Chappy with Auspex, Infravisor, Melta Bombs, and Bike
or
Mastery 2 Libby on Bike with Displacer

Troops

RWing Attack Squad with x2 Melta, MM Attack Bike, Typhoon with MM, vet Sarg with LC and MB
RWing Attack Squad with x2 Melta, MM Attack Bike, Typhoon with MM vet Sarg with LC and MB
RWing Attack Squad with x2 PG, MM Attack Bike, Typhoon with MM vet Sarg with LC and MB
5 man tactical squad with Flakk ML, Vet sarg, PF
5 man tactical squad with Flakk ML, Vet sarg

Fast

10 Rwing Black Knights with MB and x3 GL
5 Rwing Black Knights with MB and GL
Darkshroud

Other

ADL with Quad



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sammael goes with the RWing PG squad (which outflanks), giving them Inner Circle and Skilled Rider, and the 10 man BK squad goes into reserve with either Chappy or Libby. The rest is all up to the match settings and the opponent (usually combat squad the other two RWing Squads, but Outflank everything I can... meltas in the backfield is too deadly to pass up, the Shroud depends on whether I have initiative or not). Tacticals are my AA and they are behind the ADL and man the Quad.

Played a game yesterday against DA and another against DE. Hesperax was a challenge (literally) and large DW squads could be handled by Hit and Run BK, but I definetly can say that a Librarian, M2, is better than a Chaplain. Given the Divination choices and its primas, there's not much a Chappy can do better than a Libby.

I too have been struggling with the choice between a Chaplain or Librarian. I like that the Libbie can take the Mace of Redemption and also has access to the Divination table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lobukai - Im surprised youre not running the Banner of Devestation.

Did you find its just too hard to protect in a pure RW army?

Also, has your AA compliment been enough? Have you faced off against multiple Helldrakes?

The only thing I have to say about black knights is that I prefer to have them not charge for two reasons, first overwatching Plasma Talons rip up squads well worth the loss of the +1 attack.. Second, when combined with a Darkshroud, few units in the game are as good as bullet bags as black knights. Even when they don't turbo-boost they still have a 3+ cover save. I find the Black Knights ability to soak up fire for the rest of my army outweighs what they would have killed in close combat. You mentioned that it is humerous to watch the amount of fire that is dumped on the Darkshroud/black knights. I couldn't agree more. All the while the rest of your army is playing the role of drunk frat boy to their ugly girl home alone.

As for Libby versus chaplain...I don't see how the there is an argument. Librarian, always. Diviniation is on the verge of being broken. Almost all of the powers will greatly benefit your army. Scriers gaze for outflanking...ignoring cover...full BS for overwatch...Or re-rolling misses, for both shooting and CC. The chaplain can only do CC re-rolls.

Lobukai - Im surprised youre not running the Banner of Devestation.

Did you find its just too hard to protect in a pure RW army?

Ravenwing command squad. Once you pay the points for the apothecary and banner bearer, you are looking at 70 points a model, for 3 models with no ablative wounds. I can't justify that for a few more bolter shots. The only way I might run them is a bare bones command squad with just the Ravenwing banner. 135 points for 3 more black knights that ensure your army isnt stuck in CC. That kind of seems worth it.

I agree - the Libbie is my go-to guy over the Chaplain.

The Banner of Devastation though adds 75% more dakka to those bike squads. Typically, I get one twinlinked shot at 24 inches per bike. Within range of the banner, it goes up to 4 twinlinked shots per bike. Combined with hit and run and rad grenades, you are mowing down units wholesale - even flyers need to beware.

I have to admit though, its encouraging to see a Ravenwing army WITHOUT the banner of dakka doing well.

Don't Black Knights basically always have a 2+ cover save if they are within range of a Darkshroud? 5+ for moving because of Jink, +1 to their Jink save because of Skilled Rider, then the Darkshroud gives them +2 from Shrouded right? And can you take ML with 5 man Tac Squads? Also something I was wondering, does the Darkshroud benefit from it's own/another Darkshroud's Shroud of Angels rule?

Edit: Also I agree on the Command Squad/Devastation Banner. It seems nice but too expensive.

They dont get shrouded they receive Stealth which is +1.


They start with +5 jink, go to +4 because of skilled rider, go to +3 for turboboosting and then to +2 when within 6 inches of a Nightshroud because they receive Stealth from it.

My first outing with the DA dex was with an all RW army, no nightshroud, but included a CMD sqd and BoD. I really like the way it worked and am hesitant to give up that much firepower even with the fragility of the CMD SQD. Thats why its nice for me to see a list without it doing well.

Yes - you can take a 5 man Tactical sqd with a ML - with flakk even!

The Nightshroud does not benefit from Stealth because Stealth does not effect Nightshrouds. They do benefit from their own Shrouded ability though. And they add +1 to DA combat resolution within 12inches.

I thought it gave the Shroud special rule, I must have read it wrong. How tough is it to keep the attack squads within the banner range? Do all of the models need to be within the range, or just one for the model to benefit? I've haven't run a full Ravenwing army yet, but I am planning on it for a 1k point tournament and am really pumped for it. That ML rule it awesome, I didn't realize you could do that. I thought you needed the full 10 man squad for the HW.

Razakil wrote:
Don't Black Knights basically always have a 2+ cover save if they are within range of a Darkshroud? 5+ for moving because of Jink, +1 to their Jink save because of Skilled Rider, then the Darkshroud gives them +2 from Shrouded right? And can you take ML with 5 man Tac Squads? Also something I was wondering, does the Darkshroud benefit from it's own/another Darkshroud's Shroud of Angels rule?

Edit: Also I agree on the Command Squad/Devastation Banner. It seems nice but too expensive.

The Dark Shroud gives stealth, it HAS shrouded itself

Only one model from a unit needs to be within 6 inches to get Stealth. Be carefule though, testing it like that can lead to getting precision-shot and losing stealth.

The Banner of Devastation though adds 75% more dakka to those bike squads. Typically, I get one twinlinked shot at 24 inches per bike. Within range of the banner, it goes up to 4 twinlinked shots per bike. Combined with hit and run and rad grenades, you are mowing down units wholesale - even flyers need to beware.

I have to admit though, its encouraging to see a Ravenwing army WITHOUT the banner of dakka doing well.

I am used to the age before Ravenwing had options. Multi-melta was the only attack bike choice, and Heavy Bolter Assault cannon was the only Land speeder choice. To this day I still use those options, because I have found the Rock-Paper-Scissor approach to Ravenwing so effective. Bikes kill tanks and land speeders kill infantry (Black Knights just kill everything). So when all my bikes are packing melta guns and multi meltas, the standard of devastation seems like an enormous waste of points

I havent been using speeders much since 6th ed came out. The way the new RavenWing Attack Squadron (RAS) work now is that if you buy an attack bike with the squad, it separates and is treated as its own unit. Any bike that is also carrying a meltagun can always shoot its tl boltgun if it makes more sense. You have to choose though, one or the other. Attack bikes can shoot both as there are two riders.

How I use the formation is all melta most of the time. Small RAS squads (3 or 4 bikes) get a single flamer and I always add the MM Attack Bike. These flamer squads I will typically outflank.

Since the Attack Bikes are split off on their own, I wont miss their contribution to the dakka dice pool so much. Instead, I send them off to kill something that wont die to a S4 AP5 shot.

Speeders with 2 HP's are just too fragile for me. Though with Sammael leading your force and being added to a RAS, speeders will not give up VP's in the Scouring because they are Troops and not Fast Attack choices.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
I havent been using speeders much since 6th ed came out. The way the new RavenWing Attack Squadron (RAS) work now is that if you buy an attack bike with the squad, it separates and is treated as its own unit. Any bike that is also carrying a meltagun can always shoot its tl boltgun if it makes more sense. You have to choose though, one or the other. Attack bikes can shoot both as there are two riders.

How I use the formation is all melta most of the time. Small RAS squads (3 or 4 bikes) get a single flamer and I always add the MM Attack Bike. These flamer squads I will typically outflank.

Since the Attack Bikes are split off on their own, I wont miss their contribution to the dakka dice pool so much. Instead, I send them off to kill something that wont die to a S4 AP5 shot.

Speeders with 2 HP's are just too fragile for me. Though with Sammael leading your force and being added to a RAS, speeders will not give up VP's in the Scouring because they are Troops and not Fast Attack choices.

That is the way RAS have been since 4th. I run 6 bikes with 2 melta guns, and sergeant with power fist. I usually combat squad them with 2 meltas in one squad, and the sergeant in the other. I also have the attack bike with multi melta and land speeder with assault cannon; obviously on their own. Both combat squads go to find vehicles to kill. And oddly enough, my attack bikes tend to be the objective takers. People just don't seem to care about a lone attack bike sitting on an objective when they have so many other bikes swarming in their ranks, that and the 24" range of the multi melta means they don't have to get as close.

As for speeders, my usual list has 7. 5 tornadoes, a darkshroud, and the masters landspeeder. Since the 6th ed dark angel codex launched, I think the only damage my tornadoes have suffered is an immobilized result. I have yet to lose one. I have lost the darkshroud a couple of times, and the Master hasnt suffered any damage. Ravenwing are very good at target satuaration. I have found players don't really know how to respond to 10+ units of bikes turbo-boosting and swarming around them. They fire all of their anti tank heavy weapons at the master and the darkshroud, and their anti infantry weapons at the black knights. All of those units are excellent at absorbing fire. The normal bikes and speeders not so much, but they just dont get targeted.

I just don't see the CS as worth it.

I run a Cantabrian circle with the foe inside the circle (instead of outside it). Imagine a targeted unit as being the center of the clock. My units are at 12, 4, 8. I run HM-MSU (Highly Mobile Multiple Small Units). Usually every squad is CS into 4 units except which ever melta RW AS is with Sammael.

That's 11 squads/units just from my 3 RW AS. With me constantly staying spread out and mobile, using a RWCS makes me bring in things I want to keep spread out and moving around. I also agree that LS just don't get shot at. I've lost 3 in 9 2.5k games and 2 in 3 1.5k games with the 6e DA list. They've torn through enemy vehicles and troops. My 3 1.5k games have been against Orks, CSM, and DE. Those typhoons chew through orks well enough with the missile options.

RE: Heldrakes. I faced 2 in a 1.5 k game (Kind of a TFG move, IMO). I had one squad of BK, 1 Tactical with ML/FLakk, Quad ADL, 2 full RWAS, 1 lone Typhoon, a smaller (I think 6?) BK squad, and Sammael. Turns out, wasn't that bad. I got two glances on the first one (or a pen that did nothing note worthy) from interceptor. He flamed an attack bike and small squad, killing 1 bike and wounding the AB (T5 really helps with S6 weapons, as does AB having 2 wounds). It was pretty easy to get 2 of my 3 Tyhpoons around it and even with snapfire, with 3 S8 shots for each, 1 more glance/pen wasn't tough, think I got two. The second Heldrake came on next turn, killed the 4 tactical marines, but took a glance from the Quad (I think I got a pen and a glance, but the invuln saved the pen). Again, in doing that, and with the speed of my bikes, a Typhoon, one RW CS, and 4 BK got behind it (had to expose itself to get to the Quad). Between TL Plasma Talons and the Typhoon, I got a pen, that locked its velocity. I knew its possible path and its speed, so it flew off the board on turn 4 (and I had already made sure nothing would be in front of it, pretty easy to do really). In the mean time, my lone tactical marine manned the Quad, which shot the last Heldrake down when it came on turn 5 with 2 hits. The lone ML Skyfire missed the one time it fired, but the threat of it and the Quad pulled the last Heldrake into a really bad spot, which brought it down.

I've just redone my force after the last two games. Now its:

Sammael
Mastery 2 Libby on Bike with Displacer , MB, Auspex

Deathwing Squad w AC, CF

RWing Attack Squad with x2 Melta, MM Attack Bike, Typhoon with MM, vet Sarg with LC and MB
RWing Attack Squad with x2 Melta, MM Attack Bike, Typhoon with MM vet Sarg with LC and MB
RWing Attack Squad with x2 PG, MM Attack Bike, Typhoon with MM vet Sarg with LC and MB
5 man tactical squad with Flakk ML, Vet sarg, PS
5 man tactical squad with Flakk ML, Vet sarg

10 Rwing Black Knights with MB and x3 GL
Darkshroud

Other

ADL with Quad

The 5 BK just weren't towing it, and with a little light trimming, they were replaced with a DW squad. If I was building a new force, I'd put in a CML instead of the AC, but a TL, rending AC on turn 1 that also split fires can cause some consternation among a foe's forces.

The Libby does different things depending on his powers, but he's great. Right now, I see 1 BK squad with 3 GL and 1 M2 Bike Libby as a must in larger games. I don't think the Libby will always go with the BK, but if he gets anything but Precog or Perfect Timing he's a huge boost to the BK, and he can primaris either of those if they come up. In the Ork games, the GL blasts or Kraks are great, and the Rad's love Nobs for PT or even Bolter ID.

Just an update: won two games this weekend, had enough anti-air to handle 3 Dakkajets one battle, and I had a tough fight against the new armored corps FW list, but still came out ahead in the end when 2 melta guns one-shotted 2 Executioners on turn 4 (don't plan on that).

Sorry, struggle w abbreviations: LC on the sargeants is?

Lightning Claw, I would assume.

Why a single sc vs other pw options?
Everything else I get

Now it is my turn to ask; sc?

Same cost as power sword you lose 1 attack but get to reroll wounds.