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P122 BRB; First Turn; Next the player who deployed his army first starts the first turn...

P121 BRB; Deploying Infiltrators and Redeploying Scouts; ...First, both players deploy their forces (apart from those units left kept as Reserve or that have chose to use their Infiltrate special rule). When both players have deployed their main force, then they deploy their Infiltrators......

P38 BRB; Infiltrate Units that contain at least onr model with this special rule are deployed last

Does that mean a player who untilises Infiltrate when his opponent does not has just lost first turn unless he steals the initiative?

Cheers

Andrew

PS This came out of a discussion in another thread in which I completely misread the rules, and a throwaway comment made by myself in jest now appears to be true.
PPS Emphasis added is, of course, mine.

What? No.

First turn is based on who deployed first. Infiltrators don't make you deploy your whole army last, just that unit.

So:
Roll for who deploys.
Player X wins the roll and deploys his main army.
Player Y then deploys his main army.
If one player has infiltrators and the other doesn't, he deploys them now. If both, then roll off and winner chooses.

That was what I originally thought but it's not what the rules actually say....

I was surprised to.

Cheers

Andrew

You're going to have to spell out your reasoning because nothing in the quotes you listed seems to change the order that I set out.

The rule for first turn explicitly says the person who deployed their army first, not who deployed the first unit. The rule for deploying infiltrators specifically calls them out as being deployed after the opponent has deployed his (noninfiltrating) units. And the special rules section reinforces this by pointing out that infiltrators are deployed last.

Last edition rules specifically pointed out that the person who won the roll of for deployment got first turn. This edition doesn't.

Cheers

Andrew

What?

Okay, so:

Roll for who deploys first.
Player X wins roll and deploys first.
Nothing else is important since the rule for first turn says
"Next the player who deployed his army first starts the first turn..."

Who deployed his army first? Player X. It doesn't say 'Next the player who finished deploying his army first starts the first turn...'

because your infiltrators is deployed last and there for didn't fully deploy first, you go last according to p122
though if that was the case how does "deploying" with deep strike work as you didn't deploy your army.

in context Im pretty sure pg 122 is referring to your main army not including units with special rules.

Edit: also what pretre said

Yeah, it doesn't say fully deploy.

Which was what I originally thought, but the matter came up under the DWA argument. Now it doesnt matter for the purposes of this whether the '50% rule' applies, but if it is based on the first unit deployed then the DA player has always 'deployed' first.

Now that really can't be right. So the question of what the first turn was determined to mean the army as a whole, and with infiltrators actually having in writing that they deploy after your opponent, as opposed to saying something like infiltrators are placed once all other units are on the table, anything that would imply the statement of infiltration is 'deployment' would follow your reasoning. But the rules stating deployed after your opponent and last kind of messes thing up.

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
because your infiltrators is deployed last and there for didn't fully deploy first, you go last according to p122
though if that was the case how does "deploying" with deep strike work as you didn't deploy your army.

in context Im pretty sure pg 122 is referring to your main army not including units with special rules.

Edit: also what pretre said

Context, fine I'm in agreement with you, but the RAW seems to indicate otherwise. DS is not a deployment but a special move from Reserve, which is a deployment choice.

Cheers

Andrew

Still not getting you.

Who deployed first? Player X.

It is that simple.

It doesn't matter if it completed or not.

It is just the way the language works. For example: Billy and Bobby are having an eating contest. Billy eats first. Then Bobby eats. Who ate first? Billy did, of course. Does it matter that Billy stopped for a breather and started again a little while later? Of course not, Billy ate first.

Yeah, i'm not seeing anything here. You are going to need to clearly explain your argument, step by step, better than you have now at least.

I understand what you are saying, using your example, Billy and Bobby sit down at the table, but Bobby is allowed to eat a bread roll before rolling, who ate first then?

Cheers

Andrew

Please define the word army in the context of the rules?

 AndrewC wrote:
I understand what you are saying, using your example, Billy and Bobby sit down at the table, but Bobby is allowed to eat a bread roll before rolling, who ate first then?

Cheers

Andrew

Please define the word army in the context of the rules?

Depends. Who was born first? The first born would obviously have eaten before his opponent.

No one deploys before the roll to deploy first though. Your example is poor. If infiltrators deployed before the main army, I would completely agree with your contention. They don't, however.

There is no definition of army. Although, again, that doesn't matter in this context, since the rules for going first don't say that you have to deploy your whole army. Just that you have to deploy your army.

From what I can see/infer from P108 army encompasses the entire force, not just one or two units.

Since first turn states 'his army' I can only infer that they actually mean the entire force, not just one or two units. And the rule is in past tense deployed his army, not first to deploy his army. Small difference I know.

Am I making more sense?

Cheers

Andrew

PS There is a unit that can deploy before rolling. DWA termies. Which is why this entire thread came about.

 pretre wrote:
Still not getting you.

Who deployed first? Player X.

It is that simple.

It doesn't matter if it completed or not.

It is just the way the language works. For example: Billy and Bobby are having an eating contest. Billy eats first. Then Bobby eats. Who ate first? Billy did, of course. Does it matter that Billy stopped for a breather and started again a little while later? Of course not, Billy ate first.

I get what you are saying, but what Andrew is trying to point out is that if Player X still has Infiltrators left then he hasn't "deployed" first as in he is done, nothing left to do but start the game turn, but Player X is STILL "Deploying" as in not finished and in the process of.

If the rule says "deployed," past tense, in other words the player that is no longer in the process of "deploying" gets to go first.

I do not think it is what was intended but, as you say, it is "the way language works"

Why would you infer that?

Okay, let's get more specific. The deployment rules describe the act of deploying your 'entire army'
"Roll-off to see which playerchooseswhether to deployfirst or
second. The playerthat goesfirst then placeshis entire armyon
the tablein his deployment zone. His opponent then deploys
hisentire army in the opposite deployment zone."

It then gives you an exception to this rule for infiltrators.

It is clear that the First turn rule is referring to the normal act of deploying, not the exception and that the exception is not changing the first turn rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:
I get what you are saying, but what Andrew is trying to point out is that if Player X still has Infiltrators left then he hasn't "deployed" first as in he is done, nothing left to do but start the game turn, but Player X is STILL "Deploying" as in not finished and in the process of.

He started deploying first. Hence, he deployed first. The first turn rule doesn't say that it has to be completed.

If the rule says "deployed," past tense, in other the player that is no longer in the process of "deploying" gets to go first.

I do not think it is what was intended but, as you say, it is "the way language works"

My mother was born in 1960 and died in 2010.
My father was born in 1950 and died in 2012.
Who lived first?

 Happyjew wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
I understand what you are saying, using your example, Billy and Bobby sit down at the table, but Bobby is allowed to eat a bread roll before rolling, who ate first then?

Cheers

Andrew

Please define the word army in the context of the rules?

Depends. Who was born first? The first born would obviously have eaten before his opponent.

Very funny The competion only applies to food eaten at that table.

So if both armies have infiltrators is the game an automatic draw?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So if both armies have infiltrators is the game an automatic draw?

What? Do I have to pull out the crazy pills pic?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So if both armies have infiltrators is the game an automatic draw?

nope as you have to roll off to see who deploys infiltrators first.

Its pretty simple. Whomeber won the die roll to go first, goes first unless his opponent Seized Initiative...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Its pretty simple. Whomeber won the die roll to go first, goes first unless his opponent Seized Initiative...

Yep. ALthough that's not exactly what the rules says, it is what the rule says if you take the roll for deployment to indicate who deploy first, as they deployed the first unit on the table and hence deployed first.

My mother was born in 1960 and died in 2010.
My father was born in 1950 and died in 2012.
Who lived first?

is equivalent to

Player X won the roll off and started deploying at 10:00AM. He finished deploying at 10:20AM because of infiltrators.
Player Y lost the roll off and started deploying at 10:10AM. He finished deploying at 10:17AM and had no infiltrators.
Who deployed first?

 pretre wrote:

My mother was born in 1960 and died in 2010.
My father was born in 1950 and died in 2012.
Who lived first?

Not an accurate analogy.

The question should be more like the parent that lived first goes to heaven first, so which parent gets to get to heaven first?

Anyway, like I said I don't think that is the way it is supposed to be.

The father gets to go to heaven because he lived first. The mother died first. That's different. This is because lived and died are two different things. Just as deployed first and finished deploying are two different things.

The problem with your argument is that DA is now auto first turn, because of their out of sequence deployment for DWA.

The deployed/deploying is a good counter argument, however it has a qualifier in the rules as to what has to be deployed, ie their army.

Going by your example, I would have to say in answer;

Who deployed first? Player X
Who deployed their army first? Player Y.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
The problem with your argument is that DA is now auto first turn, because of their out of sequence deployment for DWA.

The deployed/deploying is a good counter argument, however it has a qualifier in the rules as to what has to be deployed, ie their army.

Going by your example, I would have to say in answer;

Who deployed first? Player X
Who deployed their army first? Player Y.

Reserves is part of deploying your army (as is DWA, although that's a can of worms).

"Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy
upto half of their units (rounding up)keeping them as Reserves
to arrive later."

Who deployed their army first? is not the same as Who finished deploying their army first?

Again, same concept.

 AndrewC wrote:
The problem with your argument is that DA is now auto first turn, because of their out of sequence deployment for DWA.

The deployed/deploying is a good counter argument, however it has a qualifier in the rules as to what has to be deployed, ie their army.

Going by your example, I would have to say in answer;

Who deployed first? Player X
Who deployed their army first? Player Y.

Cheers

Andrew

Nothing in DWA implies that it changes who deploys first or the roll for it. You logic is flawed. "deploy forces" is on pg 121, on the right side of the pg 2nd paragraph down in the section completely explains the order in which infiltrators are deployed. go get a rulebook.

The way I see it, who ever wins the roll starts to deploy first, deployment isnt over until the first turn begins.

I can see what you trying to get at but its wrong, it says deployed first, not finished deploying first.

I.e I deploy my units and save two for inflitrating, you deploy your army I then inflitrate. I have still deployed first regardless of me finishing before or after you.

Azrell wrote:

Nothing in DWA implies that it changes who deploys first or the roll for it. You logic is flawed. "deploy forces" is on pg 121, on the right side of the pg 2nd paragraph down in the section completely explains the order in which infiltrators are deployed. go get a rulebook.

Thank you for this wonderfully erudite reply, had you actually read my original post, you would have seen that I quoted the relevant sections of the rules. Highly suggestive of someone who actually owns the relevant books.

Had you also read through the relevant section of DWA you would also have noted that a DA player utilising DWA gets to deploy those units before the roll off is even made. Since first turn only states that the person who had deployed first, and makes absolutely no mention of P121, dice whatever, this technically means that DA players will always get to go first. Obviously not intended, but since when does GW actually playtest all their rules.

But thank you for your input.

Cheers

Andrew