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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/05 16:50:53
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Kid_Kyoto
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http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/02/obama-imminence/
How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans
By Spencer Ackerman
02.05.13
10:16 AM
“Imminence” used to mean something in military terms: namely, that an adversary had begun preparations for an assault. In order to justify his drone strikes on American citizens, President Obama redefined that concept to exclude any actual adversary attack.
That’s the heart of the Justice Department’s newly-leaked white paper, first reported by NBC News, explaining why a “broader concept of imminence” (.PDF) trumps traditional Constitutional protections American citizens enjoy from being killed by their government without due process. It’s an especially striking claim when considering that the actual number of American citizens who are “senior operational leader[s] of al-Qaida or its associated forces” is vanishingly small. As much as Obama talks about rejecting the concept of “perpetual war” he’s providing, and institutionalizing, a blueprint for it.
Imminence has always been a tricky concept. It used to depend on observable battlefield preparations, like tanks amassing near a front line, missile assemblage, or the fueling of fighter jet squadrons. Even under those circumstances, there has been little international consensus about when a nation under threat can take action. A classic example is Israel’s June 1967 bombing of the Egyptian Air Force on its tarmac, which followed months of signals that Egypt was about to launch a massive assault. Whether you view Israel or Egypt as the aggressor tends to depend on your sympathy to either party in the conflict.
President George W. Bush contended that the U.S. had to invade Iraq not because the government knew Saddam Hussein was about to launch an attack on America, but because it didn’t. Bush contended that uncertainty about Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction, augmented by 9/11′s warnings of shadowy terrorist groups plotting undetectable attacks, redefined “imminence” to mean the absence of dispositive proof refuting the existence of an unconventional weapons program that could be used in an attack. But when U.S. troops invaded, they learned that Saddam did not possess what Bush aide Condoleezza Rice famously termed a smoking gun that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.
The undated Justice Department white paper, a summary of a number of still-classified legal analyses, redefines imminence once again. al-Qaida leaders are “continually planning attacks,” the undated white paper says, and so a preemptive attack “does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests in the immediate future.” Referencing the intelligence failures preceding 9/11, the paper concedes the U.S. “is likely to have only a limited window of opportunity within which to defend Americans.” For an adversary attack to be “imminent,” and a preemptive U.S. response justified, U.S. officials need only “incorporate considerations of the relevant window of opportunity, the possibility of reducing collateral damage to civilians, and the likelihood of heading off future disastrous attacks to America.”
There’s a subtlety at work in the Justice Department framework. It takes imminence out of the context of something an enemy does, and places it into the context of a policymaker’s epistemic limitations. “The U.S. government may not be aware of all al-Qaida plots as they are developing and thus cannot be confident that none is about to occur,” the white paper warns.
If there is a reasonable debate over what imminence means in an era of terrorism, and what standards ought to be accepted for defining it as an international norm, that framework preempts it. All that matters to justify a drone strike attack is for the U.S. to recognize it can’t be all-knowing. It’s the logical equivalent of the CIA’s signature strike, which target anonymous military-age males in areas where terrorists operate based on a presumption that their pattern of observed behavior is consistent with those of terrorists.
It would be one thing if Obama was talking about foreigners who enlist in al-Qaida. But he’s actually talking specifically about American citizens overseas who are “senior operational leader[s] of al-Qaida or its affiliated forces” — people whom the Constitution protects against the loss of life without due process of law. (The Justice Department stops short of claiming the government can take such lethal actions at home.) U.S. citizenship “does not immunize” such a person from reprisal. Here the white paper does not define what it means to be a “senior operational leader” of al-Qaida, let alone its “affiliated forces,” and instead asserts the applicability of Supreme Court precedent from World War II holding that U.S. citizens who joined the Axis can be treated as enemy belligerents. (My WIRED colleague David Kravets will have more on the specific legal claims Obama makes.)
To read this, you might think the U.S. faced an onslaught of treason. The data show otherwise. For the third straight year, U.S. Muslim involvement in terrorism declined, according to the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security, to the point where it’s assessed to be fewer than 10 cases in a million — none of which resulted in anyone’s death. The few such cases that do exist do not in any rigorous way describe “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida. The only American in al-Qaida’s senior cadre is a Californian metalhead turned propagandist named Adam Gadahn. The administration has asserted that Anwar al-Awlaki, the American citizen who incited terrorism in YouTube clips, was a senior operational leader of al-Qaida’s Yemen branch, but refuses to provide evidence for the claim. Not only did the U.S. kill Awlaki in a drone strike, it later killed his 16-year old son Abdulrahman, whom it has never publicly claimed was a senior operational leader of al-Qaida.
Under the Obama administration, the decision to target members of al-Qaida abroad, both foreign citizens and Americans, is made under a regularized institutional process known by the shorthand of the “disposition matrix.” One of its architects, White House counterterrorism chief, John Brennan, will testify on Thursday ahead of a Senate vote to confirm him as CIA director. Eleven senators, Democrat and Republican, wrote to the White House on Monday requesting the full secret memos — plural — explaining the administration’s arguments for targeting Americans in drone strikes and commando raids.
Whether or not they receive the memos, the white paper asserts an understanding of battlefield imminence that means little more than the mere existence of al-Qaida, and unconstrained by protections for U.S. citizens that the Constitution traditionally grants. Once the U.S. makes that claim, so can others, creating pretext for further acts of war.
“The Justice Department’s legal arguments purportedly defending targeted killing fundamentally misconceive the nature of self-defense,” University of Notre Dame professor Mary Ellen O’Connell said in a prepared statement. “It is a right to use military force against a state that has or is about to launched a major military attack on the United States. The 9/11 attacks led to a war of self-defense in Afghanistan. That had all the hallmarks of legality. Contrast that use of force with the CIA firing of missiles from drones at a single individual and innocent bystanders in Yemen. You do not need to be an expert in international law to understand the enormous violation of law involved and the egregious conduct involved in attempting to exploit lack of knowledge of the law to achieve political cover for targeted killing.”
Huh.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/05 17:13:22
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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Oh joy this again. I predict it will.... End as all the other threads about it have.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 05:23:10
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Even John Yoo never dared to go this far. Unbelievable.
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 06:11:34
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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Just proving my point that people are using stuff like 9/11 and the shootings to justify revoking americans of their rights and slowly making the U.S. a police state. I suppose this tends to happen whenever there's a war going on and panic from terrorist activity but it's not like we've been under constant siege in our own country since 9/11 or anything (or at least nothing too major). However every time anything that might stir emotions even a bit happens the gov't seems to take away a right by re-defining something.
Reminds me of something from animal farm for some reason on the terms of our rights and such. 'All animals are equal, but some are more EQUAL than others.'
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Join skavenblight today!
http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 07:21:44
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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I think one mistake being made in this debate is to focus on the president of the day. While ultimately Obama is authorising this, he is really just going with the consensus opinion of the security apparatus, most of whom are professional bureaucrats who keep their places regardless of the government of the day.
I don't say this to excuse Obama, but because I think it leads to a false idea that this kind of thing can be solved by voting out the president of the day. Bush considerably expanded the actions taken in the name of national security and many people (myself included) wrongly thought that voting him out of office would somehow change the trend. It didn't. And I don't think anyone could pretend that had Romney won anything would have changed either.
Which leads to a question about how people might meaningfully challenge the growing trend. It seems clear that getting dreadlocks and making a sign that says 'Obama = Hitler' doesn't have the desired effect, but it seems the best idea anyone has had so far.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 13:37:30
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Kid_Kyoto
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flamingkillamajig wrote:
Reminds me of something from animal farm for some reason on the terms of our rights and such. 'All animals are equal, but some are more EQUAL than others.'
Funny, I was reading the white paper, and I thought to myself, "Well, hope no one ever accuses me of being friends with Emmanuel Goldstein." Automatically Appended Next Post: sebster wrote:Which leads to a question about how people might meaningfully challenge the growing trend. It seems clear that getting dreadlocks and making a sign that says 'Obama = Hitler' doesn't have the desired effect, but it seems the best idea anyone has had so far.
And this is precisely the issue at hand. I do not believe you can maintain the attention of the average American long enough to explain to them your views. That's why "bumper sticker" slogans are so popular. "Change has come" and all that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/06 13:40:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 16:36:41
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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I haven't read the White Paper yet...
But... keep in mind that legally, we're still at war and thus, war is the suspension of Due Process, pure and simple.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 16:46:59
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Kid_Kyoto
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whembly wrote:But... keep in mind that legally, we're still at war and thus, war is the suspension of Due Process, pure and simple.
Are we at war legally? If we measure "legal war" by formal declaration, then we haven't been at war since WWII. If we measure "legal war" by Congressionally funded military engagements, then we've been "at war" with someone pretty much nonstop since 1990, and we haven't needed this justification of power of execution until now.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 16:59:14
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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daedalus wrote: whembly wrote:But... keep in mind that legally, we're still at war and thus, war is the suspension of Due Process, pure and simple.
Are we at war legally? If we measure "legal war" by formal declaration, then we haven't been at war since WWII. If we measure "legal war" by Congressionally funded military engagements, then we've been "at war" with someone pretty much nonstop since 1990, and we haven't needed this justification of power of execution until now.
I had to double check to be sure... but, yes, we're "At War". Check it here.
Here's the gooey part:
That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
Constitutionally... this is in compliance with the War Powers Act. Therefore, in a technical sense, Due Process is suspended with respect to any Military engagements.
However, what I don't exactly know is when/how do we "get out of the At War status"? I suspect another Congressional resolution is needed.
I still haven't fully read that White Paper yet, but I'm seeing some twitter spat going on how poorly the administration has justified it.
Here's what I think it's funny... most Democrats (not all... there's some who are objecting this), now has a President, who is doing the EXACT. SAME. THING as GWB... after reaming Dubya for years.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 17:40:20
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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whembly wrote:But... keep in mind that legally, we're still at war and thus, war is the suspension of Due Process, pure and simple.
The first part of that sentence is questionable, and the second part has been untrue in 152 years.
The president is not a king.
whembly wrote:Here's what I think it's funny... most Democrats (not all... there's some who are objecting this), now has a President, who is doing the EXACT. SAME. THING as GWB... after reaming Dubya for years.
What's funny about it? This was front page news on MSNBC.com yesterday (NBC broke the story!) and it's been universally decried by prominent liberals such as Glenn Greenwald. These people have been consistently against executive overreach for at least 8 years under both democratic and republican administrations. I know that pretending "liberals were against it when Bush did it but are OK with it when Obama does it" makes a amusing meme but at least pick one that's got some basis in reality instead of just making one up because it's simpler to do so.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/06 17:44:33
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 18:09:01
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Ouze wrote: whembly wrote:But... keep in mind that legally, we're still at war and thus, war is the suspension of Due Process, pure and simple.
The first part of that sentence is questionable, and the second part has been untrue in 152 years.
The first part shouldn't be... how else would you interpret this part of the authorization resolution?
(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements-
(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.
(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this resolution supercedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.
Your statement "and the second part has been untrue in 152 years. "
Wait...wut? Not sure I follow...
The president is not a king.
Agreed there...
whembly wrote:Here's what I think it's funny... most Democrats (not all... there's some who are objecting this), now has a President, who is doing the EXACT. SAME. THING as GWB... after reaming Dubya for years.
What's funny about it? This was front page news on MSNBC.com yesterday (NBC broke the story!) and it's been universally decried by prominent liberals such as Glenn Greenwald. These people have been consistently against executive overreach for at least 8 years under both democratic and republican administrations. I know that pretending "liberals were against it when Bush did it but are OK with it when Obama does it" makes a amusing meme but at least pick one that's got some basis in reality instead of just making one up because it's simpler to do so.
But that's just it, it ain't universally decried. (that's why I added that caveat that some democrats do object the current's administration's views).
In other words... where are the usual suspects?
As a disclaimer... I disagreed with the whole Drone Strike activites... but, I'm willing to have a discussion on this to be convinced otherwise.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/06 18:09:23
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 18:18:04
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Who, specifically, are you referring to?
The "152 years" reference was Ex parte Merryman, which was affirmed again in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld - The president cannot suspend due process, not even "cause wartime".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/06 18:18:14
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 18:39:46
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Ouze wrote:
Who, specifically, are you referring to?
The "152 years" reference was Ex parte Merryman, which was affirmed again in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld - The president cannot suspend due process, not even "cause wartime".
hmmm... need to read up on that. Thanks.
I guess I was referring to the fact that in war, you don't ask your opponent for their day in court before opting them out...
That's what it boils down to... yes?
Oh... here's what I saw this morning...
http://www.salon.com/2012/02/08/repulsive_progressive_hypocrisy/singleton/
To be fair, other liberal/democrats whom always rejected these policies still do... Kirsten Powers for one...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/06 18:46:33
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 18:46:23
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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But you cannot declare war on your own citizens? They have a right to a fair trial?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 18:48:30
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Da Boss wrote:But you cannot declare war on your own citizens? They have a right to a fair trial?
There's much more to it that that... I think everyone is getting hung up on semantics.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 19:28:37
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Well, that's what the law is. Semantics and technicalities.
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 20:31:36
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Ouze wrote:Well, that's what the law is. Semantics and technicalities.
But... isn't it still murky?
It doesn't matter if the target is a US citizen or not. It applies to “persons” not citizens, which means that if an illegal immigrant comes in here and commits an ordinary crime, we cannot summarily execute that person... they have as much right to a trial as anyone else.
So what, if anything, overrides this?
Could simply declaring "enemy combatant" be enough to override this?
EDIT: Further thought... what does it mean legally if an American who has declared his allegiance with our enemies and actively working against our interests?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/06 20:38:31
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 20:53:51
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Kid_Kyoto
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whembly wrote:
EDIT: Further thought... what does it mean legally if an American who has declared his allegiance with our enemies and actively working against our interests?
I don't know how it's worded precisely, but I believe you automatically lose your citizenship if you enlist in a military of a country with which we are not allies.
I guess if you interpret that loosely enough, you could say that, hypothetically, of course, the 16 year old son of an alleged member of AQ who happened to be in a vehicle with another member of AQ at the time could be enlisting in the military of a country with which we are not allies.
Of course, I guess you could also say that about anyone in the same elevator as the above.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 21:34:26
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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[DCM]
The Main Man
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daedalus wrote: whembly wrote:
EDIT: Further thought... what does it mean legally if an American who has declared his allegiance with our enemies and actively working against our interests?
I don't know how it's worded precisely, but I believe you automatically lose your citizenship if you enlist in a military of a country with which we are not allies.
I did a little research on this awhile back, and as far I could tell, you also have to have the intention of relinquishing your citizenship by performing that action that could result in loss of citizenship. Because it is hard to prove intent, in current practice basically the only way to lose your citizenship is to go to an embassy or consulate and officially revoke it.
There's some more info on the subject here.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 22:18:43
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Here's a liberal ripping other liberals...
THUNDERDOME!
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-liberal-contributor-kirsten-powers-rips-obama-and-other-liberals-for-supporting-drone-kill-list/
So... cave-man logic:
DRONE KILLING US CITIZENS GOOD,
WATERBOARDING TERRORISTS BAD!
?
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 22:21:08
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
Ontario
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I don't think the above is true necessarily. My father's uncle lost his US citizenship by flying with the RCAF during World War 2.
It doesn't matter if the target is a US citizen or not. It applies to “persons” not citizens, which means that if an illegal immigrant comes in here and commits an ordinary crime, we cannot summarily execute that person... they have as much right to a trial as anyone else.
As far as I'm aware they no longer are guaranteed a fair trial. Neither are foreign nationals with the exception of the British as far as I'm aware. George Bush changed it so that foreign nationals can be tried by military courts in his second term. The British sought and received an exemption, not sure what other nations did.
I guess if you interpret that loosely enough, you could say that, hypothetically, of course, the 16 year old son of an alleged member of AQ who happened to be in a vehicle with another member of AQ at the time could be enlisting in the military of a country with which we are not allies.
That shouldn't work because AQ is not a country, and thus cannot have a military.
The "152 years" reference was Ex parte Merryman, which was affirmed again in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld - The president cannot suspend due process, not even "cause wartime".
Didn't Congress vote him the suspension? That would make it different as he cannot suspend due process by his own authority.
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DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 22:23:54
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Kid_Kyoto
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I really wish we could just settle for:
DRONE KILLING US CITIZENS BAD
WATERBOARDING PEOPLE BAD!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 22:28:25
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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daedalus wrote:I don't know how it's worded precisely, but I believe you automatically lose your citizenship if you enlist in a military of a country with which we are not allies.
I guess if you interpret that loosely enough, you could say that, hypothetically, of course, the 16 year old son of an alleged member of AQ who happened to be in a vehicle with another member of AQ at the time could be enlisting in the military of a country with which we are not allies.
Of course, I guess you could also say that about anyone in the same elevator as the above.
The first sentence of your post is factually incorrect, and you built on it from there, which was a mistake.
It's very difficult to lose your US ciitizenship against your will, and it's literally impossible for it to happen "automatically". There are certain actions you can take that will trigger a review of it but the general assumption is that you wish to retain citizenship..
Don't guess, Google is like 3 clicks away.
edit: Looks like Hordini beat me to it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/06 22:33:23
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 22:45:47
Subject: Re:"How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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So that's the question...right?
Can you summarily execute a known US Citizen in foreign soil for any reason... legally?
This is the crux of the problem...
According to that white paper, the Administration argued that the target must be:
1) in a foreign country (as in, not the United States),
2) if a senior member of AQ/groups
3) if a high level official has determined that this person poses an imminent threat, (what imminent mean?)
4) if capture isn’t feasible, and
5) it otherwise doesn’t violate the laws of war. (what "laws of war"?)
There a lot of semantics here...
Honesty, I don't think this is right. (not surprisingly, Bolton said this policy is Sensible)
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 22:48:38
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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LordofHats wrote:Oh joy this again. I predict it will.... End as all the other threads about it have.
Lets go straight to the reckless Tim Horton's donut references!
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 22:48:53
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Ratbarf wrote:Ouze, even though you dropped all the tags for some reason, wrote:The "152 years" reference was Ex parte Merryman, which was affirmed again in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld - The president cannot suspend due process, not even "cause wartime".
Didn't Congress vote him the suspension? That would make it different as he cannot suspend due process by his own authority.
They did no such thing. They authorized the POTUS to use military force against the planners of the 9-11 attacks. It's only like, 3 paragraphs, none of which can be construed to remove due process rights from Americans. Not that it would matter if it did, since it would take a constitutional amendment to do so, not a normal act.
whembly wrote:So that's the question...right?[
Can you summarily execute a known US Citizen in foreign soil for any reason... legally?
In my opinion, no. The president has no authority to authorize the killing of a US citizen without due process contrary to the 5th amendment.
I think we could probably argue about "due process" encompasses, though. Military commision? I'm not sure.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/02/06 22:53:22
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 06:17:45
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
Ontario
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So why has no one challenged the Government in court about their assassinations of US citizens abroad?
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DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 06:33:15
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Ratbarf wrote:So why has no one challenged the Government in court about their assassinations of US citizens abroad?
I'm guessing standing would be a big problem. Basically in order to take something to court, you have to be an impacted party. So if a law was passed saying citizens of Nebraska cannot drive cars, a person from Ohio couldn't take the government to court over the matter. It would have to be challenged by someone from Nebraska.
And, well, if you're a person the government is trying to blow up with a drone strike, then you're very unlikely to want to enter a courtroom and tell the government who you are.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 07:17:03
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Ratbarf wrote:So why has no one challenged the Government in court about their assassinations of US citizens abroad?
They have. The dad of the cleric sued in court to stop the assassination of his son.
The court ruled that he doesn't have any standing to sue, and that the only way anybody could sue is if the person that is the target of the assassination presents himself to the court of the people that want to kill him to plead with them why they shouldn't be allowed to just drop a bomb on him.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 08:55:54
Subject: "How Obama Transformed an Old Military Concept So He Can Drone Americans"
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
Ontario
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Could they not launch a class action lawsuit? Since under this law it would appear that the burden of proof is almost nil, and thus the government could launch a drone strike at any citizen as long as they are out of country and pronounce it legal.
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DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ |
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