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So I'm starting to get my Skaven models in from various eBay purchases.

The clan rats are fantastic looking, so question, do I need to allocate a big butt-load of them to be slaves or can I run an competitive army with all clan rats?

I get the appeal of slaves, 2 pts a pop, LD10 steadfast with a re-roll near my command bunker, and getting to shoot into them, but can I just do units of 40 clan rats with weapon teams instead?

Anyone have experience running clan rats over slaves?

This is a big question, but luckily one with a very pleasing answer, Nope .

The Skaven book has a remarkable amount of ways to build and run armies, many thematic and cool, others just to suit your personal play style, heck, Boss Salvage used to run an all Stormvermin list to high success before he made a switch to warma/hordes. The book just suffers from the 1st world problem of the fantasy world, too many cool toys, too few points, the Skaven book is, to be frank; a superb book that is chock full of god units and options. Skaven Slaves just happen to be an exceptionally good unit, so they are generally considered an auto-include.

This can lead to Skaven players falling into a "Safe Zone" in a book brimming with possibilities and tons of crazy AND good list combinations, they stick to what is good, plague furnace "WHY WOULDN'T I?" Warp Lightning Cannon "MAKE IT 2", at the end of the day Skaven is like any other army in regards to auto includes, and we are blessed for that; Wood Elves, their auto includes are just that, automatic inclusions, because I got 99 problems and to be frank Eternal guard are just not one of them.

Long rant but the end point, Skaven... they are an army of plague/mad scientist/ ninja/ rat people, branch out, have a blast, run a horde of 100 rats with Skweel, bring a bell and laugh as it does nothing for an entire game then rolls that 13 on a death frenzied unit of Stormvermin pushing it.....(That was a great Day).

oh yes, and the on-topic end point, yes 40 man units (or more) of clanrats with weapon teams is quite good, it can bring the pain and still be very economical, though they simply aren't the glorious cheese filled tar pits that their 2 point cousins get the dubious honor of being.

40 model clanrats aren't terribly effective. Sure the weapons teams are cool and sh*t but then you realize you won't have steadfast in almost any battle even against ogres. Some of the weapons teams esp. the warpfire thrower can put out damage but usually they exist to weaken the enemy before the fight in melee rather than throwing out all the damage till there's nothing left but a few guys. Fantasy is different than 40k. Shooting with weapons teams and war machines is pretty good but it's more softening the enemy up for melee rather than doing a lot of the work.

I don't think it's wise to ever run 40 clanrats by themselves in multiple small units. If you have large units of slaves then maybe but i wouldn't do it.

If you want better advice ask somebody else though. I'm ok with this but a lot of it is what i hear and theory. I have noticed from experience though that 40 model clanrat units die fast and the weapons teams en masse tend not to do enough damage.

@sandant: I thought 40 model clanrat units were terrible even if you did that for a lot of weapon teams. Weapons teams just don't seem to do enough damage till the enemy gets there and then the clanrats break unless you have units with more models that are sturdier.

I'm actually planning a few different units or tactics. Hehe that's why i plan on eventually using a 40-50 model unit of night runners with a warp grinder when i get the money. I think the models are butt ugly and need a re-release before i get them and i don't know if i'd convert them (They're basically the same cost as clanrats currently anyway and i saw a younger player green stuff capes onto the clanrats to count as night runners. When you think about it that works for the slings upgrade to skavenslaves too.). The reason i'd do this is because night runners are rank-and-file and warp grinders pop up somewhere on the board forcing your enemy to at the very least divert forces to face them. If the enemy chooses to avoid facing them there's entirely a possibility that you can flank them with the night runners and even better you can charge an enemy the turn the night runners come in. Sadly the warp grinder could backfire spectacularly. You can only take one unit of night runners with a warp grinder regardless of how many units of night runners you have, the misfire on the warp grinder is incredibly unforgiving and you might waste all those points and if you don't hit an enemy where they don't want to be hit it's still probably wasted points. If nothing else it diverts enemy attention but i don't think i'd do it in any game less than 2.5k or even 3k in points.

I'm honestly trying to like doom flayers but they're too fragile and don't do enough esp. considering the alternatives and therefore suck. I've tried using my plague monks with the furnace as a sort of unbreakable wall for them to hide behind and then wait for a unit on the side to break so that a good couple of doom flayers can flank the same unit. However sadly the opponent usually holds and being skaven my unit will probably keep running till it's nearly off the board or so far away that it's not very helpful other than to keep me from getting points. I'm fairly certain the doom flayer will die in almost every situation even if it flanks. It just lacks the maneuverability of the doomwheel and it's not very fast. Maybe i'm also noobish but i don't think it can charge unless it has view from its front arc (not sure if that's the case for individual units but i think it still applies).

Oddly enough i've thought about using small units of skavenslaves with slings to kill off weapons teams and stuff like fanatics. I know skavenslaves with slings will do next to nothing but they could probably at least snipe out some really weak things that do a lot of damage. I should probably just keep skavenslaves as a cheap unit to soak up firepower though. Still like 20 or so skavenslaves might do a good job sniping the small and weak weapons teams or any individual unit really. There probably aren't enough of those actually to make skavenslaves with slings effective but i'm trying to use slaves in a way nobody really does so i thought it'd be interesting. Either way it's probably just 50 pts lost so no big deal. They'd probably run really easily but once again that's a shot wasted at a 50 pts unit so have fun with that .

Skaven aren't just nurgle rats, mad scientists or ninjas. They have a big steam punk and frankenstein (because clan moulder is basically frankenstein in style) feel to them too. I know frankenstein was a kind of a mad scientist but skryre and moulder have that in different amounts. Generally skaven ingenuity is to scavenge weapons from the opponent and add warpstone to it in some way. I think this is the case for at least half their weapons that they've been scavenged originally and all of it or pretty much all of it is powered by warpstone. Still they use warpstone to improve everything.

 sandant wrote:
This is a big question, but luckily one with a very pleasing answer, Nope .

The Skaven book has a remarkable amount of ways to build and run armies, many thematic and cool, others just to suit your personal play style, heck, Boss Salvage used to run an all Stormvermin list to high success before he made a switch to warma/hordes. The book just suffers from the 1st world problem of the fantasy world, too many cool toys, too few points, the Skaven book is, to be frank; a superb book that is chock full of god units and options. Skaven Slaves just happen to be an exceptionally good unit, so they are generally considered an auto-include.

This can lead to Skaven players falling into a "Safe Zone" in a book brimming with possibilities and tons of crazy AND good list combinations, they stick to what is good, plague furnace "WHY WOULDN'T I?" Warp Lightning Cannon "MAKE IT 2", at the end of the day Skaven is like any other army in regards to auto includes, and we are blessed for that; Wood Elves, their auto includes are just that, automatic inclusions, because I got 99 problems and to be frank Eternal guard are just not one of them.

Long rant but the end point, Skaven... they are an army of plague/mad scientist/ ninja/ rat people, branch out, have a blast, run a horde of 100 rats with Skweel, bring a bell and laugh as it does nothing for an entire game then rolls that 13 on a death frenzied unit of Stormvermin pushing it.....(That was a great Day).

oh yes, and the on-topic end point, yes 40 man units (or more) of clanrats with weapon teams is quite good, it can bring the pain and still be very economical, though they simply aren't the glorious cheese filled tar pits that their 2 point cousins get the dubious honor of being.

I think i'm in love with your post.

Also my skaven list includes 2 units of twenty slaves with musician these small chaff units are deployed usually on either side of a clan rat bunker for my grey seer and are used to intercept flanking units

 captain collius wrote:

 sandant wrote:
This is a big question, but luckily one with a very pleasing answer, Nope .

The Skaven book has a remarkable amount of ways to build and run armies, many thematic and cool, others just to suit your personal play style, heck, Boss Salvage used to run an all Stormvermin list to high success before he made a switch to warma/hordes. The book just suffers from the 1st world problem of the fantasy world, too many cool toys, too few points, the Skaven book is, to be frank; a superb book that is chock full of god units and options. Skaven Slaves just happen to be an exceptionally good unit, so they are generally considered an auto-include.

This can lead to Skaven players falling into a "Safe Zone" in a book brimming with possibilities and tons of crazy AND good list combinations, they stick to what is good, plague furnace "WHY WOULDN'T I?" Warp Lightning Cannon "MAKE IT 2", at the end of the day Skaven is like any other army in regards to auto includes, and we are blessed for that; Wood Elves, their auto includes are just that, automatic inclusions, because I got 99 problems and to be frank Eternal guard are just not one of them.

Long rant but the end point, Skaven... they are an army of plague/mad scientist/ ninja/ rat people, branch out, have a blast, run a horde of 100 rats with Skweel, bring a bell and laugh as it does nothing for an entire game then rolls that 13 on a death frenzied unit of Stormvermin pushing it.....(That was a great Day).

oh yes, and the on-topic end point, yes 40 man units (or more) of clanrats with weapon teams is quite good, it can bring the pain and still be very economical, though they simply aren't the glorious cheese filled tar pits that their 2 point cousins get the dubious honor of being.

I think i'm in love with your post.

Meh take it to canada and make it legal.

flamingkillamajig wrote: I thought 40 model clanrat units were terrible even if you did that for a lot of weapon teams. Weapons teams just don't seem to do enough damage till the enemy gets there and then the clanrats break unless you have units with more models that are sturdier.

I should have put more emphasis on the 40 clan rats or more bit, but it depends on your role a min sized squad packing a mortar is pretty good, it can chill in the back being mobile artillery, dealing with enemy anti War-machine squads and serving as a pretty snazzy Mage bunker too, hang in the back fire some mortars cast some spells, fun times. But if you want a in your face fighting force, 50-80 clanrats with a warp-fire thrower can do some damage, but once I get to this point I always pause, look at my models, and realize silly me I must have deployed these clanrats instead of Stormvermin. Once you start trying to make a clanrat pack big enough to win combats, and give it a weapon team, it just gets to be, clumsy, they rely on steadfast and ranks to win combats, and i just don't think this is how clanrats should roll. I prefer them in small to medium sized packs that have weapon teams, and play the mid-field, they provide ranged weapon team support, add some flank presence, and are to be perfectly honest, pretty hard to get rid of if they are behind a plague monk furnace combo. Then again i tend to play my Skaven in an almost wave set up, Slaves rats and expendables ready to die for the great horned one, backed by my bells, furnaces, Stormvermin, and clanrat packs, (Then cannons but they just kind of dead fish in the back, and HPAs and Doomwheels are on the side generally).

flamingkillamajig wrote: I'm actually planning a few different units or tactics. Hehe that's why i plan on eventually using a 40-50 model unit of night runners with a warp grinder when i get the money. I think the models are butt ugly and need a re-release before i get them and i don't know if i'd convert them (They're basically the same cost as clanrats currently anyway and i saw a younger player green stuff capes onto the clanrats to count as night runners. When you think about it that works for the slings upgrade to Skaven slaves too.). The reason i'd do this is because night runners are rank-and-file and warp grinders pop up somewhere on the board forcing your enemy to at the very least divert forces to face them. If the enemy chooses to avoid facing them there's entirely a possibility that you can flank them with the night runners and even better you can charge an enemy the turn the night runners come in. Sadly the warp grinder could backfire spectacularly. You can only take one unit of night runners with a warp grinder regardless of how many units of night runners you have, the misfire on the warp grinder is incredibly unforgiving and you might waste all those points and if you don't hit an enemy where they don't want to be hit it's still probably wasted points. If nothing else it diverts enemy attention but i don't think i'd do it in any game less than 2.5k or even 3k in points.

I love Night runners, but i hate the warp grinder, I can never see why i would want it, when i could just have a unit of gutter runners mosey on in wherever i want them, with slinking advance and a pretty high speed, give them slings and watch them run up with the front wave and start throwing those rocks. However i still would run them in 40 man packs, due to my love of the wave philosophy, also back to gutter runners, i feel stabby gutter runner packs with an assassin bumming around is a a pretty cool; albeit overlooked Skaven army. (Side note, try using the Deathmaster as a one man warmachine hunter, its pretty fun to watch him go for a mage bunker too ).

flamingkillamajig wrote: I'm honestly trying to like doom flayers but they're too fragile and don't do enough esp. considering the alternatives and therefore suck. I've tried using my plague monks with the furnace as a sort of unbreakable wall for them to hide behind and then wait for a unit on the side to break so that a good couple of doom flayers can flank the same unit. However sadly the opponent usually holds and being skaven my unit will probably keep running till it's nearly off the board or so far away that it's not very helpful other than to keep me from getting points. I'm fairly certain the doom flayer will die in almost every situation even if it flanks. It just lacks the maneuverability of the doomwheel and it's not very fast. Maybe i'm also noobish but i don't think it can charge unless it has view from its front arc (not sure if that's the case for individual units but i think it still applies).

They have maddened me on many a list building session, i just... i just want them to be good, i really do, maybe killing blow or something, I'unno.

flamingkillamajig wrote: Meh take it to canada and make it legal.

Even in Canada, one does not simply marry written words on a computer screen .

Skaven can be successful with some oddball builds. I ran Queek in a unit with the banner of discipline.
That made the skaven leadership 9 before ranks.
Crazy eh?
8 units of 20 clan rats, all with standard and musician, 4 mortars, 4 ratling guns, 2x6 poison sling gutter runners, 2 warp lightning cannons and 2 plague claws.
3 warlords (2 level 2's, 1 with doom rocket)
and the chief BSB.

Leadership on the army is unusually high (9 base near general) and packs a stupid amount of shooting.

Usually the 8 weapon teams and 4 warmachines would properly thin and eliminate enemy units prior to clan rats seeing combat. The army performed stupidly well vs enemy elite armies, often shooting them off the board.

-Matt

My two Warptokens: as said above, you don't need Slaves. Not at all. Clanrats can hold the enemy down while you line up a flank charge just fine. Stormvermin can actually put the hurt on the enemy. I'm not a big fan of Weapon Teams, but that's only because I've seen list after list that uses them almost exclusively.

The thing is, when my girlfriend and I started this game, she asked me, "which army do you want to play?", and I said, "the one with the most models". So I'm always going to include at least some Slaves. They're a key part of the Skaven army and culture.

...though to be fair, I'd like to see them go down to WS1 or something, to justify their cost. Too often have I sent 50 Slaves into combat, gotten into position to counter-charge, re-assembled the unit into a Horde, and then discovered that my Slaves, point-for-point, killed more than they gave up. That should not happen.

@flamingkillamajig: how are 40 Clanrats a small unit? That's usually the magic number for me. I can sometimes get away with 30, but then I need to be really careful how I deploy and maneuver, or it all comes down like a pack of cards.

Thanks guy! Hmm lots to chew on, incl my tail.

I will be running about this config at 2.5K, let me know if it's too few ratty bodies:

58 Clan Rats
PWM
Standard
Pushing SB and also BSB bunker

40 Clan Rats
PWM
Standard

40 Clan Rats
WFT

40 Slaves
Musician

The rest is Abomb, various warmachines and Rogers (I know I know, but such sweet models and I don't want to paint anymore infantry :()

Post how it goes mate

Should be very difficult to lose with that.

---
Making Slaves WS 1 would have about the same effect as giving them only 1 attack...just saying.

I don't really like clan rats pushing the bell, sure you can get very lucky with the rolls but even though you've 58 dudes pushing it their T3 with no save (unless you forgot to add it in?)

Slightly more on topic playing ultra-competitively slaves are a better choice over clan rats any day of the week but that in no way, shape or form means you can't have a strong list without them

58 dudes with T3 no save...for how many points? Right.

They'll easily outfight 90 percent or more of the units that cost a similar amount. Also, don't they come with LA and the option for a shield?

They come with the options but it looks like he hasn't purchased them, but their not a plain 250-300 point unit, their also bunkering a minimum of 70 point BSB and a grey seer on bell clocking in at 490, and that is both of them without upgrades, so its no longer a small relatively cheap unit with no saves, its a win dependent 850+ unit which is why I'd worry about it.....I don't like bells personally but if i was running one I'd throw it in stormvermin

I see but what is there to worry about? I mean cannon might be a threat but not because of the Clanrats. Certainly, a few units can tackle it but most will be stuck there for a while - after they make it through a living carpet of chaff if you want, or multiple high strength flamer shots etc. - and then get flank charged by something.

Stormvermin are a wee bit better with HA, higher WS and so on but there will be less of them to start with when you only have a fixed amount of points. Against the really scary stuff, HA doesn't matter anyways.

You don't need slaves at all. My friend always destroys me when I play him and he never uses them. Even he admits that slaves are stupidly cheap and game breaking. The only thing that can really effectively deal with them is dwellers. All the other stuff has a few counters. A-bomb for example will go down easily to any kind of shooting

My mock-up list is all Clan Rats with HW/Shield, which from what I've seen in batreps etc is the way to go with them.

Slaves are just naked, I think I have 2 boxes of the old dog-faced skaven regiment kicking around that I can use for them.

@Tiarna Fuilteach: Clanrats come standard with light armour. If you give them shields, the only thing Stormvermin have over them in terms of durability is WS4 and I5. But they lose a Parry save and cost 2.5pts more/model.
I'd take Clanrats over Stormvermin for Bell-duty any day.

And while Slaves are better that Clanrats in most ways, they are completely reliant on characters to stick around, but they make horrible character bunkers, since a bad break test will equal instant death.
I always run Slaves--as said before, I think it's part of the Skaven experience--but I never run them exclusively.

And the Seer+Bell would be 440 without upgrades. I also wouldn't bother putting my BSB in there, since (1) the unit's Unbreakable, and (2) it's a big enough target as-is.

@Jayo'r: with T5 and a 4+ Regen, how does the Abomination go down to shooting easy?

@Mike der Ritter: WS1 Slaves would need a 5+ to hit WS3 and up, making them ineffective against even the worst of units. And WS2 Gobbos would hit them on 3's.
You want your Slaves to get stuck-in with the biggest and baddest stuff your opponent has, so your big-and-bad stuff can mop up the rest. So if your opponent forces your WS1 Slaves into combat with their mediocre units, the penalty would be even worse.
I'd also consider S2 Slaves. Harsher still, but also more generally ineffective. The only thing that would make me hesitate there is that Dwellers would become even more effective, and that spell needs Zero Help being awesome. I'd go as far as saying that the title "best spell in the game" is not an exaggeration.

Why don't they just make slaves 2 and a half points instead of 2 pts base? I mean it doesn't sound like much at first but that way they cost more for numbers and if it was 3 pts in comparison to 4 for clanrats slaves won't seem worth it to take. I know slaves might sound ridiculous but you have to understand that if they fail a leadership check they explode and the whole unit is shredded including anything in it. Also their leadership is pretty terrible (Ld 2 base without characters or 'strength in numbers'). In comparison with vampire counts zombies are WS 1, str 3, toughness 3, cause fear and are unstable/unbreakable for 3 pts. Zombies are super cheap for a fear causing unit that never breaks and they're pretty much what you guys are suggesting slaves should be. Also zombies can get raised back, raised beyond starting size and are risen more easily so it's really good. I've gotta say i'd be a h*ll of a lot more afraid of a mass of zombies in comparison to say slaves. Slaves can and will run or auto-die if they lose a combat. Zombies cause fear and will never panic ever. Sure zombies die faster when combat is lost but they can be risen back unlike slaves and they do so much more. I mean i guess both of these units have different purposes but i'd be a lot more annoyed by a mass of zombies than by a mass of slaves.

The reason why you'd use clanrats or stormvermin in comparison to slaves is that slaves can't take any weapons teams and slaves have super crappy leadership if they can't take advantage of a character's leadership (practically auto-breaking units and when you think about it skaven-slaves are the guardsmen conscripts possibly of fantasy except they're as numerous as tyranid gaunts if you could compare the 2 universes). "DIE!!! Die under wave after wave of extremely sucky guys!" I guess slaves are the conscripts of fantasy then except slaves can be shot into. Also am i the only person that thinks despite commissars shooting and killing cowards and other such things and commanders doing things that might be considered war crimes that it's a little weird that on the tabletop guardsmen, nids and orks will never shoot into a combat they're a part of? Nids just see gaunts as disposable, orks don't care and would probably laugh at blowing up their buddies and guard commanders would just consider it as victory at almost any cost.

I feel the old, give Skaven Slaves unstable thread still presented the best option.

Slaves WILL cost more in a couple of years when a new Skaven book hits the shelves (cue Marauders, cue State Troops, Orcs, Ghouls, and, in a way, even TK Skellies) but that's still a long time in the future. They first need to invent new models to go with the new book.

Slaves will die even more to that one Fire spell that affects the whole unit. S4 hurts on a 3, Dwellers only on a 4+. In fact, Slaves are massively resilient to any of these spells because of their numbers. In my neck of the woods there will usually still be 50 of the buggers left after a successful Dweller, plus the two other units, and you've not even hurt any of the really scary stuff.

Jayo'r wrote:
A-bomb for example will go down easily to any kind of shooting

That is not my experience. Neither my five Marauder horse nor my five Pistoliers could ever hurt it. The Crossbowmen can find themselves on the other side of the field because a HPA deploys after them and with two turns to shoot they cannot waste one of them on moving. Repeater crossbows and TK arrows usually bounce.

Sure, I've seen one go down to triple flaming cannon but that was on planet bowling ball in Battle for the Pass and pretty much tailored to this one model. A HBVG + Engineer shooting three turns can do it - if it isn't killed by GR or counterbattery, suffers no misfires, has no modifiers and everything simply goes perfectly. It's a far cry from "dying easily to any kind of shooting".

Warpsolution wrote:

@Mike der Ritter: WS1 Slaves would need a 5+ to hit WS3 and up, making them ineffective against even the worst of units. And WS2 Gobbos would hit them on 3's.

I see I've been playing too much Chaos and Elves lately. For a second I thought they'de be hitting on 5's anyways (which is true against lots of stuff from these books). I stand corrected!

@flamingkillamajig: shooting into your own troops was--almost--unheard of, historically. A great way to get assassinated.
But yes, Zombies and Slaves are similar, and Slave-cost is a very sensitive thing. Half a point won't do much (25pts more for a block of 50 is still worth it), but a full point is too far. That's why I suggest a Slave downgrade, to make them useful as a tar pit and re-director, and that is it. I'm tired of Death Frenzy'd, Bless With Filth'd Skavenslaves in horde formation being capable of what they are (12 wounds to a Gutstar).
Also, Zombies seem better on paper, but remember that they die twice as fast and cost 50% more. It is, I've found, easy to wipe out even a large unit in a single phase. And if not, they can be raised. For precious Power Dice.

@Mike: Flame Cage is a pretty brutal spell for all my Skaven (I usually opt to not move). I just hate Dwellers so much because (1) it's awesome against Hordes, (2) it's snipes characters like nothing else, and (3) it's in the best defensive Lore in the book.

Warpsolution wrote:
@flamingkillamajig: shooting into your own troops was--almost--unheard of, historically. A great way to get assassinated.
But yes, Zombies and Slaves are similar, and Slave-cost is a very sensitive thing. Half a point won't do much (25pts more for a block of 50 is still worth it), but a full point is too far. That's why I suggest a Slave downgrade, to make them useful as a tar pit and re-director, and that is it. I'm tired of Death Frenzy'd, Bless With Filth'd Skavenslaves in horde formation being capable of what they are (12 wounds to a Gutstar).
Also, Zombies seem better on paper, but remember that they die twice as fast and cost 50% more. It is, I've found, easy to wipe out even a large unit in a single phase. And if not, they can be raised. For precious Power Dice.

@Mike: Flame Cage is a pretty brutal spell for all my Skaven (I usually opt to not move). I just hate Dwellers so much because (1) it's awesome against Hordes, (2) it's snipes characters like nothing else, and (3) it's in the best defensive Lore in the book.

Why in the world is your opponent casting dwellers on the slaves, instead on your general? Without the general, the slaves chances of lasting a single round in combat is pretty slim.
Count yourself lucky you opponent isn't gunning for your leadership.

Comparing to zombies is really tough. They get a lot of synergy in the list. When I run my zombie hordes, I take a pair of mortis engines so they show up with 5+ regen, while the engines inflict hits on the enemy units and scream into the combat. With the corpse cart near, they zombies are ASF and get back up in great numbers. I'm not going to say slaves are fair, better or worse the zombie. I'm just saying that the two armies play way to different to compare the two in a meaningful way.

-Matt

Who needs slaves. I got Plague Monks.

Me. I need Slaves.

@Matt: that is absolutely, 100% true. I've only ever had my Clanrats and Stormvermin (housing my Seer and BSB respectively) Dweller'd, never my Slaves.
But I hate that spell so much that I'd just as soon not make it better, even though no one would ever in their right mind take advantage of it.

Warpsolution wrote:
That's why I suggest a Slave downgrade, to make them useful as a tar pit and re-director, and that is it. I'm tired of Death Frenzy'd, Bless With Filth'd Skavenslaves in horde formation being capable of what they are (12 wounds to a Gutstar).

I'm confused. Wouldn't your change (WS1) make almost no difference in the scenario above? They're still 3A, Posion on 6s and slowly dying. S1/2/3 don't matter for armor purposes, so nothing changes there...

That tactic would still be perfectly viable unless you make them immune to those spells or something silly.


Edit: almost no difference, not absolutely no difference. You would still reduce the number of non-poison hits (for what they're worth).

They'd die faster to WS2 as well.

Really, I wasn't saying that Slaves need a downgrade because of Such-and-Such combination. That's never the way to do things, in my opinion (if a combo gets out of hand, deal with the combo, rather than re-building the rest of the game around it).
But making Slaves so terrible at fighting that they'll never come out ahead in the points race is a goal worth pursuing.

I don't get it warpsolution. As a skaven player and overall why would you want slaves to never come out ahead in points? I mean if flanked they tend to eat it faster than anything else considering the whole 'strength in numbers' rule goes to sh*t. At that point you'd need a general and BSB in the exact center with slaves or similar surrounding them and it's still usually just a LD 7 with re-rolls when 'strength in numbers' is negated. As far as leadership tests go that's pretty bad.

I dunno i need more skaven . It's a shame you need a sh*t ton of skaven to do anything. I feel like i should at least have a couple hundred more than i currently have. I'm not entirely fond of spending ungodly amounts of money just to get all the slaves i'd need. I mean several hundred dollars plus in slaves alone does not equal fun times for my wallet :(. I just don't have that kind of money to throw down.

I've found that IoB + Ebay has made them decently affordable compared to a lot of WHFB armies. I mean, WHFB is still way more expensive than 40K, but still.

Slaves kinda throw a wrench in there though, plus like I said I think the Clan rat models just look too sweet to make them slaves. I mean, they're visibly clan rats. Luckily I have a couple boxes of the old dog-faced, monkey skaven, so they'll do.

@flamingkillamajig:

1. Skavenslaves are not meant to earn you points on their own; they exist to absorb punishment so your other units can earn more points than they otherwise would.

2. The fact that Slaves stand a very decent chance of killing more points worth of stuff than they give up before they achieve the above goal is icing on the cake and, in my opinion, a good place to start to tone them down again.

3. If your Slaves (a) get flanked, (b) are out of range of the General, or (c) both at once, they'll die. And that's fine. That's their one weakness; large Slave units makes your battle line more rigid because they're entirely dependent on the General to stick it out.
But Ld7 with a re-roll has a 75% chance of sticking around. That's not bad at all.

@More Dakka: there are several models in the Clanrat box that are obviously Slaves and nothing but. They're shackled and have whip-welts and such.
I just can't stand using the old models with the new ones; the style is just so obviously different, let alone the quality (and durability) of the models. Putting them all together in an army ought to be a crime against aesthetics.