Amaya wrote:
The argument that women fall into cliched roles doesn't really hold water with me. The same is true of male characters, especially for minorities (including fantasy expy races).

The sexualization of female characters is extremely disturbing though.

Opposing viewpoint. Her dissertation is lol worthy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpFk5F-S_hI

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
That's a fair criticism actually, really stifles discussion, though considering the sheer amount of harassment the video's creator caught during the KS campaign it's not exactly surprising.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Do you think it's a teensy bit unreasonable to criticise her for not opening herself up to abuse in comments and bombing the rating of the video just for the topic? I'm having a hard time seeing how there'd be a productive "discussion" in the youtube comments.

 Ahtman wrote:
I like how not having comments on Youtube is akin to being a fascist that ignores dissension and avoids debate.

Apparently the youtube comment area is now a reasonable, scholastic discussion board. I must have slipped into the Mirror Mirror universe.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Okay. I don't see how disabling comments and rating is "refusing to deal with dissenting viewpoints" though. It seems entirely rational to me to not want to spend 40 hours a day deleting abuse from your youtube comments.

 Compel wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Whether she likes it or not she has established herself as a public figure and she must hold herself to a reasonable standard of conduct.

Not that I'm disagreeing with the intention of your point. But that's sounding like a classic paradox to me!

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
What I don't understand is why youtube comments are required to be the venue for this opposing point of view. There's a whole Internet out there and she isn't preventing anyone from posting on any of it. She can even choose to reply using her youtube channel and include links to the dissenting opinion in question if she wants to. Filtering through abusive youtube comments potentially takes a large amount of time, not to mention emotional energy. It is not free.

That said, I didn't really see a lot in the video to disagree with anyway. It seemed like a pretty factual account of things - not much of a debate topic.

 Compel wrote:
Public figures.... Reasonable standard of conduct....

T'was a joke.

 Compel wrote:
No probs.

I don't know much about youtube, but would 'video responses' still be allowed to be attached? Or does the original poster need to agree to them.

 Melissia wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So freedom of speech should only apply when people agree with what is being said?

Ahem.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't agree with her strict control of published comments

 Lynata wrote:
[]This. From what I've seen of the internet's reaction to the initial kickstarter, nothing good could have possibly come out of it.
The idea that some sort of "policy of standards" would have prevented abusive comments and sexist jokes to flood the comments section and detract from the video's actual content is naive at best, a desperate attack on the creator's assumed intentions and the video's validity at worst. YouTube doesn't work that way, and I think that, actually, everyone here knows this.
From how I see it, the video was created to raise awareness and to inform, not as a platform for debate. That will happen elsewhere. I'm fairly sure the author will still receive a load of flak or even threats for posting this without an open comments section on YT.

 Lynata wrote:
"Well written and polite" debate happens elsewhere. The goal of the campaign is to raise awareness, as the "well written and polite" discussions have been going on for years by now. Hardliners debating hardliners until someone gets tired and leaves serve no-one. You may as well organise a talkshow with the Pope and Dawkins and see what good that'll do for the relationship between christians and atheists.
Unfortunately, things such as these are entirely a matter of perception, and either you "feel" that something is wrong and needs improvement, or you don't. That's it.

Also, the comments for this video are closed entirely. YT also offers an option for having comments require authorisation by a video's creator before they appear, but she did not make use of it.

 Melissia wrote:
One can disagree with someone but still empathize strongly with why they did what they did.

 Melissia wrote:
I've answered your question three times now. No matter how many times you ask the question, the answer is STILL right there in front of you, and it's not changing.

 Melissia wrote:
Yes you have.

 Melissia wrote:
The same exact post I have quoted to you three times now.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't agree with her strict control of published comments

How the feth is this confusing?

 Melissia wrote:
I WAS saying it in response to the freedom of speech issue.

How the hell could I have said "I don't agree with her actions" any clearer?

 Melissia wrote:
Just like numerous, NUMEROUS other women who have spoken out and gotten threats like "I hope you get raped to death", even on issues completely unrelated to feminism.

I don't agree with her more extreme views, but the gaming community is quite gakky when it comes to its treatment of women.

 Melissia wrote:
And yet it is tolerated, because people justify those actions.

 Compel wrote:
I'm just really not sure that's true, Melissa, as far as this youtube video is concerned.

However, I believe one of the female Mass Effect writers got hammered recently by internet trolls after writing on a similar subject and I believe (sadly, I'm saying that a lot... my googlefu is weak tonight), a lot of the internet and other writers rallied to her side.

Today/Yesterday was International Womens Day, a lot of workplaces did sections, blog posts, celebrations of female contributions to their business.

For example, instead of talking about how unfair this all is, instead talk about how influential Ada Lovelace was.

Fifteen years of adventure; BioWare writer Ann Lemay on life in the industry

By night, games including World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria, occupy some of Ann Lemay’s time. By day, she’s a writer in the games industry. Starting her career in 1997, Lemay’s worked a broad cross-section of industry jobs: Community Manager, Graphic Designer, Game Designer, and as a Game Writer. Since August 15th 2011, she’s been employed with EA BioWare (Montreal). Before her career in games, Lemay had completed a B.A. in Art History, which armed her with essential skills she’d need in the industry.
“Being able to organize vast amount of information? Priceless. Also, a yearlong stint in telecom as an information architect is beyond useful when it comes to tracking script/dialog variables, eh! Wire-framing is my best friend.” While working on her second B.A. at Concordia, Lemay taught herself web coding. She describes her ability to understand and track the numerous variables and conditionals BioWare writers handle as an invaluable skill rooted into that self-taught skill.

Her love for computer games met a moment of perfect timing—Lemay was ready to start her job hunt when Ubisoft founded their studio in Montreal. “I was fortunate in that Ubisoft was also looking to hire regardless of pertinent industry skill, aware that they were basically going to be training up their first generation work force. We were, all of us, very lucky to be part of a group of people who got to enter the industry without specific videogame experience and were trained on the job.”Coming into the field, Lemay, an avid adventure game player, was equipped with female role models, among them Jane Jensen of the Gabriel Knight games, and Roberta Williams, who worked on titles that include King Quest series and Laura Bow games.
Lemay has now been working in the games industry for fifteen years; she’s watched the conversations about prejudice and privilege evolving across that time. Early in her career, she witnessed and personally experienced the types of industry sexism women are still familiar with. From the basic ignorance born of privilege to conscious sexism, little support existed for women in the industry. Addressing sexism via anti-discrimination policies was something the industry had to develop. Until policies about discrimination and sexual harassment were put into place, coping with a hostile work environment was ignoring it to the best of one’s ability and trying to move on.
“Early on, there was little to no support for women in this regard in the industry. Later on, sexual discrimination initiatives were set up and I had the chance to rely on those at least once—but it is telling that the person with whom I had problems was still allowed to be the one to evaluate me when the time came for annual reviews.” Other women at the same company had equally difficult times attempting to see their cases heard fairly.
“While I’m seeing definite improvement from how things were years ago, anti-discrimination policies (regarding many various –isms) are still dependent on the personnel involved. Most folk I know who have had to deal with reporting such matters, men or women, have worries about backlash with reporting something depending on the factors and people involved.” Then and now, not speaking out about discriminatory barriers encountered in the industry is in part about self-defense: you can’t be trolled and harassed if the information isn’t out there.
While the support for those dealing with sexism has evolved and increased, women taking active roles in mentoring—a cultural and educational boon for those with effective mentors—has been increasing. Though other female developers were in the industry when she started, Lemay describes them as “…distant, quasi-mythical figures.” Whether a woman started in games decades ago or yesterday, access to mentors remains an issue. Lemay had the drive and ability to flourish sans mentor, working with colleagues and seniors who supported her and treated her as a capable developer, while others were less able to do the same.
“There were fellow developers and seniors who treated me as a developer first and foremost, and supported me as I sought to learn and improve my skills. There were some who didn’t—who were stopped by the “wall” of my gender. Still, someone believed in my enough to give me a chance at being a writer in 2004 (hi Gary!) and to this day, I pay it forward as best as I can.” That crucial moment with a supportive mentor provided Lemay with her current outlook towards mentoring.
“I’ve been making efforts to encourage juniors in the field and people wanting to join the field since. I haven’t been making this a gender specific effort; anyone approaching me, I’ll try to assist and support as I can. But—whenever I get the chance to help a women break in the field, or improve her lot in the industry, I am glad I get the chance to do so.”
Mentorship, to Lemay, is not about teaching someone about a trade. Mentors are aware of how the field works, proactively reaching out and helping others through the social and political structures of companies and projects, who can sympathize when it all feels like too much, and offer their support.
“I’ve tried to do this, to instill better communication and networking among writers, and just people in general, when I could. Invariably, people respond to this—you have to take the time to reach out to another human being and assume the best. The results are far more often positive than not.” Lemay believes in creating an industry culture that welcomes women, fosters mentorship, and addresses both gender and privilege.
“It’s important that we have more visible women in the industry. It’s important that there are more women in the industry. There are far more men aware of issues of gender and privilege today than there ever were when I started, but the more women are visible in our field, the more women not in our field will perhaps believe there’s a place for them here among us. I’d like to see our numbers increase, and both visibility and mentorship opportunities will help in this regard.”

Lemay’s found a number of other women, from companies she’s worked at and outside them, who have a unifying attitude of sticking together and being supportive. This has become particularly apparent in the social media age. “Twitter has made this phenomenon truly without barriers, as well—and I’m very, very appreciative of this.” Though many can point to social media as a way to keep in touch with peers, Lemay was firm that it could be utilized in a meaningful way. “Twitter in particular has made social connections across the industry so much easier. It’s amazing how simple it is to connect with others and establish ties with, via Twitter. Professional networking too, yes, but socially—it’s an amazing platform in that sense, and I can’t overstate how integral it’s been to my experience in terms of reaching out to others in the industry, over the past few years. “

With a network of peers in a high-stress field, Lemay’s handling of work stress is aided by her own workplace, where a culture that enables communication can lead to problem-solving. But the passion of her coworkers helps just as much.
“Yes, we have deadlines and—as with the rest of the game industry—loaded work schedules. But I’m working with people who, across all departments, are invested in the narrative on every level. I am also working with people who are highly respectful of their colleagues on every level—it makes everything about my job so very awesome, I can’t even begin to tell you how much.”

Slowly, but surely, the games industry is evolving. Though the culture of the games industry itself contains people who accept privilege and prejudiced attitudes, toleration of such behavior is no longer widespread, and active questioning of such entrenched perspectives is growing.
“I’m seeing a huge change in awareness among devs (gender irrelevant) regarding prejudices of all sorts in the industry, today. Things have changed and progressed, among developer—far more people speak out now.”
Outside the professionals present in the industry are those training and studying on their way to entering it—some of them students Lemay has had the pleasure of teaching.
“I had the chance to teach a class for the Champlain college, a few years ago (wow, time flies!). It was an exceptional experience for me, and one of the things I remember clearly was how hungry to change things my students were. I know the realities of the industry can make this hard on people sometimes, but I hope they still have this drive today. They made me think our industry has a good future.”

 Lynata wrote:
But that's not correct, else we would not know about the shitstorm of mysogynistic insults that were hurled around. As you have pointed out yourself, she already has the "framework" she could point to ... and did. There's no need for yet another one, as it would just repeat the same stuff again.

 Lynata wrote:
I think that responses to properly presented criticism would lend more credibility to the author. Unfortunately, that's just how it would be in an ideal world. On RealEarth, I doubt that anyone would truly change their views - resulting only in an endless back-and-forth that takes up much of the creator's time and thus delays on further episodes. Ultimately, it would be a waste of time, just like the debates I had with Veteran Sergeant about women in the military. And the "waste of time" bit is actually something both of us agree to. So why even bother? All we're doing is pulling off a show for the viewers, defending our opinions without any chance of actually "winning" the debate. And we at least have the advantage of actually using a proper forum, with all the features that come with it.

 Lynata wrote:
That video is a documentation, just like the ones we see in TV. There you can't debate with the author either. You watch it, form your opinion, and then maybe discuss it with people you know.

The very limited comment section on YT simply isn't intended to support proper debates, and in this case would only get flooded with so much crap that proper discourse is impossible, especially given the character limit, as well as the influence a majority can take on the comments, such as downvoting anything that does not conform to their views, and upvoting what does. You'd end up with majority-approved opinion in the "best comments" section, yet not see potential reaction to it (regardless of how valid or invalid) since the respective answers have long since vanished into the backdrop. I believe an uploader's responses are shown in a separate section nowadays, yet even so that'd mean you have one person facing an army of opponents, even though other users might love to chime in as well.

 Lynata wrote:
Her previous videos allowed comments, and this happened: http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/06/harassment-misogyny-and-silencing-on-youtube/
Honestly, I don't know if *I* would want to bother to read through such comments to dig up one or two who might be worth responding to (which there actually were) either, at least not on every single video I'm uploading (if I would upload anything to YT).
Being subjected to such a massive amount of negativity and outright hatred can be disheartening. In not bothering, she saves herself a good amount of time and mood. If she had bothered to respond, nothing would change either. So what's the sensible thing to do here?

 Lynata wrote:
Sort of. It shouldn't be necessary, but society isn't perfect. At times it feels as if people just don't perceive it as an issue if you don't scream loud enough, but instead just accept "the bitching" (hah, fittingly even this word is sexist ) as part of daily routine. A matter of sensitivity, if you will.
Also, society currently seems to face a weird trend of polarisation - promoting sexism and equality at the same time via different (or even the same) outlets. It's no real surprise that the debates become more hot in response, as people are subjected to and thus influenced by conflicting material, almost forcing them to develop a natural resistance to either one or the other.

It's all a bit chaotic, and I think it will take a few generations more until civilisation figures out a sensible balance - be it with portrayal or perception, or both. But hey, at least we're moving!

 Lynata wrote:
In essence, yes. Else we wouldn't have dakkanauts comparing half-naked women to half-naked men and call it the same thing - or (to flip the table, just for fairness' sake) criticising such opinions. A whole lot of stuff is just a matter of current cultural perception. Take the age of consent, for example - which not only varies hugely by country, but also by era.

Sure, there's a definition in the dictionary. "Prejudice or discrimination based on sex". But where do prejudice and discrimination start? The lines are drawn individually, else we wouldn't have a thread like this. Just think back a few months and recall some of the controversial developer comments. "Girlfriend Mode" - sexist comment or not? Debate starting in 3 ... 2 ...

 Ouze wrote:
Are you guys also alleging she sockpuppeted all those hundreds or however many offensive comments? Because, if she didn't, lets hear the rationalization for why those were all OK. I'd love to hear more people explain why it was actually her fault people posted they wished to rape her to death.

 Melissia wrote:
In the eyes of many people, including several responses in this thread, those responses were okay because she's a feminist, and therefor she is a BadPerson™ and deserves the abuse heaped upon her..

 Ouze wrote:
We've already established there were a storm of misogynistic insults.

 Ouze wrote:
We've also somehow established that it's somehow her fault. I'd like one of people who made comments like the above to explain why the people posting the comments are totally blameless in this.

 Ouze wrote:
She published "the most inflammatory for sympathy", but that's.... after the fact, right?

 Ouze wrote:
I mean, what she did with the comments came after they were made.

 Ouze wrote:
So please, expand on your post. Tell me how she "incited them". Educate me! Difficulty: Show your work. That means not making a claim ("she only approved negative ones while blocking positive ones") and then posting a link to a video that not only doesn't contain proof, doesn't actually seem to contain the allegation).

 Ouze wrote:
You're doing a great deal of attempting to excuse them

 Lynata wrote:
I'm not sure if this is a matter of skewed perception or scepticism on your part, but she did not "publish the worst", she published an unedited random screenshot to showcase the amount and nature of abuse directed at her.
I also thought that this would be the framework you were referring to, but I guess I misunderstood.

And judging from the screenshot, her detractors pretty much framed themselves.

 Lynata wrote:
I would presume she chose youtube because it is the single-most popular video hosting site on the 'web, and thus the best way to reach maximum audience. Since it is informing/presenting that is her goal, this obviously takes precedence.

I think you're just trying to find something, anything to criticise because deep down you don't agree with the message. Why not discuss the message, then?

 Lynata wrote:
As for why she gets more abuse than others, personally I would suspect this has to do with her popularity. Other messages like hers just are not as well known, and thus less visited by those people who would leave negative comments.

 Lynata wrote:
I think you're seeing more than there is to it - apparently interpreting criticism on male supremacy as an attack on all males.

 Lynata wrote:
Indeed. If society truly wants equality, it should actually be rather easy to fight sexism simply because one only needs to point out differences and trends. Kind of like that video.
What I was referring to was more referring to how some people won't acknowledge the differences as being wrong or where they originate from, even where they are obvious to exist.

 Ouze wrote:
When my wife and I eat out, we usually pay depending on who's got more free cash at the time

 Ouze wrote:
So, when is part two of this series due? Or is there no ETA? I know this part, the one that was released, was delayed some apparently.

Also, how many parts total?

 illuknisaa wrote:
A funny thing I read on steam forums:

Majority of zombies in games are male.

 Fafnir wrote:
but by her awful treatment by the videogame playing community

 LordofHats wrote:
Or Lego Fans, TV fans, Hunger Games fans the list goes on (most of her videos have nothing to do with video games) Even setting aside my conspiracy theory that she orchestrated that entire series of events for financial gain, there's no real reason to believe that the backlash was solely from one source. She did for most of that videos run leave it unmoderated, the first time she's ever done that (all her other videos have comment moderation on) so we have no basis on which to assume that the hate is only about the subject of women in video games. And one way or another, links to it were spammed across 4chan which pretty much guaranteed a crap storm would follow..

 LordofHats wrote:
I did say earlier in the thread that, for something she was given a lot of money to do, Damsel in Distress may not have been the best trope to kick everything off with. There are better ones she could have done, like the root of nearly all the tropes I suspect she's likely to cover: Women are Delicate Would have been a much better way to set the stage. But then I never credited her with being good at what she's doing so *shrugs*

 AlexHolker wrote:
The main problem is that there are two distinct groups that lay claim to that word - sex-positive feminists and anti-porn feminists - one of which is happy to accuse innocent people of hurting women by not conforming to their orthodoxy. It's like how vegetarians sometimes find themselves being tarred with the same brush as the "meat is murder" loons.

 LordofHats wrote:
The issue I feel mainly for Feminists is they have nothing really big to rally behind. First there was the right to vote, the right to work, the right for equal protection under the law. All of those are big things that can be pointed to and definitively identified (and there still are quite a few such things like the difference between men and women's wages). When trying to change gender roles and the perception of gender you're really stuck arguing what people often think of in their heads but never realize they're thinking. It's really messy because you have to explain why that's a problem in grueling detail for people to get it and even then sometimes they still don't get it. How does one wage battle with the subconcious social expectations and identities of society? The long and arduous way, that's how. It becomes easier for the general public to be lazy, find some crazy people, and write off the whole group than to pay attention (and I say this as someone probably fairly indicative of the general population when it comes to this subject).