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The argument that women fall into cliched roles doesn't really hold water with me. The same is true of male characters, especially for minorities (including fantasy expy races).

The sexualization of female characters is extremely disturbing though.


Opposing viewpoint. Her dissertation is lol worthy.








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 LordofHats wrote:


On topic, I fail to see how abusing a trope is relevant to anything except a lack of originality in writing narrative (aka being a one trick pony). Have you read Dean Koontz lately? Or Tom Clancy? Or most authors, film makers, and game designers? They always use the same tropes. Over and over and over again. Hell look at Bioware. They just took KotOR's plot and recycled it into Mass Effect 1 (Not to mention how nearly every Bioware game contains the Carth).

Because this particular trope constantly objectifies women and the damsels in distress often have similarities to the Madonna-Whore complex in that they are not real characters, but two dimensional ideals.

Edit: Varying the characters goes a long way in using the trope. Bioware can get away with DiD because both examples I gave earlier go on to become major players in the game that contribute greatly to your party. They are both over sexualized though.

I'm a shovanist and I think its sexist that we have a man on an advert that has no top on at all!! When a WOMAN!!! Wears a bra!!! RAEG ARGHAGHAGAHAHHAHAH

Just for the humour impaired, that was a joke....

Ok jokes aside the main thing I dislike about this video is the girl power boll... Can't say that...

In fairness there is sexism on both sides. For women it's a touch more important in terms of jobs. For men it's more a case of we don't really care since it doesn't affect us all that much...

 Amaya wrote:
The sexualization of female characters is extremely disturbing though.

Yeah. Because all men are this sexy:









This is where the complaint tends to fall on its face. Women aren't the only ones presented in physically appealing ways in video games. The men are too. The difference is that there aren't any masculinists around to decry this depiction of men as unfair, objectified, or wrong or whatever. Why? because its a stupid complaint.

No one wants to play a video game where this is the female lead:



She only gets to be a supporting character at best. Lets face it, society likes physically attractive people presented in physically attractive ways. Men and women.

Opposing viewpoint. Her dissertation is lol worthy.

The sad part. He made a better video and he probably wasn't paid a penny.

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Because this particular trope constantly objectifies women and the damsels in distress often have similarities to the Madonna-Whore complex in that they are not real characters, but two dimensional ideals.

Except that it doesn't. In Halo Combat Evolved, Cortanna suffers a DiD moment when she is captured by Guilty Spark, and the Chief is forced to fight to get her back. Does this make Cortanna not a real character, two dimensional, and weak? She's pretty much the icon of the Halo series, and probably as responsible for saving the world as the male lead since he can't really do much of anything without her helping him. Damsel in distress doesn't objectify women anymore than dude in distress objectifies men. These things are very vague tropes that can be used a billion different ways. You can even invert the trope at the same time you invoke it if you write it that way. The complaint here isn't a trope that objectifies women, its low quality writing that relegated female characters to being plot devices because the plots were irrelevant and there was no need to make those characters anything more than what they were.

Video games by and large have gakky stories the quality of which a five year old could probably equal, especially in first gen games when there wasn't time or data space to spend on an elaborate story and a random story was just thrown in as a context excuse most of the time for the game's actions and that bandwagoning being what it is 'Save the Princess' became a cliche throughout the 80's into the late 90's before everyone got tired of it which has happened a billion other times with nearly every other trope in existance. Except for Nintendo who revels in nostalgia and continues to use the trope because its 'classic.'

Edit: Varying the characters goes a long way in using the trope. Bioware can get away with DiD because both examples I gave earlier go on to become major players in the game that contribute greatly to your party.

Bioware got away with it because their use of DiD wasn't an excuse plot where the damsel is an irrelevant issue that needs no characterization or even a personality quirk to advance the story. Their mere presence is enough to facilitate Mario's rampage of stomping and coin collecting and mushroom eating.

They are both over sexualized though.

Really? Liara sure cause there's that whole sex scene and all and the Asari's sexuality comes up a lot in the series, but Bastilla?



I mean damn. that's one of the most conservative outfits on a female lead ever! And she's practically out of the 1950's in her mentality.

LeBlanc is just porn!

 Formosa wrote:
I stopped at "woman are not weaker, its a myth"... Actually sweetheart it's a biological fact, woman are as smart as men etc.
But they are weaker...
And "woman dont need to be protected by.men"
Ok thats bull too, because men are stronger, woman do need to be protected by men, from other less scrupulous men, if that suddenly stopped happening.. Well bad stuff happens in those countries.

I dislike feminists...

Considering how thin I am, I know a lot of women who are stronger than I am.

And then there's "The Amazon" who works out at the gym near me. I'd like to see any man try to protect her. Just because it's not as common for a woman to be as physically powerful as a man, doesn't mean it's impossible. What's more, who said physical strength was the only measure of power a character could have? What about using things other than basic strength to solve challenges and defeat enemies?

Geez. I read the posts in the thread before I watched the video (I'm video-averse) and from them I expected some crazed radical feminist diatribe that only made sense in radfem context, but instead I found... a pretty matter of fact recounting of the history of a bunch of mostly-Nintendo characters. What the heck, guys.

It was interesting to watch, even if it didn't say anything especially groundbreaking. Maybe I'll see part two one day!

Actually LOH there's a fair counter that men in games aren't there as sex objects for women, but rather as power fantasies for men. Just something to consider.

Mhm, I think the main reason this just bored me to tears is that I don't even play any of the games that have this.

Games that I played with female lead or support characters...

Gears of War? Where they kick even more arse then the men?

Aaand... Halo? Where Cortana is the only reason MC survived the first few hours after Reach got owned? And the only reason he won... anything really, he would've lost almost every time without her there helping him out (don't forget that she also boosts his reflexes and coginitive power just by being integrated in the armor).

Then theres.... Yep... can't think of anything. To be fair, I don't play that many character driven games in the first place. And if they are, mostly RPG's, where more often then not, you can play a lead female regardless. (hell, female characters in fallout 1 and 2 are statistically better because the only gameplay effect they have is that men have weaker groins ).

And the Command and conquer videos don't count IMO because those things are making fun of themselves in the first place.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Actually LOH there's a fair counter that men in games aren't there as sex objects for women, but rather as power fantasies for men. Just something to consider.

And I get that. I'm one of the first people to stand up and ask why every single piece of media has to have some romantic sub-plot tacked onto it as if the developer just wanted to have someone around who can do the do with the main character even if it never actually happens. My issue is that most of the time complaints directed at female characters can often be equally applied to male characters. Most video game characters are designed to be sexually appealing, most of them are shallow and two dimensional, and most of them are incompetent beyond all reason and need the player character to show up to save the day. That most player characters happen to be men is just the side effect of demographic marketing, where even if women are a rising demographic in the industry the industry itself is still largely targeted at a male audience because they're still the primary audience for larger AAA games. What did Bungie do when they realized in Halo 3 that women were making up nearly a quarter of the online player base? They added the option to be a female Spartan in Halo: Reach.

Want more women in video games? Get all your friends off Farmville and get them to start playing Halo and Call of Duty (maybe not Call of Duty...)

I mean, hell why are we complaining about Peach being two dimensional? When's the last time Mario showed any personality? There's plenty to complain about in video game stories but that women are being disenfranchised is probably near the bottom of the list for me.

LordofHats wrote:My issue is that most of the time complaints directed at female characters can often be equally applied to male characters.

Context is important. In games, female characters are often designed to cater to the male audience. Male characters are designed to cater to ... the male audience.
There's no denying that this trend is shifting ever so slowly, but you can't really deny that it exists. And when something caters to a specific target audience, why should it regard that as a negative thing and something to complain about?

Soladrin wrote:Aaand... Halo? Where Cortana is the only reason MC survived the first few hours after Reach got owned? And the only reason he won... anything really, he would've lost almost every time without her there helping him out (don't forget that she also boosts his reflexes and coginitive power just by being integrated in the armor).

You're picking a weird example.



And really, being a "useful sidekick" doesn't necessarily make a "powerful character".
Boosting reflexes of the male who basically owns her is about as empowering as making sandwiches.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I stopped at "woman are not weaker, its a myth"... Actually sweetheart it's a biological fact, woman are as smart as men etc.
But they are weaker...
And "woman dont need to be protected by.men"
Ok thats bull too, because men are stronger, woman do need to be protected by men, from other less scrupulous men, if that suddenly stopped happening.. Well bad stuff happens in those countries.

I dislike feminists...

Considering how thin I am, I know a lot of women who are stronger than I am.

And then there's "The Amazon" who works out at the gym near me. I'd like to see any man try to protect her. Just because it's not as common for a woman to be as physically powerful as a man, doesn't mean it's impossible. What's more, who said physical strength was the only measure of power a character could have? What about using things other than basic strength to solve challenges and defeat enemies?

I agree on one point, physical power and power in.General are not the same thing.

Woman are not as strong as men, A woman may be stronger than A man, this is an exception thats proves the rule, no matter how hard q woman trains she will never be as physically strong as a man who also trains to his peak, mass dictates this, as does evolution.

Now dont.get this.mixed up with calling woman weak, they are not, they are stronger in other areas.

Now go look at all those hell hole countries where rape and murder are everyday kind of things and tell me that woman dont need protection,

Formosa wrote:Now go look at all those hell hole countries where rape and murder are everyday kind of things and tell me that woman dont need protection

You need to realise that this is, to a large degree, also a cultural issue. When girls grow up being instilled with the belief that they are supposed to be weak and defer to men, then this is likely to happen when they've grown up. In the case of Africa, this is in part due to the influence of European colonial powers and religious teachings, but it has not always been that way.

And I believe that the author was referring to strength in character rather than just physical strength. You can be the strongest human around, but when you lack bravery it will do you no good. Conversely, when you are brave enough, you can find ways to defend yourself against an opponent who is physically stronger. In fact, is this not a central theme to the classic hero tale? Is it not that the dragon is stronger than the knight, yet is still slain in the end?

What I think this thread needs, is a picture of the Jedi Exile meeting Atton Rand for the first time...

Also, if I remember my KOTORI correctly, Bastila was never actually a damsel in distress... She was just waiting to see who would show up, then broke out the cell herself.

On top of that, "men" and "women" aren't monolithic groups, they're made up of individual people. Unless the contention is that all men are stronger than all women, it's not really relevant that some men are physically stronger than some women. What matters is the individual.

 Lynata wrote:

LordofHats wrote:My issue is that most of the time complaints directed at female characters can often be equally applied to male characters.

Context is important. In games, female characters are often designed to cater to the male audience. Male characters are designed to cater to ... the male audience.
There's no denying that this trend is shifting ever so slowly, but you can't really deny that it exists. And when something caters to a specific target audience, why should it regard that as a negative thing and something to complain about?

Soladrin wrote:Aaand... Halo? Where Cortana is the only reason MC survived the first few hours after Reach got owned? And the only reason he won... anything really, he would've lost almost every time without her there helping him out (don't forget that she also boosts his reflexes and coginitive power just by being integrated in the armor).

You're picking a weird example.



And really, being a "useful sidekick" doesn't necessarily make a "powerful character".
Boosting reflexes of the male who basically owns her is about as empowering as making sandwiches.

I guess it helps a lot if you read the books. In many ways she's more powerful and did more important things then Master-chief himself did. For instance, after MC infiltrates a Covenant flag ship she hacks it, takes full control, flushes all atmosphere killing every covvy on it, then reprograms all the plasma weapons on it making them about a hundred times as effective and takes a fleet using that. Theres many more things like this. She could very well have been the main character if it wasn't a straight up FPS.

Also, I'd like to add that the halo 4 cortana actually has much more natural looking breasts and curves instead of the model figure the previous ones we're going for.

I like Chell from Portal.


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And Cate Archer from NoLF.

 BrookM wrote:
And Cate Archer from NoLF.

I'll watch it later.
By later I mean when comments and ratings are enabled.
If you are going to silence everyone who would have an opinion about your video, then your video isn't worth my time.

 Amaya wrote:
The argument that women fall into cliched roles doesn't really hold water with me. The same is true of male characters, especially for minorities (including fantasy expy races).

The sexualization of female characters is extremely disturbing though.

Opposing viewpoint. Her dissertation is lol worthy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpFk5F-S_hI

Her dissertation reminds me of a module that was taught when I went to university. It was very similar and the unspoken caveat was that you disagreed with the professor at the risk of failing the class. No dissent was tolerated, and any line of argument used to counter the professor's point of view was simply not allowed and ignored.

Nice find on the rebuttal video, I thought that was actually a lot more interesting than Part 1 of her series but we'll see what the others bring to the table. I agree that her content is not well presented, in her DiD video much of what she said was done so in layperson's terms (as she said was her goal), yet she still used more technical terms to remind the audience of her credentials.

I have to say though that I am in no way surprised that she moderates her youtube channel. Youtube comments are one of the cesspools of the internet so its hard to tell if she is framing the debate to suit her, or getting rid of the trolls. I'd hope she isn't doing what many others do and professing freedom of speech and expression.....so long as it complies with her world view.

She did play all the people trolling her online nicely though to help fund her kickstarter. Out of curiosity has any of her backers asked how to account for how she plans to spend the extra money from the kickstarter?

 Krellnus wrote:
I'll watch it later.
By later I mean when comments and ratings are enabled.
If you are going to silence everyone who would have an opinion about your video, then your video isn't worth my time.

That's a fair criticism actually, really stifles discussion, though considering the sheer amount of harassment the video's creator caught during the KS campaign it's not exactly surprising.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
That's a fair criticism actually, really stifles discussion, though considering the sheer amount of harassment the video's creator caught during the KS campaign it's not exactly surprising.

At the very least she should have some sort of published policy concerning the comments posted on her channel and what some of the grounds are for removing comments etc. it wouldn't kill her to respond to the polite comments either. If she doesn't deal with moderate voices she should not be surprised when all she hear are extremists. Than again this might suit her, ignore the sensible comments until they are frustrated and when they post in frustration use that as a pretext for ignoring what they said all along ("See I told you they're all like that")

Do you think it's a teensy bit unreasonable to criticise her for not opening herself up to abuse in comments and bombing the rating of the video just for the topic? I'm having a hard time seeing how there'd be a productive "discussion" in the youtube comments.

 Soladrin wrote:
I guess it helps a lot if you read the books. In many ways she's more powerful and did more important things then Master-chief himself did. For instance, after MC infiltrates a Covenant flag ship she hacks it, takes full control, flushes all atmosphere killing every covvy on it, then reprograms all the plasma weapons on it making them about a hundred times as effective and takes a fleet using that. Theres many more things like this. She could very well have been the main character if it wasn't a straight up FPS.

You can see this in the games as well. While she is effectively the Robin to Master Chief's Batman, in Halo Combat Evolved, and Halo 4, the Master Chief would have been completely incapable of saving the day without Cortana's help. She's not just in the game as a token character as female characters often are, she's really an integral part of the story.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Do you think it's a teensy bit unreasonable to criticise her for not opening herself up to abuse in comments and bombing the rating of the video just for the topic? I'm having a hard time seeing how there'd be a productive "discussion" in the youtube comments.

I think it is unreasonable for her to refuse to deal with dissenting viewpoints that are expressed in a constructive and mature manner, I do not believe that she should ignore someone simply because (s)he has an opposing perspective. I do not think that she should be subject to abusive or insulting comments. That is why I think that she should have some sort of standard for comments posted, so that way people can better see the rationale for what is and is not permitted. Without that, and what was highlighted in the second rebuttal video, she is leaving herself wide open to accusations that she is distorting the debate to shore up her position and refusing to hear those who disagree with her, which is academically dishonest at best.


I will state though that on reflection I'm not impressed with what she has to say so far. All she is doing is echoing what others have said before, but she is doing it on youtube to try and get her name established. I haven't seen anything of hers that suggests a way forward, or how things can be changed.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6264-Anita-Sarkeesian-The-Monster-Gamers-Created

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Do you think it's a teensy bit unreasonable to criticise her for not opening herself up to abuse in comments and bombing the rating of the video just for the topic? I'm having a hard time seeing how there'd be a productive "discussion" in the youtube comments.

I think it is unreasonable for her to refuse to deal with dissenting viewpoints that are expressed in a constructive and mature manner, I do not believe that she should ignore someone simply because (s)he has an opposing perspective. I do not think that she should be subject to abusive or insulting comments. That is why I think that she should have some sort of standard for comments posted, so that way people can better see the rationale for what is and is not permitted. Without that, and what was highlighted in the second rebuttal video, she is leaving herself wide open to accusations that she is distorting the debate to shore up her position and refusing to hear those who disagree with her, which is academically dishonest at best.

Agreed.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Do you think it's a teensy bit unreasonable to criticise her for not opening herself up to abuse in comments and bombing the rating of the video just for the topic? I'm having a hard time seeing how there'd be a productive "discussion" in the youtube comments.

Considering the absolutely horrific and incredibly stupid comments she was subject to just for starting the kickstarter for this project, I'm not at all surprised, and I don't blame her. The pure moronic vitrol she had to wade through just to get the project off the ground was awful, especially since many of the points she presents are valid, or at least worthy of proper discussion. There's certainly room for some intelligent discussion over this topic, and it's certainly important, as women become a more and more important demographic to videogames (around 40% right now, according to the ESA).

Personally, I consider myself an egalitarian, but in a similar vein, I'm also a feminist. And I feel that she's being crucified for all the wrong reasons. There's definitely room for discussion, and I would hope there's a decent channel for that, but the youtube comments section just is not that.

 Fafnir wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Do you think it's a teensy bit unreasonable to criticise her for not opening herself up to abuse in comments and bombing the rating of the video just for the topic? I'm having a hard time seeing how there'd be a productive "discussion" in the youtube comments.

Considering the absolutely horrific and incredibly stupid comments she was subject to just for starting the kickstarter for this project, I'm not at all surprised, and I don't blame her. The pure moronic vitrol she had to wade through just to get the project off the ground was awful, especially since many of the points she presents are valid, or at least worthy of proper discussion. There's certainly room for some intelligent discussion over this topic, and it's certainly important, as women become a more and more important demographic to videogames (around 40% right now, according to the ESA).

Personally, I consider myself an egalitarian, but in a similar vein, I'm also a feminist. And I feel that she's being crucified for all the wrong reasons. There's definitely room for discussion, and I would hope there's a decent channel for that, but the youtube comments section just is not that.

That's an unfortunate assossiciation fallacy though (on the internets part), just because a lot of "feminists" on tumblr are rather inane with their whole "lets make the world a matriarchy" (a silly idea to begin with, if anything the world should be a meritocracy) doesn't mean they all are, meaning there are probably a few diamonds in the rough, so to speak, that get the stupid and horrific comments for shock value because, "hey they are a feminist on tumblr right?"

It's actually kind of funny, in a way. I told my roomate/good friend that I was a feminist, and he looked upon that in a negative way.

The way we interpret "feminist" is kind of broken. Simply put, as a feminist, I feel that women should be open to the same rights, opportunities, and obligations as any man. I think that a lot of people in this current era would not have a problem agreeing with that. But for some reason, "feminist" becomes a dirty word.

I like how not having comments on Youtube is akin to being a fascist that ignores dissension and avoids debate.

Apparently the youtube comment area is now a reasonable, scholastic discussion board. I must have slipped into the Mirror Mirror universe.