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First, frame of reference:

I run a Daemon Prince with Daemonic Flight and one of the Empire guys at the LGS takes a big block of like 50 troopers + characters and puts little archers right in front of it to stop it from being charged.

Relevant BRB references:

P. 16: CAN I CHARGE? "Note that ifsuch obstruction is another unit, and there is a chance that the intervening unit will move out of hte chargers' way before the charge is completed, the charge is 'possible', and therefore can be declared..."

P. 18: CHARGING MORE THAN ONE UNIT "...if there is no way at all of completing the charge against an enemy unit without touching another (sometimes known as 'clipping') then the charging unit must also declare a charge against the other unit(s)."

P. 70: MOVING FLYERS "Units made up entirely of models that can fly can move or charge normally on the ground, using their Movement value, or instead choose to fly. A uinit that flies can move over other units and terrain as it does so, treating the entire move as taking place over open ground. It may not finish the move on top of another unit or in impassable terrain. Depending on the flying model's height and/or position, it will sometimes be able to draw a line of sight over intervening units to a more distant target and make a flying charge over the intervening unit."

Here's what I want to know: what happens if I want to declare a charge against the big unit behind the archers? When I declare the charge against the big unit, I have a chance to make that since the big unit could Flee! and I could roll a big charge range and catch them on the other side of the archers. But, if they hold, then I would land on top of the archers, which I'm not allowed to do. Assuming the big block holds, and I roll sufficient range to make it to them, what happens? Does the charge fail? Do I then have to declare a charge against the archers? Or would I have had to declare a charge against the archers to begin with?

Another related question:

If I double declare the charge (flying or on the ground), what happens in this situation: The archers fail their terror test and the big unit holds. The archers flee through the big unit, which should immediately cause a panic test (Pg. 62-3) since they're not yet in close combat, and then the big unit fails that test. Do they then flee and hope to get away from my charge just the same?

You can only declare a charge you can make. Unless you have room to fit your base between the big unit and the archers somewhere you can't declare it.


But, you could declare at the archers first, hope they flee, and then redirect into the big unit behind.

So then to charge the big unit I would have to declare the charge on the ground using my normal M8?

That's my confusion. It says I can't declare a charge I can't make due to obstacles, but that if the obstacle is a unit that could possibly be moved out of the way, I can still declare the charge (in this case, it could fail a Terror test). The requirements for declaring against intervening units as well as your intended unit is that there is no way at all to complete the them. Does it count as "no way at all" if it can't work unless they flee?

If the charge, through some possibility, could be completed. IE: you also declare a charge with another unit against the archers and they may possibly flee, then yes the charge would be legal to declare.

If I were declaring my charge against both the big unit and the archers, the archers could flee and I could get in there.

My question is about the CHARGING MORE THAN ONE UNIT part of the rules:

"...if there is no way at all of completing the charge against an enemy unit without touching another (sometimes known as 'clipping') then the charging unit must also declare a charge against the other unit(s)."

By "completing the charge" is it talking about them holding and me getting in? If that's the case I should be able to declare the charge against the archers too since they'd be in the way. My confusion here is that if the big unit fled, I've got a good chance on rolling high enough to catch them, in which case I'd be able to simply fly past the archers and cut them down. Would that count as a way of completing the charge? When does that charge have to get declared, because I was under the impression that landing on top of them would be touching them.

The only way to change more then one unit is that there was no way to change only one.

Example, You have a Horde of bloodletters and you charge a unit of 20 swordmasters. When then find out that there is no way to complete the charge without also touching 20 white lions. Then you declare the extra charge against the white lions.. This is of course only if the swordmasters would not be able to close the door on your bloodletters.



As Grey Templar said, you can declare a charge with your DP against the troopers if there was a possibility during that charge phase that the archers was going to no longer be there. You would need another unit that would declare a charge against the archers to make them flee. But if they don't flee, the DP's charge would be a failed charge.

Only if your base fits inbetween units can you charge them in the front, although you should be able to butcher through that unit and overrun, but thats another matter

Okay, so I can't do it flying. I should still be able to declare it on the ground (which you have the option of doing).

The charge move doesn't pass over things, so the charge would hit the archers no matter what, so they would also get the charge declared against them.

The archers would have a chance to not be there since they would have to be taking the Terror test as well.

My second question:

If the archers fail yet the big block passes for terror tests, but then while resolving the Flee! reaction, the archers would cause a panic test for the big block since it isn't in close combat yet and the big block fails that, would they then flee and need to be caught just the same? What happens if they then fled through the archers? Do they chain flee over each other?

You would resolved the Archer's flee first, moving them as needed, bouncing through the big unit. Then you would take the panic test, if failed, they would flee as normal. Bouncing through the archers. The archers wouldn't take another test as they are already fleeing.

You could still "fly charge" at the archers, giving yourself an extra movement boost to increase your chances of reaching them.

Right, but if the archers flee through the big unit, I can't land on the big unit. The point is for the big unit to get charged.

Would you not Ld test to redirect the charge onto the new target at this point?

(And then likely face min +6 Combat Res as the unit champion takes the fall)

+6? 3 ranks, BSB and standard bearer is all I can work out, where is the 6th coming from?

In the example you give you would not be able to declare a charge on the big unit.

Firstly as stated above if there is not enough room to place the DP between the two units you may not use your fly move to pass over the archers and directly charge the big block.

Secondly, with the P16 reference (chance of a unit moving out of the way) you give I believe it is intended for circumstances where you are blocked from charging by one of your own units that has itself declared a charge and will therefore be moving before you move the other unit. EG if your opponent in your example above wanted to charge the block of infantry at an enemy unit then, although its path would be blocked by the archers at the time of declaring, the archers too could declare a charge that would take them out of the way of the block before they make their own charge move. Possibly another circumstance would be a fleeing unit in your path, I can't remember exactly what order declare charges/move charges/resolve fleeing units happens but your path may be blocked by an already-fleeing unit which will continue to flee out of your way before chargers are actually moved, but I'm not sure on that one, don't have the movement section of the rulebook handy! Anyway that's the RAI as I see it.

Thirdly, Although the terror check would create a circumstance where the archers may flee out of the way you would still have to declare a charge against them, and therefore not the big block, with the DP to cause the terror check. You may only 'double charge' units if there is NO WAY to only contact one with a charge. I expect situations where this is the case are actually very rare. Remember it is permissible for the unit receiving the charge to 'close the door' if terrain/other units prevent the charger from doing so.

Basically your only option in this situation is to charge the archers. If they fail their terror check you may test to redirect into the block. Otherwise you'll just have to butcher them this turn and overrun into the block. Your opponent is using a valid tactic and there is no simple way to negate it.

 Uzi Toting Monkeys wrote:
In the example you give you would not be able to declare a charge on the big unit.

Firstly as stated above if there is not enough room to place the DP between the two units you may not use your fly move to pass over the archers and directly charge the big block.

Secondly, with the P16 reference (chance of a unit moving out of the way) you give I believe it is intended for circumstances where you are blocked from charging by one of your own units that has itself declared a charge and will therefore be moving before you move the other unit. EG if your opponent in your example above wanted to charge the block of infantry at an enemy unit then, although its path would be blocked by the archers at the time of declaring, the archers too could declare a charge that would take them out of the way of the block before they make their own charge move. Possibly another circumstance would be a fleeing unit in your path, I can't remember exactly what order declare charges/move charges/resolve fleeing units happens but your path may be blocked by an already-fleeing unit which will continue to flee out of your way before chargers are actually moved, but I'm not sure on that one, don't have the movement section of the rulebook handy! Anyway that's the RAI as I see it.

Thirdly, Although the terror check would create a circumstance where the archers may flee out of the way you would still have to declare a charge against them, and therefore not the big block, with the DP to cause the terror check. You may only 'double charge' units if there is NO WAY to only contact one with a charge. I expect situations where this is the case are actually very rare. Remember it is permissible for the unit receiving the charge to 'close the door' if terrain/other units prevent the charger from doing so.

Basically your only option in this situation is to charge the archers. If they fail their terror check you may test to redirect into the block. Otherwise you'll just have to butcher them this turn and overrun into the block. Your opponent is using a valid tactic and there is no simple way to negate it.

RAW comes before RAI, and in this case there *would* be a chance that the archers would flee out of the way, so that makes it a legal declaration. Order for Charge subphase is to declare a charge, resolve the charge reaction, repeat until all charges have been declared and their reactions resolved, and then move chargers. If it were meant to only be your own units in the way that are declaring charges, they would have said that instead of leaving room for enemy units as well.

The rules for Charging More Than One Unit don't say you have to hit both simultaneously. It says if there's no way to complete the charge without running into the other unit. In this case, there is no way to hit that big block without running into the archers first.

 PinkSpaceHippy wrote:


The rules for Charging More Than One Unit don't say you have to hit both simultaneously. It says if there's no way to complete the charge without running into the other unit. In this case, there is no way to hit that big block without running into the archers first.

The Charging more then one unit only is in effect if you are able to complete (1st touch) your charge against the unit you declared a charge against and the close the door can not happen without closing on the other unit. And then it has to be in correct frontage. In your question you are hitting the rear of the archers units when you can only charge them from the front.


Read page 22, Unusual Situations. If you are unable to close the door because a unit is in the way its a failed charged.


In your question, you can declare a charge against the big unit with the archers in the away. If the Big unit fails the terror test, they start running, so you may be able to catch them. (Flying over the archers). If they pass the terror test and decide to stay, you need to get the archers out of the way. If they do not flee, then your charge against the big unit will fail.

If you don't have a unit that can charge and terror the archers out of the way, I would not recommend charging the Big unit in hopes they flee. I think charging the Archers to get them to flee and then testing for redirect to change the charge to the Big Unit.

As a Note, if the archers flee as for failed terror or declared flee and run though the Big Unit, they big unit will need to take a panic test. When you change to the Big Unit they do not take a Terror test since they already past a test during the phase. If they declare flee then move beyond the Archers, Unless you have the movement to flyover and touch the big unit (without touching the archers) it would be a failed charge.

Artee wrote:

 PinkSpaceHippy wrote:


The rules for Charging More Than One Unit don't say you have to hit both simultaneously. It says if there's no way to complete the charge without running into the other unit. In this case, there is no way to hit that big block without running into the archers first.

The Charging more then one unit only is in effect if you are able to complete (1st touch) your charge against the unit you declared a charge against and the close the door can not happen without closing on the other unit. And then it has to be in correct frontage. In your question you are hitting the rear of the archers units when you can only charge them from the front.


Read page 22, Unusual Situations. If you are unable to close the door because a unit is in the way its a failed charged.


In your question, you can declare a charge against the big unit with the archers in the away. If the Big unit fails the terror test, they start running, so you may be able to catch them. (Flying over the archers). If they pass the terror test and decide to stay, you need to get the archers out of the way. If they do not flee, then your charge against the big unit will fail.

If you don't have a unit that can charge and terror the archers out of the way, I would not recommend charging the Big unit in hopes they flee. I think charging the Archers to get them to flee and then testing for redirect to change the charge to the Big Unit.

As a Note, if the archers flee as for failed terror or declared flee and run though the Big Unit, they big unit will need to take a panic test. When you change to the Big Unit they do not take a Terror test since they already past a test during the phase. If they declare flee then move beyond the Archers, Unless you have the movement to flyover and touch the big unit (without touching the archers) it would be a failed charge.

If you can show me where on Pg. 18 it says that rule only applies when you're able to get to the intended target and hit the other target at the same time, I'll accept that. That's not in that section.

This isn't closing the door, so your Pg. 22 reference doesn't apply. This is about getting to them.

I've already given up the fly move, and we're talking about the ground move. I wouldn't be going to the archers' rear, it would be their front.

Charge the archers
Terror Check
If flee redirect test then charge large block
Terror Check
If not fleed roll charge distance engage archers, overrun into large block.

PinkSpaceHippy, Your ignoring the pages. Its all there.

No, Artee, I'm not.

Unusual Situations [BRB pg. 22]

Sometimes a charging unit can move into contact with its target, but cannot close the door because something else lies in the way, normally another unit or a piece of terrain. Where this happens, the charging player should attempt to complete the charge in such a manner as to avoid the obstruction. This can normally be achieved by increasing or decreasing the amount the charging unit wheels as it moves, or changing how the charging unit closes the door. In some cases the enemy unit might have to close the door with the chargers instead (see diagram), as they would do in reality.

If not amount of finagling can allow the unit to avoid the obstacle, the charge fails.

This is for when you can make it to the unit but there's something preventing you from closing the door. We're not talking about that here. You're trying to apply this to every situation, even though there are rules for the other situations.

Charging More Than One Unit [BRB pg. 16]

A unit can normally only declare a charge at a single enemy unit. However, if there is no way at all of completing the charge against an enemy unit without touching another (sometimes known as 'clipping') then the charging unit must also declare a charge against the other unit(s). Each target unit must declare and resolve its own charge reaction (in the order chosen by their controlling player). As normal, any units that do not declare charge reactions are assumed to hold.

Pg. 22 doesn't apply here. We're not talking about failure to close the door, we're talking about failure to get without running into the other unit. Let me give you a diagram.



The Daemon Prince can see over the archers to the big block. There's no way to complete that charge without hitting the archers (there's no corner he can make it to where closing the door becomes a thing). So, he would declare the charge also against the archers, creating the possibility for them to not be there if they fail the Terror test, providing the condition for declaring the charge against the further unit.

The rule you're citing is irrelevant.

You said above that you had abandoned using flight (although you shouldn't as it both increases your chance of completing the charge and may affect the charge reaction), so there is no way to declare a charge against a unit with another unit in front of it. I guess you need to just charge the archers and break them quick. Or hope that your opponent leaves an inch to big a gap...

Niteware, I'm abandoning flight because the only way to get to them using it is if they flee. If they hold then I fail the charge, period.

If you're going to make a definitive statement on how the Can I Charge? and Charging More Than One Unit work with Terror in this case, please provide some sort of logical basis.

The "charging more than one unit" theory you are pushing for can be negated by one fact, that if you were to charge the large block, and then by effect have to engage the archers, what arc would they then be in? Admittedly at the start of the turn they would be in your front arc, but once you complete your intended charge, the archers (who you would then have to charge) would be in your rear arc, and you cannot charge something that is not in your front arc...

Also, remember that if your base cannot be placed (say the archers are 45mm from their parent unit, and the DP base is 50mm) then there is nothing you can do except charge the archers, as you have no ability to move the archers to allow you to fit, as the only move you can do is closing the door, which that isnt...

 PinkSpaceHippy wrote:
Niteware, I'm abandoning flight because the only way to get to them using it is if they flee. If they hold then I fail the charge, period.

If you're going to make a definitive statement on how the Can I Charge? and Charging More Than One Unit work with Terror in this case, please provide some sort of logical basis.

To clarify, I meant that you should always be using flight to charge rather than your standard movement, unless I am missing something. I think that you are unable to charge the large block in any way, assuming the diagram reasonably describes the situation. You should therefore be charging the archers, but still using flight.

I've reread the flight rules and don't see any way that this is incorrect or illogical, so I assume that me original post was unclear.

 japehlio wrote:
The "charging more than one unit" theory you are pushing for can be negated by one fact, that if you were to charge the large block, and then by effect have to engage the archers, what arc would they then be in? Admittedly at the start of the turn they would be in your front arc, but once you complete your intended charge, the archers (who you would then have to charge) would be in your rear arc, and you cannot charge something that is not in your front arc...

Also, remember that if your base cannot be placed (say the archers are 45mm from their parent unit, and the DP base is 50mm) then there is nothing you can do except charge the archers, as you have no ability to move the archers to allow you to fit, as the only move you can do is closing the door, which that isnt...

I'm not using the flying charge here; I'm using the ground charge. In process of that move, I would hit the archers head on. Also, there are many occasions where upon initial contact (before closing the door), the charged unit can be in your side (or even rear) arc. I don't see how that negates this.

Also, Niteware, I'm not using Fly for the charge because if the big unit holds I would fail the charge since I'm not allowed to land on top of the archers.

What Niteware is saying about using Fly vs the Archers is that you have 2 more inches of movement. The DP charge range on the ground is 20" while fight charge is 22". Say If the archers was 12" away. If you charged on the ground, if you rolled a 3 or less it would fail. If you fly charge you would not fail the charge at the archers.

Except that the only way you can get to the big unit is if the archers have fled, ergo, you charge the archers using fly. If they do not flee, you have charged them, if they do flee you can redirect and charge the big unit.

I think Japehlio was suggesting that as you are starting with the archers front in your front arc, it may not be possible to charge them in the rear, which you would do if you slotted neatly between the two units.

Looking at the rules for charging, it seems that the only difference (when charging the archers) is that you get an extra 2 inches movement from flight. Charging the big unit doesn't even come in to the question until the archers have fled, unless there is space to land between.

Do you think there is something I'm missing about flying charges that would lead you to prefer a ground based charge?

Removed for quote correction.

Sorry,, I corrected it just before you quoted.. I was incorrect, flyers have swiftstride both flying or on the ground. (BRB pg 70, FLY, 1st para.

The only monsters that have swiftstride is flying monsters or those that have the rule in there army list. (like OnG Arachnarok)

The other point which could be relevant is about charge reactions - counting your move as 10" you are less likely to get shot at (ofc, depending on the type or archers), which might make the difference between the DP wiping out 1 - 2 units or dying (due to the number of shots that could be aimed at you vs the number of cc attacks).