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Okay, so since they have Swiftstride on the ground as well, this is still worth getting to the bottom of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:
The other point which could be relevant is about charge reactions - counting your move as 10" you are less likely to get shot at (ofc, depending on the type or archers), which might make the difference between the DP wiping out 1 - 2 units or dying (due to the number of shots that could be aimed at you vs the number of cc attacks).

On a stand and shoot, his archers will be needing 5's to hit and 6's to wound, and for me to fail my 1+ save and subsequent 5+ ward save. Each archer has a 0.62% chance to cause a wound. Wanna do the probability for at least four out of the five archers to cause a wound? Because that's the odds you'd have to stop him on the stand and shoot.

btw, my point wasnt so much about the being in the archers rear arc, it was morethat they would then be in yours. for you to declare your perfectly declarable charge against the parent unit, being a flying monster, and move in, you would contact the archers behind you, and have to declare a chqrge againat them, but you cant, because they are in your rear arc.
(last paragraph, declaring charges, pg 16 lrb)
(last paragraph. unusual situations, pg 22 lrb)

Japehlio, I know what you're saying. You're still off the mark.

#1: Using Fly for the charge has been off the table for quite a while now.

#2: You don't wait to declare your charge until you've started moving; you declare first. The declaration is made. The archers would get declared before you make the move at all, while they're still in the front arc.

#3: The last part of unusual situations isn't in play here, Charging More Than One Unit (pg. 18) is.

that all beig said, what are the chances you will kill all the archers btw, there were what, 10? and its 3s and 2s? even with thunderstomp etc, as long as one is left, he'll be steadfast...
(assuming they are a detachment, and not a seperate archer unit)

Im still not sold on the 'declaring charge on archers', but then engagng them with your backside is all...

 japehlio wrote:
that all beig said, what are the chances you will kill all the archers btw, there were what, 10? and its 3s and 2s? even with thunderstomp etc, as long as one is left, he'll be steadfast...
(assuming they are a detachment, and not a seperate archer unit)

Im still not sold on the 'declaring charge on archers', but then engagng them with your backside is all...

It's not "engaging them with your backside". I've already said now several times that he would be going HEAD FIRST into the archers...

Five archers, and yes 3's and 2's.

He needs all five for steadfast. Steadfast requires you to have more ranks than the opponent. It takes five to make a rank.

 PinkSpaceHippy wrote:

 japehlio wrote:
that all beig said, what are the chances you will kill all the archers btw, there were what, 10? and its 3s and 2s? even with thunderstomp etc, as long as one is left, he'll be steadfast...
(assuming they are a detachment, and not a seperate archer unit)

Im still not sold on the 'declaring charge on archers', but then engagng them with your backside is all...

It's not "engaging them with your backside". I've already said now several times that he would be going HEAD FIRST into the archers...

Five archers, and yes 3's and 2's.

He needs all five for steadfast. Steadfast requires you to have more ranks than the opponent. It takes five to make a rank.

Detachments can use their parent unit to determine if they are Steadfast.

Stupid empire cheating rules. Not like my Daemon Prince wouldn't slaughter five archers in a heartbeat, though.

the daemon prince can declare the charge at the big unit. there is still a chance the small unit will flee from another charger and be out of the way, which makes it a possibility.

heckler wrote:
the daemon prince can declare the charge at the big unit. there is still a chance the small unit will flee from another charger and be out of the way, which makes it a possibility.

I'm not looking for fleeing from another unit. I'm looking for the Charging More Than One Unit rule.

@PinkSpaceHippy:

The Daemon Prince can see over the archers to the big block. There's no way to complete that charge without hitting the archers (there's no corner he can make it to where closing the door becomes a thing). So, he would declare the charge also against the archers, creating the possibility for them to not be there if they fail the Terror test, providing the condition for declaring the charge against the further unit.

Firstly whether the archers flee or not there is no way of you contacting both units, let alone being FORCED to contact both, with your charge move. If the archers budge just a little (from fleeing or whatever) then you can corner-to-corner charge the block without hitting the archers and therefore don't charge both of them. You don't work out whether you have to do a multi-charge until the 'move chargers' sub-phase.

What you are trying to do is use two rules simultaneously. You are using the 'the unit has a chance to move out of the way' rule to allow you to declare a charge against the block but then also the 'multi-charge' rule to allow you to charge both. Am I correct?

These rules come into effect in separate sub-phases, not at the same time. To create the circumstance where the archers may flee (and so enact the 'the unit may move out of my way' rule) you must declare a charge against them, you cannot declare a multi-charge in the 'declare charges' sub-phase.

My point is that in your proposal none of these rules are followed to their conclusion. To start this whole thing off you have to declare a charge against ONE unit:

Scenario A) If you declare a charge against the archers then you continue resolving reactions and terror. If they flee for whatever reason you may redirect into the block
Scenario B) If your initial charge is against the block you wait and see what has happened to the archers when you come to move the DP. If the archers are still there preventing him contacting the block then his charge fails. If the archers have moved for whatever reason and the DP can now contact the block but MUST also make contact with another unit to do so then you charge both (although, as I just said, in this particular situation this is not possible, it would take some intervening terrain and likely a model/unit with a footprint bigger than 50mm to make that happen).

This is all determined by the structure of the sub-phases.

I realize the wording of the 'charging more than one unit' rule makes this a bit muddy when it uses the phrase '...must also then DECLARE A CHARGE against the second unit...(*paraphrase)' but the fact remains that that is a situation which does not come up until the 'move chargers' sub-phase, not the 'declare charges' sub-phase which is when the 'unit may move out of my way' can be used to determine who you can declare a charge against. What you are trying to do is mash the sub-phases together and apply several rules regarding both declaring and resolving charges all at the same time.

Thank you for a proper answer to the question.