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Does a DA player gain benefits from preferred enemy if his CSM opponent is in a bastion?

No. a Bastion, even when Chaos marines are embarked into it, is effectively a neutral unit, as it is not from the Chaos Space Marines codex.

This brings up a question, what about something with preferred enemy - everything? does PE still work on neutral units?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
This brings up a question, what about something with preferred enemy - everything? does PE still work on neutral units?

A building is Terrain, and not a unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
This brings up a question, what about something with preferred enemy - everything? does PE still work on neutral units?

A building is Terrain, and not a unit.

^^^^ This ^^^^

android325 wrote:
Does a DA player gain benefits from preferred enemy if his CSM opponent is in a bastion?

It depends on the disposition of the forces.


If the CSM unit is *inside* the bastion then the DA player can only attack the bastion itself (pg 93).

If the CSM unit is *inside* and the DA player is *shooting* (pg 93) then you get PE for your TO HIT rolls only. PE doesn't cover Armour Pen rolls.
If the CSM unit is *inside* and the DA player is *assaulting*, then PE doesn't apply as you automatically hit and, again, PE doesn't cover Armour Pen rolls.

If the CSM unit is *on top of* the battlements and the DA player is *shooting* (pg 95), then yes you would get preferred enemy for your shots as the battlements are simply providing a cover save.

If the CSM unit is *on top of* the battlements and the DA player is *inside* the bastion (pg 92/96), then the DA player can assault the CSM unit and therefore gets Preferred Enemy.

Preferred Enemy does not actually say when you are attacking a unit of the specified type just when attacking its preferred enemy.

Edit: So units with PE everything like Destroyers do get the rerolls against buildings and anything else they can attack.

 Gravmyr wrote:
Preferred Enemy does not actually say when you are attacking a unit of the specified type just when attacking its preferred enemy.

Edit: So units with PE everything like Destroyers do get the rerolls against buildings and anything else they can attack.

Interesting, I just looked further into this.

PE gives you reroll to hits and to wounds. When *shooting* a building, you are right that you can reroll the to hit. When *assaulting* however, PE can't apply. Hits succeed automatically and you aren't rolling to wound, you're rolling armour pen which isn't covered by PE. I'm updating my previous post.

 Gravmyr wrote:
Preferred Enemy does not actually say when you are attacking a unit of the specified type just when attacking its preferred enemy.

Edit: So units with PE everything like Destroyers do get the rerolls against buildings and anything else they can attack.

No units with PE everything like Destroyers do not get re-rolls against buildings as buildings are never an enemy. They are terrain.

a Quad Gun is Battlefield Debris (Also Terrain) so you would not get preferred enemy against that either.

The PE rules state "This rule is often presented as Preferred Enemy (X) where X identifies a specific type of foe.If the special rule does not specify a type of foe, then everyone is a Preferred Enemy of the unit." P. 40

Buildings are not a type of foe, they are terrain.

I would agree if it said everyone but using the term everything means they oppose well everything. I can be the foe of a cause or way of thinking same as being the enemy of those. The lack of a qualifier in the PE wording is not the fault of players. All they had to include was unit. I can assume they are idiots and therefor have to fix all rules they didn't write correctly or I can play the game as it was written.

One side can be the foe of another without enmity passing back in return. Does a whaling vessel hate the eco-terrorist? Yet they clearly hate the whaling vessels.

Edit: In the end this is a different topic so I digress.

 Gravmyr wrote:
I would agree if it said everyone but using the term everything means they oppose well everything. I can be the foe of a cause or way of thinking same as being the enemy of those. The lack of a qualifier in the PE wording is not the fault of players. All they had to include was unit. I can assume they are idiots and therefor have to fix all rules they didn't write correctly or I can play the game as it was written.

One side can be the foe of another without enmity passing back in return. Does a whaling vessel hate the eco-terrorist? Yet they clearly hate the whaling vessels.

Edit: In the end this is a different topic so I digress.

The rule does say "everyone" not everything

Sorry wasn't clear, for the Destroyer it says everything.

 Gravmyr wrote:
Sorry wasn't clear, for the Destroyer it says everything.

Gotcha. yeah, it actually punctuates it too. (Everything!)

I am inclined to say it gets re-rolls against Everything!

40k-noob wrote:

 Gravmyr wrote:
Sorry wasn't clear, for the Destroyer it says everything.

Gotcha. yeah, it actually punctuates it too. (Everything!)

I am inclined to say it gets re-rolls against Everything!

Except terrain is not an enemy.

PE only gives you re-rolls against the enemy.

40k-noob wrote:

 Gravmyr wrote:
Sorry wasn't clear, for the Destroyer it says everything.

Gotcha. yeah, it actually punctuates it too. (Everything!)

I am inclined to say it gets re-rolls against Everything!

Everything! as something differenent from everything. "Everything!" must be a new special character or something

PE gives rerolls against foes and as I posted above you can be both a foe and enemy of things or even ideas.

 Gravmyr wrote:
PE gives rerolls against foes and as I posted above you can be both a foe and enemy of things or even ideas.

Not in the context of 40K you can not.

40k Does not define either foe nor enemy to my knowledge. Can you give me a quote and page reference?

 Gravmyr wrote:
40k Does not define either foe nor enemy to my knowledge. Can you give me a quote and page reference?

In the Context of PE a foe is any models from that particular codex. Some models have PE (Orks) they get to use PE against any models from the Ork Codex.

Page 46 "If an Artillery unit is forced to Fall Back from close combat and the enemy is free to make a Sweeping Advance,"

Page 52 same section "Instead ,if a Template weapons fires overwatch... on the charging unit,... If the charge failed, we can assume that the enemy ran into range..."

Page 63 "If, when it is a character's turn to make a Pile In move, other friendly models are piling in at the same time, the character must move as soon as it is able, to get into base contact with an enemy."

Page 64 "can't challenge a specific enemy, he just issues a challenge to the foe at large and sees who steps forwards."

Enemy = unit in the BRB on P. 52 Enemy = model on P 63 and 64 and Enemy is defined as a unit on P. 46, as only units can make a SA


If what you are saying is true, then Buildings can use Deny the Witch "If the Psychic test was passed and the target was an enemy, it now gets a chance to Deny the Witch and nullify the power." P.67

Which is of course not true as they define enemy for deny the witch as a unit. "If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit..." P. 68

They also use enemy to denote opponent. Smoke launcher rules said: "After the enemy's Shooting phase, the smoke disperses with no further effect." P. 87

Page 92 tells us that "Units can also charge an enemy that is occupying an adjacent building"


In the context of the rules enemy is not a building, as enemy refers to units, models and opponents.

The answer to my question is then no. They imply but also use unit, model, or opponent in many cases further implying that model, unit or opponent are some definitions. There is no actual limit set by any of those examples as to what is or is not considered a foe. The wording of PE only uses the term foe not enemy so let's leave that out on further study.

There are two other PE examples, SW version and the Necron Version. The SW version does not indicate a codex but a selection of unit types. The Necron version states Everything! which does not actually indicate people or persons exclusively but all things. I'd agree it only works on units if it said Everyone! but it doesn't. They actually do not define what is or is not considered a foe and as such we have to use the general definition which includes anything you have enmity toward.

The context for wounding tells me that you roll to wound to see if you wounded a foe indicating that anything you wound, such as battlefield debris, is considered a foe. Beam weapon hit all friends and foes and talks about hitting buildings.

What about Old Adversary, which just straight up gives you Preferred Enemy with no restrictions?

Death Reaper: you are forgetting one rule:

pg 93: "Units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle."

For all intents and purposes the building is considered to be a vehicle, and therefore a unit, when it is occupied. Therefore PE applies on the To Hit roll. Due to the wording, it doesn't apply to the pen roll. Also because CC auto hits, it means the only time you can actually get a reroll is when shooting it.

So, in the context of the rules, the building is sometimes an enemy unit. When that section is occupied it is essentially considered to be a vehicle and can be attacked. The only types of attacks allowed are shooting and assaulting. So, if unit wanted to use a witchfire attack against an occupied building then the building would get a deny the witch roll. Now, if the building is also a fortification, then the FAQ's state that Fortifications (specific) can't use Deny the Witch, which they are likely to FAQ. Also, if the building is unoccupied then it is considered terrain and not able to be the target of anything.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
What about Old Adversary, which just straight up gives you Preferred Enemy with no restrictions?

If there is no specific target for preferred enemy then it is it is preferred enemy (everyone)...its in the rule book under the preferred enemy entry...but i dont have my book on me right now.

clively wrote:
Death Reaper: you are forgetting one rule:

pg 93: "Units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle."

1) not forgetting that rule

2) that still does not mean the piece of terrain is an enemy.

For all intents and purposes the building is considered to be a vehicle, and therefore a unit, when it is occupied.

This is not correct at all. The building is still only terrain, but you shoot and assault it in the same way as a vehicle.

Also a building is never a unit, as all units have a unit type.

"A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right." P.3

a unit is a model.

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" P.3

Models have a unit type. Buildings do not have a unit type and therefore are not units.

Can you assault or shoot terrain? No. We all agree here.

The only thing that allows you to take those actions is because the building is declared as a vehicle when occupied.

So whatever else it may or may not be classified as no longer matters when the building is occupied. Because at that point it is to be treated as a vehicle when being shot or assaulted.

Does PE work against a vehicle? Yes, so it applies.

.

clively wrote:
Can you assault or shoot terrain? No. We all agree here.

Actually yes you can, you can assault or shoot a Gun Emplacement, and that is Battlefield Debris (Terrain).

The only thing that allows you to take those actions is because the building is declared as a vehicle when occupied.

So whatever else it may or may not be classified as no longer matters when the building is occupied. Because at that point it is to be treated as a vehicle when being shot or assaulted.

Does PE work against a vehicle? Yes, so it applies.

It does not apply, as PE only works on the Enemy.

An occupied building is not a enemy building. it is still neutral terrain that anyone can enter when empty.

DeathReaper wrote:

clively wrote:
Can you assault or shoot terrain? No. We all agree here.

Actually yes you can, you can assault or shoot a Gun Emplacement, and that is Battlefield Debris (Terrain).

The only thing that allows you to take those actions is because the building is declared as a vehicle when occupied.

So whatever else it may or may not be classified as no longer matters when the building is occupied. Because at that point it is to be treated as a vehicle when being shot or assaulted.

Does PE work against a vehicle? Yes, so it applies.

It does not apply, as PE only works on the Enemy.

An occupied building is not a enemy building. it is still neutral terrain that anyone can enter when empty.

Doesn't have to be an enemy. It just has to be a thing. In this case, a counts-as vehicle.

 azazel the cat wrote:
Doesn't have to be an enemy. It just has to be a thing. In this case, a counts-as vehicle.

Incorrect, The PE rule specifically mentions foe.

If it does not specify a type of foe then everyone is a preferred enemy

A building is neither a for nor an everyone.

It is terrain.

DeathReaper wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Doesn't have to be an enemy. It just has to be a thing. In this case, a counts-as vehicle.

Incorrect, The PE rule specifically mentions foe.

If it does not specify a type of foe then everyone is a preferred enemy

A building is neither a for nor an everyone.

It is terrain.

Except when it counts as a vehicle.

 azazel the cat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Doesn't have to be an enemy. It just has to be a thing. In this case, a counts-as vehicle.

Incorrect, The PE rule specifically mentions foe.

If it does not specify a type of foe then everyone is a preferred enemy

A building is neither a for nor an everyone.

It is terrain.

Except when it counts as a vehicle.

It never counts as a vehicle,, Unless you have a rules quote that says it counts as a vehicle.

All I see is "Units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle." P. 93

Even if it did count as a vehicle, it would still not be an enemy, or a foe.