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Cost
Helldrake: 170 points
Riptides with Ion: 185 points
Winner: Helldrake, but 15 point difference is tiny

Slot
Helldrake: Best Fast Attack option in the Codex, limited to Fast Attack
Riptide: Competes with Crisis suits, but Crisis suits can be taken as a HQ choice.
Winner: Riptide

Offence:
Helldrake: Str 7 Ap 3 D3+1 hits, Str 6 ap 3 ignores cover torrent flamer, 2/3 chance of Turn 2 arrival, may be delayed.
Riptide: 72" Str 8/9 Ap 2 Heavy 3/Large Blast/Ordnance template and 30" Str 5 ap 5 Assault 4/24" Str 6 Ap 2. Small chance of not shooting. Shoots from turn 1.
Winner: Riptide- Kills horde, MEQ, TEQ, Vehicles, Monstrous Creatures. Helldrake: Kills MEQ and Light Vehicles.

Defence.
Helldrake: Av 12/12/10, 5++, 3HP Flyer
Riptides: T6 W5 2+ 5++ (3++)
Winner: Riptide - cannot be Weapon Destroyed, Exploded, Intercepted, and shoots from turn one till it collapses.

Assault:
Helldrake: N/A, Cannot be assaulted.
Riptide: WS2 Str6 I2 A3 LD9 Ap 2. Not fantastic in combat but can assault as a last resort. Can be tarpitted, but with pie plate and large blast templates, something has gone terribly wrong.
Winner: Riptide.

Mobility
Helldrake: 18-36", Flyer movement or Hover movement.
Riptide: 6", D6 Run, 2/4D6 JSJ.
Winner: Tie. Helldrake Flyer movement means it will not be able to shoot at some things all the time, but is able to reach hard to get to units. Riptide can JSJ, but uses its nova charge to do so.

Utility:
Helldrake: Cannot contest or claim Linebreaker.
Riptide: Can contest and claim Linebreaker.
Winner: Riptide.

Using the Helldrake as the standard for competitiveness (or as everyone imagines it to be) for 15 points more, the Riptide is better in every way. 3x Riptide is an extremely nasty build. Tau may just become competitive on this basis alone, since they have access to options which make Flyer spam lists/ FMC lists / Helldrakes a liability. The only thing they aren't extremely effective against is MC spam, and even then I'd wager they outshoot the opposing MCs.

Can anyone point out weaknesses I may have missed? BS3 is a thing, but how crippling is it?

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Assault:
Helldrake: N/A, Should not be assaulted.
Riptide: WS2 Str6 I2 A3 LD9 Ap 2. Not fantastic in combat but can assault as a last resort. Can be tarpitted, but with pie plate and large blast templates, something has gone terribly wrong.
Winner: Riptide.

FTFY in orange.

I dont think defence is anyway near in the riptides favour, you have to snapfire to hit the helldrake, and 5++ on top is pretty good.

With lots of -1 T stuff around (enfeeble and rad grenades, rad grenade lauchers) making that bad body T5 and all of a sudden, who care how many wounds it has, also it can be hit at normal BS and can be shot back T1, I dont see it surviving very long, especially if you dont get the 3++ shield up.

I just played a game using 3 riptides. There good but heldrakes definitely are better.

Defence.
Helldrake: Av 12/12/10, 5++, 3HP Flyer
Riptides: T6 W5 2+ 5++ (3++)
Winner: Riptide - cannot be Weapon Destroyed, Exploded, Intercepted, and shoots from turn one till it collapses.

Assault:
Helldrake: N/A, Cannot be assaulted.
Riptide: WS2 Str6 I2 A3 LD9 Ap 2. Not fantastic in combat but can assault as a last resort. Can be tarpitted, but with pie plate and large blast templates, something has gone terribly wrong.
Winner: Riptide.

Mobility
Helldrake: 18-36", Flyer movement or Hover movement.
Riptide: 6", D6 Run, 2/4D6 JSJ.
Winner: Tie. Helldrake Flyer movement means it will not be able to shoot at some things all the time, but is able to reach hard to get to units. Riptide can JSJ, but uses its nova charge to do so.

All three of these points are clearly in favor of a helldrake. The entire discussion is kind of silly though as the only thing they share is that they are arguably the best units in their respective codex.

You forgot poison weapons completely when talking about survivability. Not to even mention the entire skyfire issue which means that the most spammable lascannons require ~6 shots to hit for the hellturkey where it will hit the riptide at least 3 times as often.

Neither want to be in assault and the hellturkey is unassailable while zooming about. The only time this is an advantage to the riptide is when a low rear AV vehicle wanders near it.

You forget 360 arc for the hellturkey torrent flamer. That thing almost never has problems firing. The only problem is experience thinking ahead to where you want to be.

Both are great units though that pack a huge punch. I like the riptide more though as the riptide model is just so much better looking than the dinobot hellturkey model.

You can't poison a drake

Drake wins

I believe that the hell drake is physically stronger but the riptide is tactically stronger. With a 72'' gun and jsj you can easily play keep away from most threats. freedom of mobility and freedom of fire means that you can trick your opponent into making bad plays. The hell drake is much more straight forward as it flies over where it can do the most damage and that is about it.

Saw this mentioned elsewhere, although I don't have a copy of the new codex to check it....

"Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards"
Is it true that if the Riptide loses a drone, it's forced to take a morale test due to 25% casualties?

FA slots can contest objectives yes?

turn drake to Hover mode....

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Offence:
Helldrake: Str 7 Ap 3 D3+1 hits, Str 6 ap 3 ignores cover torrent flamer, 2/3 chance of Turn 2 arrival, may be delayed.
Riptide: 72" Str 8/9 Ap 2 Heavy 3/Large Blast/Ordnance template and 30" Str 5 ap 5 Assault 4/24" Str 6 Ap 2. Small chance of not shooting. Shoots from turn 1.
Winner: Riptide- Kills horde, MEQ, TEQ, Vehicles, Monstrous Creatures. Helldrake: Kills MEQ and Light Vehicles.

It's the first I've seen the Riptide stats, and whilst nice, I'd still think the Helldrake is at least as good, if not better. St 6, AP3, ignores cover and a template you can place exactly was pretty game changing in a way I'm not seeing with the Riptide (although that might change once I've played against one).




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 ausYenLoWang wrote:
FA slots can contest objectives yes?

turn drake to Hover mode....

Only in The Souring mission - otherswise it's a vehicle and can't contest regarless of hovering or zooming I'm afraid.

Dundas wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Offence:
Helldrake: Str 7 Ap 3 D3+1 hits, Str 6 ap 3 ignores cover torrent flamer, 2/3 chance of Turn 2 arrival, may be delayed.
Riptide: 72" Str 8/9 Ap 2 Heavy 3/Large Blast/Ordnance template and 30" Str 5 ap 5 Assault 4/24" Str 6 Ap 2. Small chance of not shooting. Shoots from turn 1.
Winner: Riptide- Kills horde, MEQ, TEQ, Vehicles, Monstrous Creatures. Helldrake: Kills MEQ and Light Vehicles.

It's the first I've seen the Riptide stats, and whilst nice, I'd still think the Helldrake is at least as good, if not better. St 6, AP3, ignores cover and a template you can place exactly was pretty game changing in a way I'm not seeing with the Riptide (although that might change once I've played against one).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
FA slots can contest objectives yes?

turn drake to Hover mode....

Only in The Souring mission - otherswise it's a vehicle and can't contest regarless of hovering or zooming I'm afraid.

Very true - i stand corrected...

This analysis is flawed. If the Helldrake cannot be assaulted, then it wins the 'assault' round. If the Helldrake is the 'best option in Fast Attack', while the Riptide competes with Crisis Suits, then the Helldrake wins that also.

I'd agree with the poster above that the comparison is a touch pointless as well. It isn't as though you can easily take both in the same army - barring Allies, but that is quite a complex comparison to then be running, determined by the purpose of the wider list.

This discussion has alot of flaws. Most people wont run a riptide for 180pts, it will most likely be more like 200-240. To run at 180pts would be leaving off a lot of attractive wargear such as FNP, SKyfire/Intercept, Shield missile drones and more. Comparable to running a DK without a Greatsword or Personal Teleporter.
If anything on a points scale, model type (MC) and for its stats i would compare it to a Dread Knight. Very different roles but similar in many aspects (fire magnets, biggest MC's in their respective codex, both used a MC/TEQ killers.) But thats just my opinion.

Also the ignore cover save comparison is limited. Tau have a pretty reliable way of striping cover saves, in which case the Riptides large blast can do damage on par with the heldrakes flamer.

 Ascalam wrote:
You can't poison a drake

Drake wins

I totally had a mental image of Marbo sneaking up on a giant robot (Riptide) and killing it with his knife...

 xttz wrote:
Saw this mentioned elsewhere, although I don't have a copy of the new codex to check it....

"Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards"
Is it true that if the Riptide loses a drone, it's forced to take a morale test due to 25% casualties?

Yup, so the thing can potentially run off of your table edge.

Also, the Riptide can be Pinned, which is quite amusing.

Iranna.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
This analysis is flawed. If the Helldrake cannot be assaulted, then it wins the 'assault' round. If the Helldrake is the 'best option in Fast Attack', while the Riptide competes with Crisis Suits, then the Helldrake wins that also.

Well, if he goes into Hover Mode (which people will do to keep him on the board to make another Flamer attack instead of losing a turn of doing that), then he's a fast skimmer which can be assaulted. Not sure if he gets any extra rules for assault, but if he's just a regular fast skimmer he can't attack back.

Well, the look of the Riptide is actually growing on me whereas the Heldrake still looks terrible....

 Wilytank wrote:

 Charles Rampant wrote:
This analysis is flawed. If the Helldrake cannot be assaulted, then it wins the 'assault' round. If the Helldrake is the 'best option in Fast Attack', while the Riptide competes with Crisis Suits, then the Helldrake wins that also.

Well, if he goes into Hover Mode (which people will do to keep him on the board to make another Flamer attack instead of losing a turn of doing that), then he's a fast skimmer which can be assaulted. Not sure if he gets any extra rules for assault, but if he's just a regular fast skimmer he can't attack back.

It will be very rare that someone will drop the Heldrake into hover mode unless its close to the end game and it just needs one more flamer shot to kill something.

Well, I can't remove the Helldrake from play with JoTWW

Can we weigh in on appearance as a factor? I don't play Tau and want multiple Riptide models. I have a CSM army and have no interest in the Drakes. Riptide wins!!

tuiman wrote:I dont think defence is anyway near in the riptides favour, you have to snapfire to hit the helldrake, and 5++ on top is pretty good.

With lots of -1 T stuff around (enfeeble and rad grenades, rad grenade lauchers) making that bad body T5 and all of a sudden, who care how many wounds it has, also it can be hit at normal BS and can be shot back T1, I dont see it surviving very long, especially if you dont get the 3++ shield up.

This would be true but there is something in the game called 'Skyfire' and 'Interceptor', and you can take it on Lascannons/Quad Guns to shoot flyers with full BS. and with Tau Allied skyfire, which means the Helldrake can get one-shotted before it even does any damage- it's only an armour 12 flyer after all.

Rad Grenades are CC only, Rad Grenade Launchers are 12". T5 would be crippling if it didn't have a 2+ armour save.

Let me remind you the Riptide has a 72" range and a potential 4D6 jetpack move. It will always outrange you. Bolters are 24". When three 72" plasma pie plates are dropping on you every turn, you will not reach rapid fire range unless you pod in. If you pod in, you have one turn of shooting before you die.

Ozomoto wrote:I just played a game using 3 riptides. There good but heldrakes definitely are better.

Yes, anecdotal evidence is great isn't it? Foundation of modern science.

Defence.
Helldrake: Av 12/12/10, 5++, 3HP Flyer
Riptides: T6 W5 2+ 5++ (3++)
Winner: Riptide - cannot be Weapon Destroyed, Exploded, Intercepted, and shoots from turn one till it collapses.

Assault:
Helldrake: N/A, Cannot be assaulted.
Riptide: WS2 Str6 I2 A3 LD9 Ap 2. Not fantastic in combat but can assault as a last resort. Can be tarpitted, but with pie plate and large blast templates, something has gone terribly wrong.
Winner: Riptide.

Mobility
Helldrake: 18-36", Flyer movement or Hover movement.
Riptide: 6", D6 Run, 2/4D6 JSJ.
Winner: Tie. Helldrake Flyer movement means it will not be able to shoot at some things all the time, but is able to reach hard to get

All three of these points are clearly in favor of a helldrake. The entire discussion is kind of silly though as the only thing they share is that they are arguably the best units in their respective codex.

You forgot poison weapons completely when talking about survivability. Not to even mention the entire skyfire issue which means that the most spammable lascannons require ~6 shots to hit for the hellturkey where it will hit the riptide at least 3 times as often.

Neither want to be in assault and the hellturkey is unassailable while zooming about. The only time this is an advantage to the riptide is when a low rear AV vehicle wanders near it.

You forget 360 arc for the hellturkey torrent flamer. That thing almost never has problems firing. The only problem is experience thinking ahead to where you want to be.

Both are great units though that pack a huge punch. I like the riptide more though as the riptide model is just so much better looking than the dinobot hellturkey model.

The reason for this discussion is everyone is HELLDRAKE OMG OP CHANGING META. The comparison, thus, is necessary, because the Riptide is far, far deadlier since there are no easy solutions to killing it. Riptide wins in defence, because you cannot intercept or weapon destroy it, and it shoots from turn 1-5 without flying off the board etc.

See poison comparison below. Assault Riptide wins, because the Helldrake is a flyer and cannot assault things , the Riptide can if absolutely necessary charge to stop a DP rampaging through your lines or to tie up a single IC, or small units. Riptide is better. I am well aware of how a Helldrake shoots, and it has a 12" range. It will not be able to shoot certain things on the third turn or fourth unless you hover, because you can move away from the Helldrake.

Ascalam wrote:You can't poison a drake

Drake wins

Splinter Cannon: 36" Range. Does 0.05 wounds to a Riptide per shot. Ion Cannon: 72" Str 7 Ap 2 Heavy 3, or Str 8 Ap 2 Blast, or Str 9 Ap 2 Ordnance blast. Does 0.67 glances/pens and 0.87 wounds to Venoms/Dark Eldar underneath.

You need an excess of twenty shots to do a single wound to the Riptide. You need to do a hundred shots to kill it. It needs two shots to kill you. Nope, Dark Eldar. Anyone else has poison in large quantities? Didn't think so.

lambsandlions wrote:I believe that the hell drake is physically stronger but the riptide is tactically stronger. With a 72'' gun and jsj you can easily play keep away from most threats. freedom of mobility and freedom of fire means that you can trick your opponent into making bad plays. The hell drake is much more straight forward as it flies over where it can do the most damage and that is about it.

Seeing the Helldrake is Str 7 and the Riptide is Str 6, you are technically correct. I'm glad you also grasp the tactical differences which make the Riptide at least 3x better.

xttz wrote:Saw this mentioned elsewhere, although I don't have a copy of the new codex to check it....

"Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards"
Is it true that if the Riptide loses a drone, it's forced to take a morale test due to 25% casualties?

This is true, and another reason never to take shield drones on a Riptide.

Charles Rampant wrote:This analysis is flawed. If the Helldrake cannot be assaulted, then it wins the 'assault' round. If the Helldrake is the 'best option in Fast Attack', while the Riptide competes with Crisis Suits, then the Helldrake wins that also.

I'd agree with the poster above that the comparison is a touch pointless as well. It isn't as though you can easily take both in the same army - barring Allies, but that is quite a complex comparison to then be running, determined by the purpose of the wider list.

Addressed above. Not being able to assault at all is worse than being able to be assaulted, because it isn't exactly a slouch in CC for Tau, with its 3 Str 6 AP 2 attacks.

Messy0 wrote:This discussion has alot of flaws. Most people wont run a riptide for 180pts, it will most likely be more like 200-240. To run at 180pts would be leaving off a lot of attractive wargear such as FNP, SKyfire/Intercept, Shield missile drones and more. Comparable to running a DK without a Greatsword or Personal Teleporter.
If anything on a points scale, model type (MC) and for its stats i would compare it to a Dread Knight. Very different roles but similar in many aspects (fire magnets, biggest MC's in their respective codex, both used a MC/TEQ killers.) But thats just my opinion.

Also the ignore cover save comparison is limited. Tau have a pretty reliable way of striping cover saves, in which case the Riptides large blast can do damage on par with the heldrakes flamer.

There is absolutely no reason to take additional drones, or FNP when you can spend the points elsewhere, it's already unkillable just as it is. As a skyfire vechicle it is incredibly mediocre, you have Broadsides for that. 185 points is the absolute maximum you should spend because unlike a Dreadknight, it is optimised with just the Ion upgrade.

Noirsable wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
You can't poison a drake

Drake wins

I totally had a mental image of Marbo sneaking up on a giant robot (Riptide) and killing it with his knife...

Marbo could tie up one Riptide for two assault phases, tops? before he gets ID'd by an AP 2 blow.

Iranna wrote:

 xttz wrote:
Saw this mentioned elsewhere, although I don't have a copy of the new codex to check it....

"Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards"
Is it true that if the Riptide loses a drone, it's forced to take a morale test due to 25% casualties?

Yup, so the thing can potentially run off of your table edge.

Also, the Riptide can be Pinned, which is quite amusing.

Iranna.

So don't take drones. Not like it needs protection or additional firepower.

anonymou5 wrote:Well, I can't remove the Helldrake from play with JoTWW

Rune Priest: 24" Jaws of the World Wolf.
Riptide: 72" Str 8 Ap 2 (No runic armour for you) insta-death pie plate.

You're not going to get the shot off, unless you Pod in. If you fail Psychic, or he Denies, or Passes his Psychic test on a 50% chance, you kill one Riptide. And the other two pie plate you to death. Naked Rune Priest + Drop Pod = 135 points.

I can't see any easy options against the Riptide aside from Drop Pod Combi-Plasma Sternguard with a Null Zone libby (295 points) and you only get one shot at it and kill one Riptide.

to the above, you have to remember its 3x str6 ap2 attacks are at I 2.... so pretty much most chumps swing first...weight of hits is going to bring it down.... id compare it to a Hive Tyrant without a lashwhip... sure this shoots better, but a 72" gun wont help you if the board has a reasonable amount of terrain..... because lets be honest if this is un-killable... nids would be unstoppable

What chumps are going to make it into combat after three turns of triple pie plate shooting, pray tell?

rip tide is easy to kill....

well as easy as any other mostrous creature, IE dreadknight or nids or something....

high str low ap guns or force weapons FTW


every codex will have a helldrake/riptide/dreadknight/ect now I think,

tau are the (first perhaps of many?) balancer against the flyer heavy lists, now the meta will change because flyer spam actually has a rock to its scissors finally.

Easy there tough guy. Comparing stats is one thing. Getting it on the table in an actual game is completely different. People crapped on the heldrake til it hit the table. Lets calm down and see what it plays like before freaking out.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What chumps are going to make it into combat after three turns of triple pie plate shooting, pray tell?

if your running 3 of these puppies in a list you will have very happy opponents.... cos you will sink a lot of points into them.... and no pathfinders....

and just remember 30% chance to fail charging to fire those pie plates and the penalty is one of your 5 wounds.... no saves of any kind allowed.....

easysauce wrote:
rip tide is easy to kill....

well as easy as any other mostrous creature, IE dreadknight or nids or something....

high str low ap guns or force weapons FTW

Brb getting my plasma gun that can shoot around cover.

"No solution to T6 2+ MC" is hardly the analysis I'd give. There are plenty of weapons that can handle it. This is just a knee jerk reaction to the increasing prevalence of MC's in army's that traditionally didn't have it. Don't like it, change your meta, include more force weapons or some such in your list, or just tarpit it.

Besides, now that the Tau vehicles got worse, you're going to need a target for your anti-tank weapons. The Riptide's not a very easy unit to hide.

Also, if the guy is taking 3 riptides, that's 600-ish points that prevent him from taking decent quantities of crisis suits. And, if the riptide is overcharging his reactor every turn to keep up a 3++ save, he's going to kill himself, much less lose firepower.

This guys tough, not THAT tough. Poisoned gants, enfeebled and smash, or just ignore and Dakka all work. If I see one, I do the same as versus all tau. Kill the troops and bunker down while every non scoring unit rushes him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This guys tough, not THAT tough. Poisoned gants, enfeebled and smash, or just ignore and Dakka all work. If I see one, I do the same as versus all tau. Kill the troops and bunker down while every non scoring unit rushes him.

easysauce wrote:rip tide is easy to kill....

well as easy as any other mostrous creature, IE dreadknight or nids or something....

high str low ap guns or force weapons FTW


every codex will have a helldrake/riptide/dreadknight/ect now I think,

tau are the (first perhaps of many?) balancer against the flyer heavy lists, now the meta will change because flyer spam actually has a rock to its scissors finally.

Sure, walk your 24" plasma weapons at me as I shoot you from 72" away and jump backwards 2-4D6 every turn.
Yes, Deepstrike your terminators next to me so I can interceptor and drop a plasma pie plate on them.

How are your force weapons ever going to make it into combat, pray tell? How are you short-range hightstr AP2 weapons going to reach it?

if your running 3 of these puppies in a list you will have very happy opponents.... cos you will sink a lot of points into them.... and no pathfinders....

and just remember 30% chance to fail charging to fire those pie plates and the penalty is one of your 5 wounds.... no saves of any kind allowed.....

rip tide is easy to kill....

well as easy as any other mostrous creature, IE dreadknight or nids or something....

high str low ap guns or force weapons FTW

3 Riptides is 555 points exactly, 1/3 of your list at 1500 and 1/4 at 2000, which is exactly how many points Elites should take up.

Pathfinders are FA, you can take them regardless. You don't Nova charge the pie plate unless shooting at vehicles, you simply overcharge which is a 1/36 chance.
You don't Nova charge every turn either, only the turn when the enemy has covered enough distance to shoot at you. Nids don't get a 3++ invuln, and neither do Dreadknights. Neither can sit 72" away and shoot you. Lascannons have a range of 48", mind.

You think Monstrous Creatures are easy to kill because Dreadknights and TMCs have short ranged weapons which have to walk up to you to do dmg. The Riptide outranges your longest range weapon by 24".

Xyrael wrote:"No solution to T6 2+ MC" is hardly the analysis I'd give. There are plenty of weapons that can handle it. This is just a knee jerk reaction to the increasing prevalence of MC's in army's that traditionally didn't have it. Don't like it, change your meta, include more force weapons or some such in your list, or just tarpit it.

Besides, now that the Tau vehicles got worse, you're going to need a target for your anti-tank weapons. The Riptide's not a very easy unit to hide.

Also, if the guy is taking 3 riptides, that's 600-ish points that prevent him from taking decent quantities of crisis suits. And, if the riptide is overcharging his reactor every turn to keep up a 3++ save, he's going to kill himself, much less lose firepower.

How do you target something that outranges your short-ranged plasma by 3x and can move 6" +2-4d6" and shoot? Your weapons don't have infinite range.
How do you get your librarian into assault with it?
How do you tarpit something you will never catch in assault with horde?

3 Riptides is 555 points. You can take Crisis suits in your HQ unit in large quantities, and in any case Crisis suits are rubbish compared to Riptides.

Like I pointed out, you only need to charge when you're in danger, and most of the time you outrange everything that is shooting at you.