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2013/04/09 19:02:34
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
"The research group wasn't planning on focus-testing female players - it's something we had to specifically request." - Naughty Dog creative director Neil Druckmann explains how his company had to step in during focus-testing for The Last of Us.
As part of the focus-testing for the upcoming title, Druckmann discovered that the research firm the company had brought in to handle the focus groups wasn't planning to poll a single female player.
"Players are rounded up and are asked to view materials and answer some quantitative and qualitative questions about it," he noted.
However, it came as a "big surprise" to find that he had to specifically request that the firm polled women as well as men.
"I hope this is a relic of the past that will soon go away," he added. This same marketing firm also told Naughty Dog that it would be best to put The Last of Us' female protagonist Ellie on the back of the box rather than the front, although Naughty Dog refused this advice.
This latter point echoes the words of Jean-Max Morris, creative director on upcoming Capcom adventure game Remember Me, who recently said that publishers were against having a female character as the main protagonist in video games.
Another recent focus testing case centred around Uncharted's female protagonist Chase, who focus-testers said was too much of a wimp. Sony Bend subsequentally made Chase a stronger character who could carry herself in situations.
]If a lot of the pushback against feminist critique of video games, or even the simple assertion that women enjoy playing games and so maybe a studio should consider them to be a valuable demographic, contains a core misconception, it is that the people calling for better representation in the games industry and in the female characters in games think that every man in the industry is an evil women-hating jerk. I mean, come on, those guys have mothers, wives, sisters, and female friends! They don’t hate women!
In fact, if the folks who were responsible for problematic portrayals of female characters or poor representation of real women in games industry were doing it all purely deliberately, it’d probably be a lot easier to fix. The reality is that a lot of this stuff is far more subtle than that, and the sad fact remains that all of us are capable of having noble or even neutral intentions while still overlooking the subtle ways in which we’re contributing to a stereotype, operating on a false assumption, or missing out on a different but important perspective. Case in point, some of the things the creators of The Last of Us have mentioned lately.
We last heard from developer Naughty Dog when The Last of Us scriptwriter Neil Druckmann and voice actress Ashley Johnsondiscussed the state of female characters in the industry, and Druckmann mentioned that he’d encountered marketing talk that recommended that Ellie, the game’s co-lead, be pushed to the back of the box art, lest her presence on the front lead to lower sales. Since the game purports to focus at least as much on strangers Ellie and Joel forging a parent/child relationship over their travels as it does shooting and stealth mechanics in a post-apocalyptic America, Naughty Dog insisted.
In a recent interview with The Escapist, Druckmann talked more about the odd hurdles Naughty Dog found between them and trying to make a more gender equitable video game. In this case, they discovered that the company they hired to do market testing weren’t planning on including any women in their focus groups… until it was specifically requested.
Another aspect that influences how a game is promoted is focus-testing. Players are rounded up and are asked to view materials and answer some quantitative and qualitative questions about it. My big surprise during this process is that the research group wasn’t planning on focus-testing female gamers – it’s something we had to specifically request. I hope this is a relic of the past that will soon go away.
So here we see a pretty serious effect of how the assumption “women don’t play video games” becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we assume that women don’t play, then we’ll never ask them what they think of a game, and it becomes far more likely that we’ll create a game that presents gender in a limited way, from a limited perspective, or even an offensive one. And then women will be less likely to enjoy playing our game, but that’s all right, because we know that women don’t play games anyway.
It’s clear that not asking women about the quality of a video game is a habit for this company, likely something they’ve been doing for so long that it’s simply accepted as routine. Is that evil? No. Is it lazy, shortsighted, and wrong? Yes.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/04/09 19:34:16
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
This was actually an article that made me feel some warmth inside, because Naughty Dog actually wanted to include women in the testing and demanded it.
Edit: I still hate women though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/09 19:35:06
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2013/04/09 19:36:22
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
According to Cracked, you just hate us because we don't have sex with you enough
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/04/09 19:37:48
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
Edit: Maybe #3? It's possible, though I did grow up in a female dominated household.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/09 19:39:42
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2013/04/09 19:39:24
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
Then obviously you just have boob-envy, because everyone knows man-boobs aren't as awesome as girl-boobs.
Jokes aside, I'm also glad that they specifically pushed Marketing to stop being idiots.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/04/09 19:39:49
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
Melissia wrote: So the gaming industry excludes women from focus testing unless they're specifically requested by developers, apparently.
women don't make the money so they matter less for marketing purposes.
I realize that this is likely intended to be a joke, but it's still in bad taste even compared to the other jokes in this thread (which were already starting off in bad taste anyway)
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/04/09 21:06:25
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
I think the thrust of Grundz point is that women aren't seen as the people to aim for to make the most money for the industry, so in turn games testers only bother with men for testing. Which is pretty sad and something I'd like us to move away from.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/09 21:08:21
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2013/04/09 21:34:28
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
Then obviously you just have boob-envy, because everyone knows man-boobs aren't as awesome as girl-boobs.
Jokes aside, I'm also glad that they specifically pushed Marketing to stop being idiots.
He probably wins the boob war too.
Anyway, on topic.
Yeah.. had not expected it to be this bad. Hell, I have a mate who works as tester for EA in Ireland, I'm gonna see if I can get a word out of him on how many women he actually has as colleagues over there.
I think the biggest question to ask here is; Is this just an isolated instance of this happening with one backwards company(Which apparently is big and trusted enough to get the guys from naughty dogs to come to them) or is it as wide spread as we all probably fear? I'm pretty scared that the latter is more plausible considering this has to be one of the big boys in the market.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/09 21:34:40
2013/04/09 23:41:49
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
Yeah we went over related topics back in the Tropes vs Women tread. Another problem stemming from traditional mass marketing.
I think the biggest question to ask here is; Is this just an isolated instance of this happening with one backwards company(Which apparently is big and trusted enough to get the guys from naughty dogs to come to them) or is it as wide spread as we all probably fear? I'm pretty scared that the latter is more plausible considering this has to be one of the big boys in the market.
Doubt its isolated. This is how marketing is done. Products are usually targeted at a specific gender (unless we're talking about something like plain blue bed sheets). With video games, its still marketed as a boys world, similar to comic books or table top games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/09 23:42:25
Marketing I suspect is more a symptom than the root of the problem.
Statistics show that men are the majority but female gamers have been rapidly growing for a number of years now (even the most conservative estimates I think list them at nearly 20% of the AAA market). But the common mentality in the games industry is that it's a man's industry and the idea that women can make up a viable market for the product is something the industry at large seems to struggle to grasp. They don't consider women (as in the case in the op) as a demographic they can sell the product too.
It's especially weird as Survival Horror games like The Last of Us tend to draw an audience of both genders and very reliably. One would think people in marketing would be aware of this and look at the potential of the female market rather than ignoring it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/10 00:15:45
LordofHats wrote: Marketing I suspect is more a symptom than the root of the problem.
Statistics show that men are the majority but female gamers have been rapidly growing for a number of years now (even the most conservative estimates I think list them at nearly 20% of the AAA market). But the common mentality in the games industry is that it's a man's industry and the idea that women can make up a viable market for the product is something the industry at large seems to struggle to grasp. They don't consider women (as in the case in the op) as a demographic they can sell the product too.
It's especially weird as Survival Horror games like The Last of Us tend to draw an audience of both genders and very reliably. One would think people in marketing would be aware of this and look at the potential of the female market rather than ignoring it.
While women certainly play the more 'hardcore' titles, I think it's pretty difficult to deny that casual games tend to be where the majority of their video game dollars are spent. I'm not sure, if I ran, say, a shooter developer, I'd spend all that much time marketing to women, simply because it'd be such a low return on investment.
2013/04/10 01:10:45
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
Melissia wrote: So the gaming industry excludes women from focus testing unless they're specifically requested by developers, apparently.
women don't make the money so they matter less for marketing purposes.
I realize that this is likely intended to be a joke, but it's still in bad taste even compared to the other jokes in this thread (which were already starting off in bad taste anyway)
Why would it be a joke? the male 18-25orsomething demographic is valued about 2 times larger than the same female demographic by marketing.
Because we make more money and spend it friviliously on things
Godforge custom 3d printing / professional level casting masters and design:
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2013/04/10 01:20:38
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
Melissia wrote: So the gaming industry excludes women from focus testing unless they're specifically requested by developers, apparently.
women don't make the money so they matter less for marketing purposes.
I realize that this is likely intended to be a joke, but it's still in bad taste even compared to the other jokes in this thread (which were already starting off in bad taste anyway)
Why would it be a joke? the male 18-25orsomething demographic is valued about 2 times larger than the same female demographic by marketing. Because we make more money and spend it friviliously on things
No, that's not why.
Women spend money frivolously, too. I mean, at least that's what all the comedians tell me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 01:21:12
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/04/10 01:38:07
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
While women certainly play the more 'hardcore' titles, I think it's pretty difficult to deny that casual games tend to be where the majority of their video game dollars are spent. I'm not sure, if I ran, say, a shooter developer, I'd spend all that much time marketing to women, simply because it'd be such a low return on investment.
I'd suspect this is generally true, but Bungie did a poll way back in the days of Halo 3 and found that nearly a quarter of Halo's XBL player base was female. That's a pretty hefty number all things considered and it's not like making a game appealing to women inherently makes it unappealing to men. The simple option to be a female Spartan in subsequent Halo titles was probably fueled by that study and it's been fairly well received.
Before Halo 2, Bungie made a thread on their forums because apparently they'd realised that, wow, maybe women like playing female characters in games? And they asked if that was the case. It turned out the answer was yes, duh and they ended up adding the option to have a female character (visually identical, but different sounds) in multiplayer.
I wonder how widespread this issue is - how much business this "unnamed market research firm" gets and how many others act the same way.
That David Gaider article (linked near the end of the second spoiler) is really good, too.
2013/04/10 03:05:10
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
While women certainly play the more 'hardcore' titles, I think it's pretty difficult to deny that casual games tend to be where the majority of their video game dollars are spent. I'm not sure, if I ran, say, a shooter developer, I'd spend all that much time marketing to women, simply because it'd be such a low return on investment.
I'd suspect this is generally true, but Bungie did a poll way back in the days of Halo 3 and found that nearly a quarter of Halo's XBL player base was female. That's a pretty hefty number all things considered and it's not like making a game appealing to women inherently makes it unappealing to men. The simple option to be a female Spartan in subsequent Halo titles was probably fueled by that study and it's been fairly well received.
Although I don't disagree with this, it kind of shows that you should market more for men.
Lets suppose the above is correct - 75% men, and 25% women in a game like Halo.
Lets assume that for every $1 spent on marketing, I get a $2 return on investment (RoI)
Lets assume a 0% carryover from marketing for men to marketing for women (as in, every dollar I spend on men does not increase female sales)
If I spend $100 marketing towards men, I get a $150 RoI
If I spend the same $100 marketing towards women, I get a $50 RoI (let loss of $50)
Even if you assume a 75% carryover from marketing for men to marketing for women the numbers come out in the male's favor:
Same situation - $100 towards men gives a $187.50 RoI
$100 towards women gives a $162.50 RoI
Purely marketing for men is, in this simplified case, a better bang for your buck.
Am I saying that women should be excluded? Of course not. I'm all in favor of getting more women into gaming. Fem Shep, fem spartans, etc. are good ideas and the trend should be continued if that's what it takes to get women to play those games. But the reality of it is, more men play video games than women and marketing should focus where their best return is. The video game world should be no different than any other market. It's sexist, but it's the way of the world. Cooking and cleaning products - women; power tools and sports cars - men.
Now, I admit that I'm no marketing major, nor am I getting into the whole debate of "if games were marketed more for women then more women would play games!" but I'd say the polling company probably had the right idea:
Dave - "What's our target demographic?"
Bob - "16-25 year old males"
Dave - "Hmm.... who should we poll to get information on what to do to make our target demographic buy this game?"
Bob - "Uhhh.... 16-25 year old males?"
Dave - "Great idea! Get on that!"
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2013/04/10 03:16:29
Subject: Re:Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
The problem is, marketing with one demographic in mind doesn't necessarily just increase sales to that demographic. It can also actively decrease sales to other demographics. Same with design. If you read David Gaider's article, there, you can see an example of the male writers being taken by surprise at the way all the female writers read something quite differently to them and in a negative way that the original writer did not intend.
2013/04/10 04:44:45
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
Shrike325 wrote: Although I don't disagree with this, it kind of shows that you should market more for men.
Lets suppose the above is correct - 75% men, and 25% women in a game like Halo.
Lets assume that for every $1 spent on marketing, I get a $2 return on investment (RoI)
Lets assume a 0% carryover from marketing for men to marketing for women (as in, every dollar I spend on men does not increase female sales)
If I spend $100 marketing towards men, I get a $150 RoI
If I spend the same $100 marketing towards women, I get a $50 RoI (let loss of $50)
Even if you assume a 75% carryover from marketing for men to marketing for women the numbers come out in the male's favor:
Same situation - $100 towards men gives a $187.50 RoI
$100 towards women gives a $162.50 RoI
Purely marketing for men is, in this simplified case, a better bang for your buck.
Am I saying that women should be excluded? Of course not. I'm all in favor of getting more women into gaming. Fem Shep, fem spartans, etc. are good ideas and the trend should be continued if that's what it takes to get women to play those games. But the reality of it is, more men play video games than women and marketing should focus where their best return is. The video game world should be no different than any other market. It's sexist, but it's the way of the world. Cooking and cleaning products - women; power tools and sports cars - men.
Now, I admit that I'm no marketing major, nor am I getting into the whole debate of "if games were marketed more for women then more women would play games!" but I'd say the polling company probably had the right idea:
Dave - "What's our target demographic?"
Bob - "16-25 year old males"
Dave - "Hmm.... who should we poll to get information on what to do to make our target demographic buy this game?"
Bob - "Uhhh.... 16-25 year old males?"
Dave - "Great idea! Get on that!"
I don't disagree. My opinion on this is that its not really a problem that can be 'fixed'. It's not algebra where you can find x and the equation is solved. Human behavior is a more tenacious thing and sometimes I think people are forced to just wait and see how it works itself out. Being aware of the situation is of course step one I suppose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 04:46:10
From a marketing point of view, it makes perfect sense to have a majority of male testers as they make up for the biggest potential market in the case of such games - men core gamers are far more numerous than girl core gamers thus, if you're smart, you cater to males rather than females. Still, I wouldn't neglect such a market...why not have a few female testers as well? I don't see any downsides.
Sauce:
* Teens, Video Games and Civics (2008) * State of the Media: The Cross-Platform Report (2012)
...an on another regard: can we please leave David Gaide out of, idk, everything? He's a self-loving bunghole.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/10 10:20:35
Had quite a long talk with my friend at EA yesterday.
He said, while his department (tech support and customer data analysis) was almost completely a boys club, it was run by a lesbian, which gave me chuckle.
Anyway, I asked a bit about their testing crew, apparently, their testing department is in Madrid and 90%+ is male. Not a big suprise there I guess.
What was amusing though, he told me about the difference between male and female accounts. Accounts owned by female, on avarage, are worth almost 4 times as much as the male avarage. Women are much bigger spenders then men on EA games with the avarage for women being over a 1000 dollars per account. Though most of it was attributed to sims games.
But considering that women seem to be bigger spenders when it comes to gaming it's odd that they still get so little love in the industry.
2013/04/10 12:34:38
Subject: Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women
What was amusing though, he told me about the difference between male and female accounts. Accounts owned by female, on avarage, are worth almost 4 times as much as the male avarage. Women are much bigger spenders then men on EA games with the avarage for women being over a 1000 dollars per account. Though most of it was attributed to sims games.
Actually I want to say I heard something similar about Steam... Not sure where though (could be wrong and might be imagining it XD).
I'll bet it's a combo of Sims, which has always been popular with the people of Venus, and Bioware.
That's no surprise to me. I 've invested more in my Steam account than most of my friends on Steam as well, with 100+ games on my two accounts (excluding duplicates).
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
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