Game developer has to specifically request that focus groups include women

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**Melissia**

Kanluwen wrote:
Doubtful, as long as they continue to try to do military styled games.

There's more variety in the military than 18-25 year old white male skinheads.

**Soladrin**

I wish the era of military shooters would just end already. It's boring, overdone and uninspired vomit that keeps getting regurgitated.

**Melissia**

It's sad really, because even after all this time it still has a lot of untapped potential.

The desire for "historical accuracy" and trying to desperately be relevant to current news in real modern wars gets in the way of many military shooters actually innovating both their storytelling AND their gameplay. Which is why you get several series of near-identical games (battlefield, call of duty, medal of honor, etc).

**Soladrin**

It also helps that they fail in both of those cases due to being one guy killing thousands.

**Melissia**

Soladrin wrote:
It also helps that they fail in both of those cases due to being one guy killing thousands.

Which is why they shouldn't bother focusing so much on it in the first place.

That's kind of what I liked about Quake 4. It didn't try to be historically accurate. You were a fething badass in a badass army, fighting off aliens with just barely futuristic weapons (most of them were just modern weapons with cool user interfaces, really, aside from the rare energy weapon).

Also had great visuals and a torture scene before it became popular to add a torture scene in.

**Soladrin**

Never played Quake 4, never really got into that series except for Q3 arena.

**Melissia**

Soladrin wrote:
Never played Quake 4, never really got into that series except for Q3 arena.

I highly recommend it for its single player. It multiplayer is basically "Q3 Arena with better, browner graphics", which is not necessarily bad per se, but it doesn't stick out like the single player campaign does.

**Soladrin**

Are previous titles required to enjoy it a bit more?

**Grundz**

Melissia wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
It also helps that they fail in both of those cases due to being one guy killing thousands.
Which is why they shouldn't bother focusing so much on it in the first place.

you cant exactly make a shooter about baking cakes, as much as you'd buy the hell out of it.
driving a motorcycle off a building while firing two grenade launchers one handed will always be far more fun than the "realism" you guys call for.
news flash: in a real gunfight you're mostly waiting around for the other guy to stick his head out or puttering around action movies have spoiled you

**Soladrin**

Grundz wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
It also helps that they fail in both of those cases due to being one guy killing thousands.
Which is why they shouldn't bother focusing so much on it in the first place.

you cant exactly make a shooter about baking cakes, as much as you'd buy the hell out of it.
driving a motorcycle off a building while firing two grenade launchers one handed will always be far more fun than the "realism" you guys call for.
news flash: in a real gunfight you're mostly waiting around for the other guy to stick his head out or puttering around action movies have spoiled you

News flash: I don't want realistic at all, I'm pretty sure I just said I don't like military shooters, how does this in anyway tell you that I want realism? It's the last thing I want in my video games.

The problem is that those games are trying to do both.

**Grundz**

Soladrin wrote:

The problem is that those games are trying to do both.

you just have to /believe/ solo

also I went back and played doom a while back, either my pc was way slower back then and I never noticed or I did a TON of coke in my youth, because I dont remember being able to nearly outrun a missle O_o

**Soladrin**

Maybe you weren't holding shift?

**Melissia**

Soladrin wrote:
Are previous titles required to enjoy it a bit more?

No, actually. It ties in to the previous doom games, but it's entirely a self-contained war story.

Mind you, it's perilously close to Starship Troopers, but in a good way.

Grundz wrote:
driving a motorcycle off a building while firing two grenade launchers one handed will always be far more fun than the "realism" you guys call for.

I don't call for it-- indeed, I've been stridently opposed to "realism" in modern games for a long, long time.

**nomotog**

Sigvatr wrote:
Melissia wrote:
The onus is on you to prove that feminists aren't doing this:

Never said that. I said to become vocal. And I don't mean your definition of vocal aka making irrational claims. You do not seem to having had a look at how such a behavior is treated in levels that actually matter - people laught at your face. Becoming vocal means being serious - about your arguments and, most of all, about your appearance. That does happen in few places, but the problem are people like you, female supremacist / sexists who are very vocal but cannot back up anything they got and, as stated before, refuse logical reasoning. The consequence? Put every such movement in a bad light.

The initial point, that you tried to dodge, was that talking about sexism in video games is a trend that will go away as soon as it came. As factually proven above, it happens to everything and I don't see any reason why this topic should be an exception. It will fade away in a few weeks; actually, it's fading away right now. Unless you accept reality, you will never have an impact on anything.

Madcat87 wrote:

Going on what nomotog said, every year we see more and more surveys saying the people playing games are getting older and older and women are making an increasingly larger portion of gamers. The industry in my view is cripiling itself by focusing on one demographic.

You need to have a look at more detailed studies though. Women are, by a long shot, preferring social games and such whereas men heavily prefer action games. We saw a huge influx of female gamers with a spike not so long ago due to the rise of facebook / social games whereas the classic core genres did not change much in regards to gender preference.

nomotog wrote:

Different problems but same solution. If you remove the perception that the main character needs to pander to 18-25 year old white males, then things really open up. Not only will we have nice female charters, but we will also get more diversity of male charters.

It needs to fit though - a fat guy or even an average man wouldn't be able to handle himself in a generic military shooter...and those are a huge genre that is vastly preferred by male players. Successful genre, dominated by male players => make more games and cater to the crowd.

Personally, I'd like to have more 3rd person games with females a I also play female characters in, e.g., World of Warcraft - if I am stuck with staring at a character's back for lots of hours, I'd want it to be an attractive one.

Even if your doing a hard core military game, there is still room for more diversity. You don't have to use that generic white guy just because your doing a military game. You could do characters with different races. You could even do it with a female character. Maybe you play a female truck driver, but you convoy is attacked and you have to find your way back to base by yourself. Maybe a truck driver isn't really as capable as a marine, but that just makes her a more compelling as a character as she struggles to rise up above what she is in order to survive. It's a perfectly realistic idea and it dosen't require that you play a generic white guy.

I don't think it's realism that limits these characters. It's more the pandering thing. The idea that a main character needs to be someone who 18-25 year old can identify with. It's an actual thing that publishers and marketing people try to push onto games. Games often get told to charge their main character to fit this over used mold.

**Madcat87**

nomotog wrote:
Even if your doing a hard core military game, there is still room for more diversity. You don't have to use that generic white guy just because your doing a military game. You could do characters with different races. You could even do it with a female character. Maybe you play a female truck driver, but you convoy is attacked and you have to find your way back to base by yourself. Maybe a truck driver isn't really as capable as a marine, but that just makes her a more compelling as a character as she struggles to rise up above what she is in order to survive. It's a perfectly realistic idea and it dosen't require that you play a generic white guy.

I don't think it's realism that limits these characters. It's more the pandering thing. The idea that a main character needs to be someone who 18-25 year old can identify with. It's an actual thing that publishers and marketing people try to push onto games. Games often get told to charge their main character to fit this over used mold.

I'm surprised we don't see this more often in gaming as its fairly common in movies, particulary horror and thriller and very easy to pull off. Kill off all the capable characters to create the suspense about how the less capable main character will win.

I also get tired of people who use realism as an excuse for lazy character design. Many people hurled complaints at the America's Army game because it wasn't realistic enough... when compared to other shooters. Reloading, flashbangs, weapon recoil/accuracy, etc. All of that stuff in the majority of modern military shooters is actually horribly unrealistic so why all of a sudden pull out the realism card when we get to the main character.

**nomotog**

Madcat87 wrote:
nomotog wrote:
Even if your doing a hard core military game, there is still room for more diversity. You don't have to use that generic white guy just because your doing a military game. You could do characters with different races. You could even do it with a female character. Maybe you play a female truck driver, but you convoy is attacked and you have to find your way back to base by yourself. Maybe a truck driver isn't really as capable as a marine, but that just makes her a more compelling as a character as she struggles to rise up above what she is in order to survive. It's a perfectly realistic idea and it dosen't require that you play a generic white guy.

I don't think it's realism that limits these characters. It's more the pandering thing. The idea that a main character needs to be someone who 18-25 year old can identify with. It's an actual thing that publishers and marketing people try to push onto games. Games often get told to charge their main character to fit this over used mold.

I'm surprised we don't see this more often in gaming as its fairly common in movies, particulary horror and thriller and very easy to pull off. Kill off all the capable characters to create the suspense about how the less capable main character will win.

I also get tired of people who use realism as an excuse for lazy character design. Many people hurled complaints at the America's Army game because it wasn't realistic enough... when compared to other shooters. Reloading, flashbangs, weapon recoil/accuracy, etc. All of that stuff in the majority of modern military shooters is actually horribly unrealistic so why all of a sudden pull out the realism card when we get to the main character.

I think it's mostly the empowerment trend in gaming. Hyper empowered charters are fun to play. It's really visceral to pick up a bus and use it to play skiball. It's only a trend though not a universal rule. You look in gaming past and in gaming future and you find games that put the focus on the struggle. Survival horror, use to be quite big. I think we might also be trending back with games like XCom where the effort is put back on making the player struggle.

Reality is unrealistic. The majority of realistic games simply aren't realistic in any shape or form. It's more just a shared delusion of reality.

**Seaward**

Melissia wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Doubtful, as long as they continue to try to do military styled games.
There's more variety in the military than 18-25 year old white male skinheads.

Yup, but that does tend to be the average profile of tip-of-the-spear outfits, as long as you add 10 years to the given age range. NSW's even been on a, "Seriously, if you're a minority, we'd love to have you. Please, please, please come to BUD/S," kick lately.

**Dark Scipio**

Melissia wrote:
MrDwhitey wrote:
Edit: I still hate women though.
According to Cracked, you just hate us because we don't have sex with you enough

Good read. Thanks.

**Melissia**

Seaward wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Doubtful, as long as they continue to try to do military styled games.
There's more variety in the military than 18-25 year old white male skinheads.

Yup, but that does tend to be the average profile of tip-of-the-spear outfits, as long as you add 10 years to the given age range. NSW's even been on a, "Seriously, if you're a minority, we'd love to have you. Please, please, please come to BUD/S," kick lately.

But that's no excuse for games to exclude them entirely.

Just bad game design.

**Seaward**

Melissia wrote:
But that's no excuse for games to exclude them entirely.

Just bad game design.

Depends on if they're going for realism or not.

Either way, I'm not sure the argument that Modern Warfare 4 needs to be the vehicle for politically correct social change is going to have a lot of resonance.

**nomotog**

Seaward wrote:
Melissia wrote:
But that's no excuse for games to exclude them entirely.

Just bad game design.

Depends on if they're going for realism or not.

Either way, I'm not sure the argument that Modern Warfare 4 needs to be the vehicle for politically correct social change is going to have a lot of resonance.

What vehicle would you pick?

**Melissia**

Seaward wrote:
Melissia wrote:
But that's no excuse for games to exclude them entirely.

Just bad game design.

Depends on if they're going for realism or not.

Either way, I'm not sure the argument that Modern Warfare 4 needs to be the vehicle for politically correct social change is going to have a lot of resonance.

Oh so it's not realistic to depict a black soldier?

**Seaward**

Melissia wrote:
Oh so it's not realistic to depict a black soldier?

It's absolutely realistic.

If you're going for, "MOST LOL REALISTIC NAVY SEALMAN SIMULATOR OF ALL TIMES!!!eleventyone!!!" then it'll mostly be white dudes, because, hey, that's the majority composition in reality, for whatever reason.

Realism's also a stupid goal unless you're the guys developing Arma.

**Melissia**

Seaward wrote:
Realism's also a stupid goal unless you're the guys developing Arma.

Please, stop claiming ARMA's realistic, you're only going to encourage them to keep making gakky games.

**Seaward**

Melissia wrote:
Seaward wrote:
Realism's also a stupid goal unless you're the guys developing Arma.
Please, stop claiming ARMA's realistic, you're only going to encourage them to keep making gakky games.

I don't recall claiming it was.

I certainly implied it's their goal, though. And they seem to be doing alright from trying to achieve it.

**Melissia**

Seaward wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Seaward wrote:
Realism's also a stupid goal unless you're the guys developing Arma.
Please, stop claiming ARMA's realistic, you're only going to encourage them to keep making gakky games.

I don't recall claiming it was.

Even acting like they're trying to be realistic is probably too much.

They just want the pretense of realism because it drives up sales from people who think to themselves "ooh, realistic! That means that I get to be a real badass this time!".

It's like gun advertisements. Actually, ARMA does gun adverts, amusingly enough.