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Gurus,
I have been re-reading my 6th ed rulebook and I am curious if I can save my PK Nob by keeping him initially "un-engaged" (BRB 23 Bottom left). I would do this by a scenerio outlined below. Then they would become "engaged" at the initiative step 1 (unwieldly PK)

Scenerio:
29 Orks + 1 PK Nob charging 10 Man Tactical Squad + Captain.
- They announce the charge
- Overwatch is resolved.
- Models are moved to B2B. However, the 29 Orks with a PK nob in the middle of the mob is seperated by greater than 2" from the orks in B2B with the much reviled Spes Mareenz....
- Initiative Steps 10-6 nothing happens.
- Initiative 5:
- - Captain Piles in and Issues a challenge. However the PK Nob is "un-engaged" at this time. Blows are struck. Orks die.
Initiative 4
- - Marines pile in more Orks die.
Initiative 3
- - Nothing happens
Initiative 2
- - Orks pile into the breach 3". More orks die and some marines.
Initiative 1
- - PK Nob piles in and is NOW within 2" of another ork in B2B and instant deaths a few marines.

Orks fail morale and run off the table led by the intact Nob with PK.

Is this correct?

how did more orks die at I2? else this seems fine to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phatonic wrote:
how did more orks die at I2? else this seems fine to me.

also are you saying the marines killed. 20 boyz in cc? as they failed their moral due not being fearless?

1) Yes, if you are not engaged prior to I10 you cannot issue or accept challenges. This is crystal clear RAW, not ambiguous
2) How did orks die to marines at I2?? And you lost 20+ orks to marines, to end up below 11 models and thus not fearless?

RAI - this waaagh is questionable.
RAW - yeah... looks like if you can manouvre it, you're right.

Remember though, that everyone in your unit has to strive to get into combat in the charge. You can't hold him back. He has to move his max distance.

@All: yes I2 was a type-o. Only Mareen scum dies.
@Purifier. Yes. I would not hold him back (cheating). I play by the rules to avoid the unpleasant feeling of the "hollow victory." However this seems like it could turn into a math hammer question. How many Orks would I expect to lose in the first 8 steps of the assault. Translate that into inches from which to keep the nob from the front of the fray divided by Avagadro's Number to the cubed root of Plank's Constant. gak... What was I talking about again?

 doktor_g wrote:
@All: yes I2 was a type-o. Only Mareen scum dies.
@Purifier. Yes. I would not hold him back (cheating). I play by the rules to avoid the unpleasant feeling of the "hollow victory." However this seems like it could turn into a math hammer question. How many Orks would I expect to lose in the first 8 steps of the assault. Translate that into inches from which to keep the nob from the front of the fray divided by Avagadro's Number to the cubed root of Plank's Constant. gak... What was I talking about again?

Since the charge range is random, I'd say it would be very hard to pull off.

Easier if you're the chargee.

 doktor_g wrote:
@All: yes I2 was a type-o. Only Mareen scum dies.
@Purifier. Yes. I would not hold him back (cheating). I play by the rules to avoid the unpleasant feeling of the "hollow victory." However this seems like it could turn into a math hammer question. How many Orks would I expect to lose in the first 8 steps of the assault. Translate that into inches from which to keep the nob from the front of the fray divided by Avagadro's Number to the cubed root of Plank's Constant. gak... What was I talking about again?

take in mind if all those were shootas youd get to overwatch... sixthy shots, math hammer 10 hits and 4/5/6 wound wich migth kill some marines, the orks and the marines having the same WS and T the marines thats left might inflict 6-10 wounds the most wich you might some tshirt saves off.. then orks go and smash them back with the mass quanity of hits of str 3. and then comes the pk nob in making the marines flee

 Purifier wrote:
RAI - this waaagh is questionable.
RAW - yeah... looks like if you can manouvre it, you're right.

Remember though, that everyone in your unit has to strive to get into combat in the charge. You can't hold him back. He has to move his max distance.

Nope, he has to move the furthest distance he can, so moving other models in the way can block this.

You only need to end up >2" away from the models in base contact to not be engaged, and therefore unable to be challenged.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
RAI - this waaagh is questionable.
RAW - yeah... looks like if you can manouvre it, you're right.

Remember though, that everyone in your unit has to strive to get into combat in the charge. You can't hold him back. He has to move his max distance.

Nope, he has to move the furthest distance he can, so moving other models in the way can block this.

You only need to end up >2" away from the models in base contact to not be engaged, and therefore unable to be challenged.

And "the furthest distance he can," isn't his max distance? Then what would you describe "max distance" as?
I didn't say "you have to move the full amount rolled" which would be something else entirely.

Also, I'd probably start nitpicking on what every single model's "furthest distance he can" is if you start manouvering everyone else to block off your nob and then move your nob last, because that's quite obviously bending the rules.

Oh I guess actually you CAN hold the nob back.

Check it out... BRB page 21. "After moving the first model in the unit, you may move other models in ANY sequence you desire providing that..."

Calling this term here and now "Nob Block." Copyright and Trademark. All Rights Reserved.

 doktor_g wrote:
Oh I guess actually you CAN hold the nob back.

Check it out... BRB page 21. "After moving the first model in the unit, you may move other models in ANY sequence you desire providing that..."

Calling this term here and now "Nob Block." Copyright and Trademark. All Rights Reserved.

yes, but each of those still have to move as far as they can, and each of your first movers have to attempt to get into contact with an unengaged enemy model, meaning your guys will start spreading out along the enemy and open up a path for the nob to get into 2" away from an ork in combat.

Obviously, what you do is you move enough into base to base contact that there are no models left that can get into base to base.
You then start building a wall out of the rest of the models, putting them all at the max distance away from the fighting models that still puts them within 2 inches of a fighting model. You'll end up with 2 lines of orks, and if you have enough, that'll block off the nob from getting close enough...

and it's gonna be cheesy as hell, and if I met it in a game outside a tournament I would never play you again

The rule you quoted ends with:
"If you follow this sequence, you will end up with all the models in the charging unit i coherency, having engaged as many enemy models as possible with as many charging models as possible"

This is not true when you perform the Nob Block™ move.
But it's not technically speaking a rule either. More a faulty conclusion made by GW. It does make the RAI clear though.

Yes, howver it is the same as in 5th, when you carefully positioned models during move (or run, if you were fleet) to ensure the best charge result

It is no more or less against RAI than the pivot trick for long, thin vehicles.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, howver it is the same as in 5th, when you carefully positioned models during move (or run, if you were fleet) to ensure the best charge result

It is no more or less against RAI than the pivot trick for long, thin vehicles.

Well, it is, actually, since the rulebook in this case clearly states the intended result. I.E. the RAI.

@purifier: You think that's rules lawyering? That makes me sad. I don't think anyone's ever said they wouldn't play me if I followed a rule. Im not a WAAC player. I'm actually a PAAC (play at all costs) player since I live in the middle of nowhere and have to drive minimum 90 miles for an opponent.

Sad face...

Ya that's how it could work.

 doktor_g wrote:
@purifier: You think that's rules lawyering? That makes me sad. I don't think anyone's ever said they wouldn't play me if I followed a rule. Im not a WAAC player. I'm actually a PAAC (play at all costs) player since I live in the middle of nowhere and have to drive minimum 90 miles for an opponent.

Sad face...

Since it goes against what is probably most clearly stated RAI in the book, yeah, I'd probably call it rules lawyering. If one of my friends managed to figure something like this out and spring it on me in a game, we'd do that thing where you both have wide grins and point at eachother with finger-guns while going "ohhh youuuuuu!" And would allow it, and then go "but seriously though, next game..."

Ok. Next game then.

Seriously, you all call this cheese? This is a very easy situation to encounter when fighting with swarms with an IC attached. A large group can easily be assaulted from either side and the Character be unengaged at the start of the fight. By RULE, he cannot accept a challenge. The same thing can happen if the Character is not leading from the front. The front lines can charge (especially if you roll the minimum distance to be successful) and be engage while the back of the blob isnt.

This may be rare with Tac squads and such, but its easy to encounter with 20-30man units.

Fragile wrote:
Seriously, you all call this cheese? This is a very easy situation to encounter when fighting with swarms with an IC attached. A large group can easily be assaulted from either side and the Character be unengaged at the start of the fight. By RULE, he cannot accept a challenge. The same thing can happen if the Character is not leading from the front. The front lines can charge (especially if you roll the minimum distance to be successful) and be engage while the back of the blob isnt.

This may be rare with Tac squads and such, but its easy to encounter with 20-30man units.

You need to be careful here though, Independent characters and characters are treated differently. I'm at work so can't site the page in the book, but Independent characters move first into assault, the book literally says that they lead by example and charge in first. So while this trick would be legal (by RAW) with a character as the OP asked, it is illegal with an Independent character.

Can you find the rules for that? Page 21 and page 39 make no mention of this

I've never heard of that ic rule. And encountering a situation is very different from forcing a self-block by only moving people the minimum distance.

Characters will Pile In first by rule. But they will not charge first.

challenges are made before any blows are thrown, not at initiative. If at this point one or both characters are not within 2inches of a model in b2b, thus not able to strike blows, a challenge cannot be issued/accepted. What happens after ANY pile ins is irrelevant.

Hard to pull off in most situations, pretty much means you need to roll the ideal charge not just one that makes you get there with the front model.
You can however move boyz behind the nob first to "block" the nob. Yes he technically goes around them rather than going straight forward and then stopping but going around is a much bigger distance to cover than straight, so it still helps.

Boyz are pretty much the only way this rule is going to come into effect for the vast amount of games you'll play. Just about any other unit doesnt have the numbers to pull it off and rely on them getting charged at the wrong angle, which isnt as good cuz you lack the +1 attack (and strenght for us orks)

EDIT: However dont forget the next round of fighting a challenge can be issued again. This wont happen more than once unless you manage to kill the enemy character or you are so damn far away you STILL werent close enough to attack lol (which sucks....)

Every model does move the max distance, however they cannot move through other models to get there.

This means if you really want to do it, you move the first charging model (which is the closest). Then you move a boy from the back or side that can get into base to base with just the boy that charged first. Then you move the guys from the back until the nob can get more than 2" from the engaged models. Then you move everyone else in as normal.

It is counter-intuitive, and you may only need to move a few orks in this manner, but it does conflict with the "most people in combat" rule, but the rule even reads on p 21: "If you follow this sequence you will end up... having engaged as many enemy models as possible...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) Yes, if you are not engaged prior to I10 you cannot issue or accept challenges. This is crystal clear RAW, not ambiguous

It's on p64, for anyone who wants to look.

Now, here's the problem I found: to be considered "engaged," the model must, at its Initiative step be in base or within 2" of a model in base with the enemy (p23). My model cannot be engaged till its own Initiative step, and yet challenges are issued before I10. Thus, when a challenge is issued, no models are yet engaged, and so no one can ever issue or accept a Challenge.

That isnt a problem, it is how you keep some champs alive so they can swing

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) Yes, if you are not engaged prior to I10 you cannot issue or accept challenges. This is crystal clear RAW, not ambiguous

It's on p64, for anyone who wants to look.

Now, here's the problem I found: to be considered "engaged," the model must, at its Initiative step be in base or within 2" of a model in base with the enemy (p23). My model cannot be engaged till its own Initiative step, and yet challenges are issued before I10. Thus, when a challenge is issued, no models are yet engaged, and so no one can ever issue or accept a Challenge.

If the interpretation in question results in a nonfunctional rule, then you look for a functional interpretation.

Since the Challenge rules require models to be engaged to issue or accept challenges, and since Challenges are issued before I10, then models by definition must be able to be engaged prior to their own Init step. Since the requirement for being engaged is to be in base contact with the enemy or within 2" of a member of your own unit which is in base contact, and since the challenge rules require knowing whether the models are engaged, then clearly we must check to see if theyre engaged prior to the initiative countdown.

 Mannahnin wrote:

If the interpretation in question results in a nonfunctional rule, then you look for a functional interpretation.

This is a very well-put.

Since the Challenge rules require models to be engaged to issue or accept challenges, and since Challenges are issued before I10, then models by definition must be able to be engaged prior to their own Init step. Since the requirement for being engaged is to be in base contact with the enemy or within 2" of a member of your own unit which is in base contact, and since the challenge rules require knowing whether the models are engaged, then clearly we must check to see if theyre engaged prior to the initiative countdown.

If you have characters in the unit that are not engaged at the time of issuing challenges, does that count as "refusing" a challenge? I would think that, since they cannot accept, they cannot be considered as having refused.

Not only do I think this is legal, I don't think it's even slightly beardy.

Not only do you have to have enough ork boyz to prevent the nob from being able to come within 2" of a boy in base contact, you have to have him positioned where he can't move to within 2" of an ork who is engaged.

You have to have enough orks AFTER overwatch firing, too.

Then, you have to deal with the marines going first and piling in, and you have to also hope for the perfect balance of casualties. You have to hope that the marines don't kill so many boys that the nob can't swing the result through his combat resolution, but that they also kill enough boys that the nob CAN become engaged at Initiative 1. If you keep 12 orks, they are fearless, so maybe you don't worry too much about combat resolution.


Otherwise, you lose combat resolution and risk running (and thus risk losing your nob anyway). If your nob didn't get into contact, you preserved him for the second round, when he can just get challenged by the same thing that was going to kill him first round (unless you killed it). Are there going to be a lot of times when you get the numbers just right and the Nob piling in at I1 is what gives you the win in the combat?

It's such an edge case that I don't think anyone would plan their tactics around it, though I can see it coming up on occasion. It's going to be tricky (and somewhat out of your control) to set up, and there's no guaranteed payoff for doing it. I don't see how it is any cheesier than moving your guys so that upgraded models aren't the ones who get shot (or assaulted) first. You moved your unit so that some special model was preserved in order that the model could use its special rules in a specific phase. Whoop.

Seems legal to me. And fluffy, no less.