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I love the models and Ive felt for a long time that Tau were one of the races that should have a decent presence in the skies, but Im still unsure as to which one to go for. Opinions guys?

Cheers

Elliotminorkid

Well, I say go for a Razorshark. 4 str 7 shots that can be put into rear or side armor is pretty cool.

Neither because they both kinda blow but thats just because im not a vehicle fan. Fighter all the way if you really want a flyer though. I think its just better overall especially when you can over charge it and at that point you might as well have your bombing run except that you get S8 ap4 instead of 5 and 5

If I was playing Tau, I would be maxing out on Pathfinders every game and as such, wouldn't have any room for the flyers. Which is also what I think you should do and pass on taking any flyers.

The points as i find it is better spent on other stuff in the Tau codex rather than their fliers.

The thing that bomber gives you is two interceptor drones (too cool) and also a markerlight on the nose. I lean towards the bomber because I like the drones.

Sun Shark has my vote, even though I was initially more interested in the Razorshark.

S8 AP4 large blasts are fun, and the Razorshark delivers those just fine. And being able to fire 6 S7 shots into rear / side armor is always a bonus, and another point in the favor of the Razorshark.

However...

The more I've thought about the Sun Shark, the more it intrigues me. For instance, it can throw 6 S7 shots as well... but they're all twin-linked, where the Razorshark's aren't. Oh, and it's got a networked markerlight, so half the time it'll be firing at +1 BS. That makes it better in the direct-fire role than the Razorshark, on average, for only a minor increase in points. In addition, it can do bombing runs with a S5 AP5 large blast. Yes, it's true that you're wounding less and allowing more saves. Against hordes, that's not going to matter all that much, since they're usually T3/4 and with poor saves. Being able to double out T4 models is cool and all, but the ones you're usually wanting to double out aren't going to be fazed too much by an AP4 blast that doesn't ignore their armor. That's pretty much what Hammerheads and Riptides are for. Oh, and of course, the Sunshark can still throw out 2 S8 AP4 small blasts if needed, in addition to the pie plate.

Moreover, and I think this is a more subtle point, but the Sun Shark can actually engage three units in a single turn. You conduct a bombing run against one target, drop off the drones to attack a second target, and go after the third with your TLMP and Seekers. That's an incredible amount of flexibility, and in essence you get 2 anti-air and 1 anti-horde unit in a single flyer. That's a steal.

To add to the above: the sun shark's main power comes from the fact that after turn 2-3, it will be uncontested in the skies. A single unit of 2 railsides using skyfire and SMS is more than enough to down most fliers, especially if they've got missile drone and markerlight support of any kind.

Tau will have air superiority through having the only air.

 chrisrawr wrote:
To add to the above: the sun shark's main power comes from the fact that after turn 2-3, it will be uncontested in the skies. A single unit of 2 railsides using skyfire and SMS is more than enough to down most fliers, especially if they've got missile drone and markerlight support of any kind.

But that just makes the Tau flyers redundant. They aren't needed for AA, and they're terrible against ground targets.

 Peregrine wrote:

 chrisrawr wrote:
To add to the above: the sun shark's main power comes from the fact that after turn 2-3, it will be uncontested in the skies. A single unit of 2 railsides using skyfire and SMS is more than enough to down most fliers, especially if they've got missile drone and markerlight support of any kind.

But that just makes the Tau flyers redundant. They aren't needed for AA, and they're terrible against ground targets.

This, especially when they can't hover so they're going off the table edge a turn or two after they come on. OTOH, the fighter can shoot 360 so you can at least shoot that ugly mess hanging off its backside twice before it's useless again. The bomber; completely worthless in my opinion. It's not like either one of them area transport which most armies are getting now...

Uh, the bomber can stick around for as many turns as you need it to, and the drones are worth 20 points each regardless - it's easily the better choice between Tau fliers - which isn't saying much in the context of all fliers - but for the amount of firepower it puts out on its own and its virtual incontestability, it's well worth its points cost.

Play a couple games in Vassal using one for giggles before you talk about its viability or table use.

 chrisrawr wrote:
Uh, the bomber can stick around for as many turns as you need it to, and the drones are worth 20 points each regardless - it's easily the better choice between Tau fliers - which isn't saying much in the context of all fliers - but for the amount of firepower it puts out on its own and its virtual incontestability, it's well worth its points cost.

Play a couple games in Vassal using one for giggles before you talk about its viability or table use.

I'm probably missing something then because they're both flyers which means they have to zoom each turn they're on the board and they don't have "hover" like some other flyers do; in fact the bomber has to zoom to even use its bombs in the first place.

Sure, but you only have to move a minimum of 18" per turn. So it's not hard to stay on the board if you plan 1-2 turns ahead.

They're not useless, they don't suck against ground targets. The bomber will take out more horde than an Iontide on average, for fewer points. There's things they can't do and they may not fit with your list optimally, but they're far from useless.

Yes and they may turn 90* each turn, and it takes 360* to complete a square and most boards have 4 90* angles meaning that most fliers can manage 4 90* turns...

Veskrashen wrote:
The bomber will take out more horde than an Iontide on average, for fewer points.

Why do you need anti-horde shooting in an army where your basic troops are excellent horde killers?

 chrisrawr wrote:
Yes and they may turn 90* each turn, and it takes 360* to complete a square and most boards have 4 90* angles meaning that most fliers can manage 4 90* turns...

Which only matters if you just fly a perfect square instead of aiming for ideal targets, or try to use your bombs. In the real game keeping a non-hover flyer on the table and effective is easier said than done.

 Peregrine wrote:

Veskrashen wrote:
The bomber will take out more horde than an Iontide on average, for fewer points.

Why do you need anti-horde shooting in an army where your basic troops are excellent horde killers?

 chrisrawr wrote:
Yes and they may turn 90* each turn, and it takes 360* to complete a square and most boards have 4 90* angles meaning that most fliers can manage 4 90* turns...

Which only matters if you just fly a perfect square instead of aiming for ideal targets, or try to use your bombs. In the real game keeping a non-hover flyer on the table and effective is easier said than done.

Contrary to popular belief, tau firewarriors are better at killing MEQ and MCs, points-efficiently, than hordes. They also require the most protection from hordes, so getting rid of hordes is kind of important.

As for playing the tau bomber, I have over 10 games with it already, and have had little trouble keeping it points-positive, especially in conjunction with 2 pathfinder teams.

 Peregrine wrote:

Veskrashen wrote:
The bomber will take out more horde than an Iontide on average, for fewer points.

Why do you need anti-horde shooting in an army where your basic troops are excellent horde killers?

Probably because I play mech, which means that I don't disembark those basic troops until I need to, which means that being able to put large blasts into 50-man blobs is a good thing for me. Once they're whittled down to reasonable size, that's when I roll up and Mont'ka them with 27 FWs rapid firing with Storm of Fire. Not before.

Look, there's different ways to play this codex. What works well for one playstyle or archetypal build won't work for another type. It's very difficult to say "Tau flyers suck b/c they're not Vendettas or Helldrakes and everyone runs gunline foot Tau behind an Aegis" when not everyone takes CSM or IG allies, and not everyone plays foot gunline Tau.

Here's a thought exercise - *you* tell *us* how best to use them, and under what circumstances and lists they'd synergize the best. That way at least we get to hear something other than "they suck, and you suck for taking them".

One thing I will say is, fliers come on turn 2 at best. By turn 2 or 3, most assault hordes aim to be in your side of the field, so the fliers won't be able to do much turn 2, and if they come in later, even worse. I think this is the only thing that stops them being as effective as other options in the book for dealing with hordes, they can't be killing from turn 1, which you need to do against all but the slowest hordes, or against guardsmen, which I admit, they will do well against.

 Evileyes wrote:
One thing I will say is, fliers come on turn 2 at best. By turn 2 or 3, most assault hordes aim to be in your side of the field, so the fliers won't be able to do much turn 2, and if they come in later, even worse. I think this is the only thing that stops them being as effective as other options in the book for dealing with hordes, they can't be killing from turn 1, which you need to do against all but the slowest hordes, or against guardsmen, which I admit, they will do well against.

Faster hordes generally don't have 50+ wounds to chew through; those I feel I can probably take care of with my 2-3 Hammerheads and 3-4 Devilfish, all with SMS. Seekers of course are problematic with the potential of a rerollable 2++, but that causes problems for any list not just one that uses flyers. I don't really mind if they're on my side of the board, because as a mech player I don't have a set location I have to defend, and generally spend as much of the game mobile as possible after turn 1. That also reduces their ability to get into combat, b/c they're losing 6" of closure each turn.

Being able to affect the battle only beginning on Turn 2 at the earliest is an inherent weakness of flyers. That doesn't make Tau flyers any worse than any other flyer, and noone would say that Vultures suck against hordes because they can't gut them starting turn 1. If it's effective at it's role, or effectively fills a role given the inherent limitations of it's unit type, it's worth considering if it fits in your list IMO. The Tau flyers fit that role.

I'd really like to take one, but FA slots are so crowded that it is hard to make it work.

This is my main problem with this codex; it utterly lacks options to move anything from FA or Elites to Troops, making it impossible to include all the stuff I'd like to have. (This is bad planning on GWs part if they want to sell me a lot of models.)

That actually makes it a more interesting codex in my eyes (aside from the narrow choices in the Troop section). It forces you to actually make sacrifices in your FOC to get the capabilities you need.

I find it easier to build lists when I stop looking at wanting to get Pathfinders or a Riptide into the list, and start looking at wanting to get X markerlight hits per turn on average, or needing to throw out Y AP1/2/3 wounds reliably, or needing to kill Z number of orks / guardsmen / gaunts / etc within 2 turns to prevent a blob from reaching me. Once you start doing that, several more possibilities present themselves in terms of lists.

I agree that the FA slots are overcrowded and wish there was that kind of choice in the troop section. Especially the changes to kroot.

Back to the fliers, one of the main things that bugs me is the weak armour that they both have. For the points, I find 11/10/10 to be too flimsy.

Barracuda. Just look at it.

 Elliotminorkid wrote:
Back to the fliers, one of the main things that bugs me is the weak armour that they both have. For the points, I find 11/10/10 to be too flimsy.

They're no worse than Night / Doom Scythes or Razorwings / DE Bombers, or Stormtalons for that matter. People have just gotten too spoiled by Vendettas and Helldrakes. See above re: "if it's not a Vendetta or Helldrake it sucks and you suck for taking it".

Veskrashen wrote:

 Elliotminorkid wrote:
Back to the fliers, one of the main things that bugs me is the weak armour that they both have. For the points, I find 11/10/10 to be too flimsy.

They're no worse than Night / Doom Scythes or Razorwings / DE Bombers, or Stormtalons for that matter. People have just gotten too spoiled by Vendettas and Helldrakes. See above re: "if it's not a Vendetta or Helldrake it sucks and you suck for taking it".

The Night and Doom Scythe both have AV11 all around, so yes, the Tau flyer survivability is worse.

 n0t_u wrote:
Barracuda. Just look at it.

Yes. It looks better, has more shots and most likely a s8 ap3 overload pie plate against ground targets. It's also comparably cheap if slightly less durable (-1 av front and -1 hullpoint).

Oh and it also has two 360° burst cannons to mess up other flyers rear armor

 Sasori wrote:
The Night and Doom Scythe both have AV11 all around, so yes, the Tau flyer survivability is worse.

What I get for arguing on the internet at work, I guess.

 n0t_u wrote:
Barracuda. Just look at it.

Its nice but I imagine its even more expensive (points and money) than the new fliers. Also as it was made with older versions of the rules in mind, I imagine its not as potent as it once was. Having said that, Ive never used one, just going on hear-say,

 Elliotminorkid wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Barracuda. Just look at it.

Its nice but I imagine its even more expensive (points and money) than the new fliers. Also as it was made with older versions of the rules in mind, I imagine its not as potent as it once was. Having said that, Ive never used one, just going on hear-say,

The Barracuda is I *think* 130 points (in IA Aero I believe, IA has it at ~200 or so?), comes fit with an Ion Cannon, TL missile pod, and sponson burst cannons for shooting at flanks and such. It is supersonic and agile and can DS. Sadly, it is somewhat less durable stat-wise than the Razorshark, being AV10 all around and with 2 HP. Still, at comparable cost the fighter comes equipped with more S7 shots (TL missile pod > missile pod) with some of those being marine ID'ing AP3 pieplates, faster speeds and is overall going to be a better air superiority fighter. What it lacks is the Razorsharks firing arcs, and Supporting Fire.

However, it is by far a sexier model. It's essentially an Ionhead with a sexiness factor > 9000, and the fact that the model wasn't inducted into the codex was the most disappointing part of the new codex for me.

Actually... the Barracuda isn't a bad alternative. The Ion Cannon would give you the overload S8 AP3 blast, fixed forward unforunately. You also get the TLMPs to go with it, and can take some Seekers as well for extra points. IIRC it's only 135 in the Aeronautica base. And, of course, you get those two turreted BCs that ignore cover due to the auto targeting special rule.

It's more fragile than either of the Codex flyers, though.