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Regarding the FAQ That Changed All Things

It states that you can only apply wounds as far as you can reach, but does not state whether it means the reach of the weapon fired or the unit as a whole, nor if it's the maximum range the chosen weapon or the effective range.

IE: (and I'm not entirely sure if anyone can actually take this loadout, but that's besides the point, just imagine they can.)

1) If a unit of sisters has 2 flamers and some bolters, their 2 flamers make 4 hits on 2 models that the flamer can reach in a unit of 10 firewarriors. Assuming all of them wound and kill, will you only kill 2 models, or will the extra range of the bolters allow you to place wounds from the flamer as far as the bolters can reach?

2) If a unit of sisters with all bolters shoots with rapid fire at a unit of firewarriors, will I only be able to take away casualties up to the 12" away, or is my maximum weapon range counted allowing me to remove casualties up to 24" away?

Here's the FAQ to which I alude:

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.

 Purifier wrote:

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.

I bolded the part you missed. If the models were within range of any shooting model when To Hit rolls were made, they can be allocated to.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.

I bolded the part you missed. If the models were within range of any shooting model when To Hit rolls were made, they can be allocated to.

yeah, I obviously didn't miss it, as my question pertains to the reading of that particular passage.

If you are 15" away, are you within the range of a unit of sisters using 24" range weapons firing at a mode that restricts you to 12" of range?
If you are not, but you maintain that you are if ONE weapon in the group would give that range to them all, can I then shoot normally with one of my 20 sisters and all of their ranges will be 24" for the woynd pool?

I had this argument with a friend of mine. I was saying that yes, it is dumb as hellen keller, but yes, those flamers will wound even though it's out of their range just because there are bolters. He was stalwartly against it, and I WANT to be on his side. I'm just not.

But what if you look at the reading? What does it MEAN being within range? What exactly determines the range? The max capacity of any weapon hanging on the back of a model that is currently using a different weapon? Would carrying a weapon with longer range make everyone able to wound further away? Or is it the range of each bullet fired?

Bolters still have a maximum range of 24" even when they are rapid-firing, so they can still kill things out to the 24" range.

They merely fire 2 shots within 12", it does not change their max range.

Jangustus wrote:
Bolters still have a maximum range of 24" even when they are rapid-firing, so they can still kill things out to the 24" range.

They merely fire 2 shots within 12", it does not change their max range.

Exactly. And that's what makes it confusing. Are they still within range of the firing models? Well.... you wouldn't say that they are within range when rolling to hit, would you?

 Purifier wrote:

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.

But what if you look at the reading? What does it MEAN being within range? What exactly determines the range? The max capacity of any weapon hanging on the back of a model that is currently using a different weapon? Would carrying a weapon with longer range make everyone able to wound further away? Or is it the range of each bullet fired?

If a target model is withing range of a (any) shooting model when to-hit rolls are made, a wound can be allocated to it.
This means that a missile launcher will "extend" the wound-range of a bolter past 24", rapid firing bolters can wound out to 24", etc.

If a model is not firing a weapon with a longer range (but simply carrying it) you can't use that range to determine anything - because it's only shooting models that determine range. The range of a model shooting a bolter (but carrying a lascannon) is 24".

It's really quite clear - to ask the questions you're asking you have to ignore huge swathes of the rulebook - how to target, how to measure range, how to resolve Rapid Fire weapons, etc.

I wonder how that would work with a blast template weapon?

Say for exmple, a full Tac squad with a plasma cannon are shooting at a 50 man blob unit of IG at 23" away, (only 5 of those IG are in 24" the rest are further back between 25-30").
The tac squad fires 9 Bolters and one Plasma Blast (36" range)that scatters to 20" away(too short to hit anything).

Assuming all 9 bolters hit, can 9 IG die, even though on 5 are in range of the bolters and the Blast weapon scattered too short?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.

But what if you look at the reading? What does it MEAN being within range? What exactly determines the range? The max capacity of any weapon hanging on the back of a model that is currently using a different weapon? Would carrying a weapon with longer range make everyone able to wound further away? Or is it the range of each bullet fired?

If a target model is withing range of a (any) shooting model when to-hit rolls are made, a wound can be allocated to it.
This means that a missile launcher will "extend" the wound-range of a bolter past 24", rapid firing bolters can wound out to 24", etc.

If a model is not firing a weapon with a longer range (but simply carrying it) you can't use that range to determine anything - because it's only shooting models that determine range. The range of a model shooting a bolter (but carrying a lascannon) is 24".

It's really quite clear - to ask the questions you're asking you have to ignore huge swathes of the rulebook - how to target, how to measure range, how to resolve Rapid Fire weapons, etc.

Aren't you ignoring your own conclusions when you say that a weapon firing at 12" range has a range of 24"? You're obviously not firing in a way that gives you a 24" inch range, just like how you're not firing with the lascannon doesn't give you that additional range, even though *the model* technically has that longer range... in some instances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:
I wonder how that would work with a blast template weapon?

Say for exmple, a full Tac squad with a plasma cannon are shooting at a 50 man blob unit of IG at 23" away, (only 5 of those IG are in 24" the rest are further back between 25-30").
The tac squad fires 9 Bolters and one Plasma Blast (36" range)that scatters to 20" away(too short to hit anything).

Assuming all 9 bolters hit, can 9 IG die, even though on 5 are in range of the bolters and the Blast weapon scattered too short?

According to how it's read, yes.

It's a god damn mess. Some weapons magically incur a longer "wounding range" for others.
The fact that it scattered to a place where it shouldn't just makes it even more confusing.

 Purifier wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.

But what if you look at the reading? What does it MEAN being within range? What exactly determines the range? The max capacity of any weapon hanging on the back of a model that is currently using a different weapon? Would carrying a weapon with longer range make everyone able to wound further away? Or is it the range of each bullet fired?

If a target model is withing range of a (any) shooting model when to-hit rolls are made, a wound can be allocated to it.
This means that a missile launcher will "extend" the wound-range of a bolter past 24", rapid firing bolters can wound out to 24", etc.

If a model is not firing a weapon with a longer range (but simply carrying it) you can't use that range to determine anything - because it's only shooting models that determine range. The range of a model shooting a bolter (but carrying a lascannon) is 24".

It's really quite clear - to ask the questions you're asking you have to ignore huge swathes of the rulebook - how to target, how to measure range, how to resolve Rapid Fire weapons, etc.

Aren't you ignoring your own conclusions when you say that a weapon firing at 12" range has a range of 24"? You're obviously not firing in a way that gives you a 24" inch range, just like how you're not firing with the lascannon doesn't give you that additional range, even though *the model* technically has that longer range... in some instances.

No, Bolters have 24" range not 12" range. At 12" they get a bonus shot, not a shorter range.

 Purifier wrote:
Aren't you ignoring your own conclusions when you say that a weapon firing at 12" range has a range of 24"? You're obviously not firing in a way that gives you a 24" inch range, just like how you're not firing with the lascannon doesn't give you that additional range, even though *the model* technically has that longer range... in some instances.

What weapon is firing?
What is the range of that weapon?

You're ignoring how to resolve Rapid Fire - hint, it doesn't change the weapon's range. It just adds an extra shot at 12" or under.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Aren't you ignoring your own conclusions when you say that a weapon firing at 12" range has a range of 24"? You're obviously not firing in a way that gives you a 24" inch range, just like how you're not firing with the lascannon doesn't give you that additional range, even though *the model* technically has that longer range... in some instances.

What weapon is firing?
What is the range of that weapon?

You're ignoring how to resolve Rapid Fire - hint, it doesn't change the weapon's range. It just adds an extra shot at 12" or under.

And why is that extra shot allowed to wound beyond its limits then?

 Purifier wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Aren't you ignoring your own conclusions when you say that a weapon firing at 12" range has a range of 24"? You're obviously not firing in a way that gives you a 24" inch range, just like how you're not firing with the lascannon doesn't give you that additional range, even though *the model* technically has that longer range... in some instances.

What weapon is firing?
What is the range of that weapon?

You're ignoring how to resolve Rapid Fire - hint, it doesn't change the weapon's range. It just adds an extra shot at 12" or under.

And why is that extra shot allowed to wound beyond its limits then?

And what limits would those be?

Obviously, in this case I'm trying to be the devil's advocate and I'm failing. gak sucks. I find the rule absolutely idiotic, but I agree with your reading of it.

I just feel like it's all very grey zone, and I'm looking for that good reason for making it either black or white.

The fact is that this rule doesn't exist in the rulebook. It was inserted through a poorly worded FAQ.

And as they did that, they added, to a permissive ruleset, a restrictive rule.

It says you are NOT allowed to put wounds on people that are out of the range of all of your models shooting.

First of all, it DOESN'T specify that this is out of range of the weapons being used at the time. It specifies "within the range of any of the models"

Well, he is within the range of my lascannon wielder... I'm just opting not to shoot that.

Second, if one thing is restrictive, why not the next? Why isn't this implying we make a wound pool for each type of weapon and resolve them individually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Aren't you ignoring your own conclusions when you say that a weapon firing at 12" range has a range of 24"? You're obviously not firing in a way that gives you a 24" inch range, just like how you're not firing with the lascannon doesn't give you that additional range, even though *the model* technically has that longer range... in some instances.

What weapon is firing?
What is the range of that weapon?

You're ignoring how to resolve Rapid Fire - hint, it doesn't change the weapon's range. It just adds an extra shot at 12" or under.

And why is that extra shot allowed to wound beyond its limits then?

And what limits would those be?

Actually, re-reading rapid fire, it doesn't add an extra shot. It replaces the longer shot with two shorter.
"A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away.
Alternatively, it can INSTEAD fire one shot over half the weapon's range away, up to the weapon's maximum range."

And I'd appreciate it if you left that gakky attitude outside, rigeld. Hint: saying "hint" is incredibly grating on anyone's nerves. Especially after you started with that acid comment about what I had missed in a tiny block of text.

 Purifier wrote:
It says you are NOT allowed to put wounds on people that are out of the range of all of your models shooting.

You're summarizing it incorrectly.
It says you're not allowed to allocate wounds to models that are out of range of all of your shooting models at the time of to-hit rolls.

First of all, it DOESN'T specify that this is out of range of the weapons being used at the time. It specifies "within the range of any of the models"

Well, he is within the range of my lascannon wielder... I'm just opting not to shoot that.

What's the range of a shooting model that is shooting a bolter instead of a lascannon?
Can his bolter shoot out to 25"?

Second, if one thing is restrictive, why not the next? Why isn't this implying we make a wound pool for each type of weapon and resolve them individually.

Because nothing alters the Wound Pool rules that say there's only one pool.

Actually, re-reading rapid fire, it doesn't add an extra shot. It replaces the longer shot with two shorter.
"A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away.
Alternatively, it can INSTEAD fire one shot over half the weapon's range away, up to the weapon's maximum range."

So Rapid Fire doesn't change a weapon's maximum range?

And I'd appreciate it if you left that gakky attitude outside, rigeld. Hint: saying "hint" is incredibly grating on anyone's nerves. Especially after you started with that acid comment about what I had missed in a tiny block of text.

Well, when you come across as ignoring plainly written rules I'm going to call you on it. You're looking for a whole where there isn't one and refusing to believe that there isn't one.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
It says you are NOT allowed to put wounds on people that are out of the range of all of your models shooting.

You're summarizing it incorrectly.
It says you're not allowed to allocate wounds to models that are out of range of all of your shooting models at the time of to-hit rolls.

I fail to see the difference.

rigeld2 wrote:

First of all, it DOESN'T specify that this is out of range of the weapons being used at the time. It specifies "within the range of any of the models"

Well, he is within the range of my lascannon wielder... I'm just opting not to shoot that.

What's the range of a shooting model that is shooting a bolter instead of a lascannon?
Can his bolter shoot out to 25"?

His lascannon can. So you're within range of that, even at the time of shooting. The range of his lascannon isn't different while shooting.

rigeld2 wrote:

Second, if one thing is restrictive, why not the next? Why isn't this implying we make a wound pool for each type of weapon and resolve them individually.

Because nothing alters the Wound Pool rules that say there's only one pool.

But you are allowed different groups within the pool.

rigeld2 wrote:

Actually, re-reading rapid fire, it doesn't add an extra shot. It replaces the longer shot with two shorter.
"A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away.
Alternatively, it can INSTEAD fire one shot over half the weapon's range away, up to the weapon's maximum range."

So Rapid Fire doesn't change a weapon's maximum range?

The FAQ says NOTHING about MAXIMUM. Those two shots have the range of "half the weapon's maximum range." Which in the case of a bolter is 12".

rigeld2 wrote:

And I'd appreciate it if you left that gakky attitude outside, rigeld. Hint: saying "hint" is incredibly grating on anyone's nerves. Especially after you started with that acid comment about what I had missed in a tiny block of text.

Well, when you come across as ignoring plainly written rules I'm going to call you on it. You're looking for a whole where there isn't one and refusing to believe that there isn't one.

The range of a bolter is never altered. It fires one more shot when the firing model is less than half the maximum range of the weapon away from the target unit

A model firing a bolter instead of a lascannon has a range of 24", as that is the range of THAT firing model at the time you shoot.

Not sure how either concept is difficult to get. You are indeed not doing well at looking for a hole that isnt ther e0- the rule is actually very clear, shocking given it was an FAQ and not an errata

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The range of a bolter is never altered. It fires one more shot when the firing model is less than half the maximum range of the weapon away from the target unit

And I just quoted the rulebook where it says that isn't true. The longer shot is replaced by two shorter shots, at half the maximum range.

The maximum range of the bolter is never altered, but the range is.

Why are you ignoring that?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
A model firing a bolter instead of a lascannon has a range of 24", as that is the range of THAT firing model at the time you shoot.

That's fair enough, I can't find a flaw with it.

 Purifier wrote:

Which is clearly impossible to do without adding a little ad hominem to it. I mean what use is it being right if you can't make someone else feel bad about it.

Heh... I would just say that comes with the YMDC territory... Plenty of snarkiness (and I'm not innocent of that myself) here. Is it in any way helpful? No... Is it rude and annoying? Yes... Just remember there is the ignore function if a certain person or persons annoy you too much... Of course then you run the risk of missing out on some brilliant revelations, which everyone can have at certain times I guess...

 Purifier wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The range of a bolter is never altered. It fires one more shot when the firing model is less than half the maximum range of the weapon away from the target unit

And I just quoted the rulebook where it says that isn't true. The longer shot is replaced by two shorter shots, at half the maximum range.

The maximum range of the bolter is never altered, but the range is.

Why are you ignoring that?

Because that isnt true?

"A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away. "

The target is at half maximum range. The range of the weapon is never altered. The range of the weapon is what the FAQ talks about.

Agree with Nos, the max range of the weapon never changes... even when he is shooting at things closer. The range at which he gets an extra shot is not the weapon's max range at any time.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The range of a bolter is never altered. It fires one more shot when the firing model is less than half the maximum range of the weapon away from the target unit

And I just quoted the rulebook where it says that isn't true. The longer shot is replaced by two shorter shots, at half the maximum range.

The maximum range of the bolter is never altered, but the range is.

Why are you ignoring that?

Because that isnt true?

"A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away. "

The target is at half maximum range. The range of the weapon is never altered. The range of the weapon is what the FAQ talks about.

The MAXIMUM range is never altered. You're making the mistake of assuming range == maximum range.

The range of the weapon while firing the rappidest of fire is described as being "half of the weapon's maximum range."

That's how far you can reach. It's really very much akin to having two weapons, when you fire a rapid fire weapon. One of them cannot be used at over 12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beast wrote:
Agree with Nos, the max range of the weapon never changes... even when he is shooting at things closer. The range at which he gets an extra shot is not the weapon's max range at any time.

I fail to see how that is conclusive when the FAQ doesn't mention MAXIMUM range.

Wow!!!

The FAQ your referring to was asked in a dumb fashion and answered in a dumb fashion. Plain and simply all it did was make it confusing for the simple minded people.

It sounds like from this thread however your just here to argue some silly points for arguments sake. There's some pretty level headed dudes here who answered it for you and yet you still argue. To that I say play it however you want to in your own games.

 Purifier wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
It says you are NOT allowed to put wounds on people that are out of the range of all of your models shooting.

You're summarizing it incorrectly.
It says you're not allowed to allocate wounds to models that are out of range of all of your shooting models at the time of to-hit rolls.

I fail to see the difference.

I bolded the difference. Your summation included all of a model's potential shooting. Mine is all of the models that are actually shooting.

rigeld2 wrote:

First of all, it DOESN'T specify that this is out of range of the weapons being used at the time. It specifies "within the range of any of the models"

Well, he is within the range of my lascannon wielder... I'm just opting not to shoot that.

What's the range of a shooting model that is shooting a bolter instead of a lascannon?
Can his bolter shoot out to 25"?

His lascannon can. So you're within range of that, even at the time of shooting. The range of his lascannon isn't different while shooting.

Please re-read the targeting rules. The only relevant range is the weapon(s) you're choosing to shoot. If you're choosing not to shoot the lascannon, the model does not have a 48" range.

rigeld2 wrote:

Second, if one thing is restrictive, why not the next? Why isn't this implying we make a wound pool for each type of weapon and resolve them individually.

Because nothing alters the Wound Pool rules that say there's only one pool.

But you are allowed different groups within the pool.

Absolutely. And nothing says that the groups are based on range - just STR, AP, and special rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

Actually, re-reading rapid fire, it doesn't add an extra shot. It replaces the longer shot with two shorter.
"A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away.
Alternatively, it can INSTEAD fire one shot over half the weapon's range away, up to the weapon's maximum range."

So Rapid Fire doesn't change a weapon's maximum range?

The FAQ says NOTHING about MAXIMUM.

... it does. It says "not within range any of the shooting models". What is the weapon's range? Since Rapid Fire does not change the weapon's range and we know a Bolter's range is 24", you use 24" for this purpose. It doesn't use the word "maximum" but it doesn't need to.

Lungpickle wrote:
Wow!!!

The FAQ your referring to was asked in a dumb fashion and answered in a dumb fashion. Plain and simply all it did was make it confusing for the simple minded people.

It sounds like from this thread however your just here to argue some silly points for arguments sake. There's some pretty level headed dudes here who answered it for you and yet you still argue. To that I say play it however you want to in your own games.

I'm here to try and get some clarity. What it has turned into is people arguing that max range is the same as range. Which isn't true.
And you are hardly the person to decide who is or isn't level headed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

... it does. It says "not within range any of the shooting models". What is the weapon's range? Since Rapid Fire does not change the weapon's range and we know a Bolter's range is 24", you use 24" for this purpose. It doesn't use the word "maximum" but it doesn't need to.

It does change the weapon's range.
It does NOT change the weapon's stated maximum range, but it does change its effective range, to a very clearly stated "half of maximum"
(or, at least, it changes the MODELS effective range, even if the weapon's stays the same.)

 Purifier wrote:

I'm here to try and get some clarity. What it has turned into is people arguing that max range is the same as range. Which isn't true.

I think you are making a distinction where none is needed or stipulated. Bolters have a range that they can wound models at. That value is 24". You are allowed to fire twice if you are at half that value, but it doesn't change the range at which it can wound a model... That is how we are reading RAW. If you disagree, that's fine. Go forth and play the way you see it. It's all good.

Beast wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

I'm here to try and get some clarity. What it has turned into is people arguing that max range is the same as range. Which isn't true.

I think you are making a distinction where none is needed or stipulated. Bolters have a range that they can wound models at. That value is 24". You are allowed to fire twice if you are at half that value, but it doesn't change the range at which it can wound a model... That is how we are reading RAW. If you disagree, that's fine. Go forth and play the way you see it. It's all good.

I'm just having a really hard time getting my mind around the concept of a model's range behing halved and still staying the same.

They are choosing a mode of fire that cannot be chosen beyond 12", and yet you are saying that they still have a range of 24".

No matter how I twist it around, I cannot make 12" be 24".

Maybe this will help clarity...

"A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away.
Alternatively, it can instead fire one shot over half the weapon's range away, up to the weapon's maximum range."

The scond sentence says "it can fire one shot over HALF THE WEAPON'S RANGE away..." (my emphasis) See how they use the term 'range' here? Even when referring to shooting over 12" (half the weapon's range) they interchange the terms 'maximum range' and 'range' as the same thing.

I missed the ambiguity of the rule, and yes, if range and max range are the same thing then that renders my argument invalid.

 Purifier wrote:

1) If a unit of sisters has 2 flamers and some bolters, their 2 flamers make 4 hits on 2 models that the flamer can reach in a unit of 10 firewarriors. Assuming all of them wound and kill, will you only kill 2 models, or will the extra range of the bolters allow you to place wounds from the flamer as far as the bolters can reach?

2) If a unit of sisters with all bolters shoots with rapid fire at a unit of firewarriors, will I only be able to take away casualties up to the 12" away, or is my maximum weapon range counted allowing me to remove casualties up to 24" away?

1) From what I can tell, if the flamers themselves were only able to hit two models, they would only be able to kill those two.

2) "Rapid Fire" is a mode of firing that allows an extra shot at units within half-range of the gun. It does not, however, change the actual range of the gun. All it does is allow you to fire more.

Then the crux of the original argument is, do wounds in the wound pool keep their range characteristic just like they retain their S and AP and special rules (like ID), or is that thrown out when they're placed in the wound pool?

I think pre-FAQ this was true, and I think even still that's true, but the FAQ tells us to ignore everything but the longest range when resolving the wound pool. Something like a conversion beamer in some strange long-range unit firing at t5 multiwound 71 inches (s10 range minus 1 inch, whatever that happens to be) away would be interesting in its resolution rules-wise, though I admit to being foggy on that particular weapon's rules.