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So how do you handle HellTurkeys? I face them regularly, and they always do massive damage to me.

This last game, it killed 10 space marines - 3 devs with missile lauchers, a Sarge, and 6 squaddies - on the turn it came in. Killed 20 Marines total, as it lasted 3 rounds before dying (went into hover). Vector strike plus torrent baleflamer is downright nasty.

I can't ignore the thing, as it will eat most of my guys easily. I can't kill the thing - my quadcannon can't seem to do anything, and all my other shots (meltas, lascannons, missles) don't seem to either. What are my other options?

(Vanilla Marines, by the way. Usually about 1k - 1.5k matches)

Hyperios launchers? I play Nids so I am not the foremost expert but my friend is running hyperios launchers as his answer to fliers. Give this a try!

The Heldrake, as very meticulously explained on a podcast by 11th company called "Heldrake does as Heldrake pleases", outright ruins many builds. Straight up ruins them.

A possible counter for this might be your own air list. However, this may not be acceptable as a TAC list.

Other thoughts from the crowd?

As Orks I ignore them. For Space Marines: Rifle Dreads? Terminators? Deploy in opposite sides so they can only kill one.

If your list cannot ignore Hell Drakes. Then bring your own anti air. Its the only solution. And one quad gun is not enough anti air against even one hell drake.

Being Storm Talons, Storm Ravens, or ally other factions for other anti air.

Your options are very few actually. Either you bring a list that ignores fliers like the Helldrake, or you bring a list that has anti air elements so that it can deal with fliers.

rifle dreads are the best bet with vanilla if you dont have those pricy flier models. You can put one in a drop pod and reserve it to turn two and hope turkey comes in and you're second (lots of variables) then drop it in a spot to shoot rear armour

They're a meta changer, much like the riptide or like DW. They're so strong and uncounterable by traditional builds that the entire meta must adjust to account for them. Without heavy anti-air you cannot run foot SM lists because the risk of being flamed is too high Likewise it puts a damper on biker armies since they melt biker marines just as easily.

You either take good anti air, or you build a list that doesn't care about them.

And the Hades autocannon will wreck your mech list's gak in a hurry. Essentially, if it isn't a multiwound monstrous creature, a heavy tank, or a TEQ if the helldrake wants something dead it is going to be dead. Also, try to have more than one quadcannon/icarus las cannon, they're useful enough on their own merits and are invaluable for gunning down the hell turkeys before it can offer something of value a choice between "original recipe autocannon" or "extra crispy fire breath."

MM/Las Stormravens are pretty solid for taking them down if you can get up close enough.

Skyshield and DAngels Allies with Flakk Devs is also another option.

Stay in your rhinos. It will help.

Bring strom talons. You can zip past the helldrake and shoot it in the rear.
A stromraven also does wonders for killing helldrakes. You can also stick a squad in the stormraven to lower your initial board presence.

Staying in your candy-coated shells and using flyers to kill helldrakes will make it much harder for your opponent to fry your entire army.

Skyshield landing pad and a middle finger raised up to the sky at them while the rest of their army on the ground evaporates.

You can ally with IG; grab cheap HQ/troops and a Vendetta, at least. A Hydra would help, too

If you have a skyshield fueled with all of your troops on it you are not going to be shooting very much. Your LOS to ground troops will be hindered for everyone except the front rank.

 Kain wrote:
Also, try to have more than one quadcannon/icarus las cannon

You only get 1 Fortification, which means 1 Icarus/Quad Gun.

Heldrakes are a pain to deal with. Your best bet is to bring your own flyers, particularly Storm Talons to zip around their rear armor and light up that AV10. Just be aware that a single Vector Strike is likely to scrap it. Other than that, fortifications are doable, fielding more men and spreading out can help, as can killing off the CSM if they've sunk too many points into flyers.

 Chumbalaya wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Also, try to have more than one quadcannon/icarus las cannon

You only get 1 Fortification, which means 1 Icarus/Quad Gun.

Heldrakes are a pain to deal with. Your best bet is to bring your own flyers, particularly Storm Talons to zip around their rear armor and light up that AV10. Just be aware that a single Vector Strike is likely to scrap it. Other than that, fortifications are doable, fielding more men and spreading out can help, as can killing off the CSM if they've sunk too many points into flyers.

Wait...does that mean...

Son of a bitch I knew there was something fishy about that double fortress of redemption build.

Also, I think there's a forgeworld space marine anti-air unit somewhere. Lemme find it.

Surprised no one mentions using Multiple Land Raiders.

Run 2-3, keep your scoring units safe inside while you take pot shots at the Heldrakes.

It has the added benefit to being strong against tau as well.

Just be careful against Necron/IG matchups.

icraus LC, libby, prescience.

So how do you handle HellTurkeys? I face them regularly, and they always do massive damage to me.

This last game, it killed 10 space marines - 3 devs with missile lauchers, a Sarge, and 6 squaddies - on the turn it came in. Killed 20 Marines total, as it lasted 3 rounds before dying (went into hover). Vector strike plus torrent baleflamer is downright nasty.

How did you let it hit 10 Marines? If you spread to 2" coherency, you should be losing 3-4.

I can't ignore the thing, as it will eat most of my guys easily. I can't kill the thing - my quadcannon can't seem to do anything, and all my other shots (meltas, lascannons, missles) don't seem to either. What are my other options?

(Vanilla Marines, by the way. Usually about 1k - 1.5k matches)

Stormtalons are cheap, though they don't really pack a ton of anti-Helldrake weaponry. A single Stormraven isn't a terrible investment (TL MM, Lascannon, missiles). I tend to think that Marines should always ally with IG (which overdone, it is pretty important). If so, you get blobs that can limit Drake movement and a Vendetta.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Stay in your rhinos. It will help.

This will help you lose 10 marines in a hurry if that's what you intention is? Vector Strike Rhino, wreck or destroy Rhino, shoot flames out of arse, profit? Have you seen a Helldrake on the table?

A Rhino or Razorback shouldn't die to single vector strike, and in my experience they don't. However, it will die quite often to a volley from a havoc team with autocannons or a tri-las Chaos pred.

 General_Chaos wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Stay in your rhinos. It will help.

This will help you lose 10 marines in a hurry if that's what you intention is? Vector Strike Rhino, wreck or destroy Rhino, shoot flames out of arse, profit? Have you seen a Helldrake on the table?

As was said above while this can happen it should not happen very often. Vector stike averages 3 S7 hits, which ammount to 1-2 glance or pen results (so unlikely to wreck it through glancing, but if you do then they guys inside get a 3" disembark and can spread out using that move) of which you have a 1/6 chance to explode the vehicle. I would be more concerned with other units popping the rhino for the drake. Certainly a better chance of surviving than standing on foot. That said even on foot it is fairly easy to spread out enough to limit the drake to 3 or 4 hits with the bale flamer.

If you have 3 level ruins you can always stand on top of said ruins (heldrakes can only hit 2 levels (bottom and middle) I believe or stand on the bottom close to the wall if it blocks LOS.

Other things that help,

2+ saves, so ICs at the front of squads can tank wounds for the squad.

Large Bases, things like bikes when used with 2" coherency can really limit the damage.

Limiting Vector strike by landing zone denial (if he cannot pass over a unit and place the model he cannot vector strike.

Mobility, if you can manage to only get hit once and then move under the drake (forcing him to move away or hover, and if it hovers it is much easier to kill) then it minimizes casualties

Land Raiders, drakes cannot kill them

your own flyers to help tackle them. Position yourself so if he wants to kill more squads he exposes rear armor to your threats (this is how I dealt with 2 last weekend.)

 Kain wrote:

 Chumbalaya wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Also, try to have more than one quadcannon/icarus las cannon

You only get 1 Fortification, which means 1 Icarus/Quad Gun.

Heldrakes are a pain to deal with. Your best bet is to bring your own flyers, particularly Storm Talons to zip around their rear armor and light up that AV10. Just be aware that a single Vector Strike is likely to scrap it. Other than that, fortifications are doable, fielding more men and spreading out can help, as can killing off the CSM if they've sunk too many points into flyers.

Wait...does that mean...

Son of a bitch I knew there was something fishy about that double fortress of redemption build.

Also, I think there's a forgeworld space marine anti-air unit somewhere. Lemme find it.

Double force org? I'd really like to see two FoRs for humor's sake.

I play daemons, as such I either have huge numbers, or huge monsters, both of which shrug off the turkey, especially with a 5+ invuln standard. So I ignore it.

Poor marine armies xD

 General_Chaos wrote:
This will help you lose 10 marines in a hurry if that's what you intention is? Vector Strike Rhino, wreck or destroy Rhino, shoot flames out of arse, profit? Have you seen a Helldrake on the table?

Many times. In fact I play helldrakes, usually 2 in a CSM list, or 1 in a CD list. I probably have seen more table time with helldrakes than most people because of this.

A unit in a rhino will actually be a pain to deal with. Run the math, you need to dedicate two vector strikes to kill a rhino reliably. Sure, you might occasionally get lucky, but you need to expect two vector strikes to destroy a rhino.

Then you have the C:SM player combat squad out, putting half his squad within 3" of one hatch and half within 3" of the other. The template is not that big. Its not likely you will get all 10.
Your not likely to explode the vehicle with vector strikes -- your much more likely to just 'wreck' it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
your own flyers to help tackle them. Position yourself so if he wants to kill more squads he exposes rear armor to your threats (this is how I dealt with 2 last weekend.)

+1 to this. You only need to survive the helldrakes long enough to take them out. That's why you need tools to complete this. Luckly C:SM have those tools.

Plus one to labmouse42. I usually run 2 in my CSM lists as well. Vector strikes aren't reliable enough to pop rhinos but they can help. Usually coming onto the board, it's front line stuff that has to worry. Stack stuff behind your important stuff to prevent placement or to force show rear armor to shooting spam. Otherwise disregard. It's not worth taking snap shots at a flyer when you could throw fired onto a scoring unit, especially against FA/SA. The heldrakes hurt, but they don't win games alone.

With every codex that comes out, I end up liking Land Raiders more and more. I think a double or triple raider build would be game over for a triple heldrake list. His turkeys would amount to nearly nothing all game and could be ignored. They also have the added bonus of being immune to tesla destructor spam also.

The issue with Land Raider Spam, is that they don't really kill much either, and while they are good against Heldrakes, they can be killed by other units easily enough.

Breng77 is correct. Earlier this year I was running triple CSM land raiders. I found it very durable, but did not provide much killyness in its own right.

In an 1850 game you can even run triple helldrake and triple landraiders. I ran this for a number of Adepticon practice games and RTTs.
Do you know how it worked out? OK. Not nearly as good as it sounds. Its a great 'rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock' list, but will lose when it meets the wrong army, or you get a single bad round of dice. There is a reason I took daemons with CSM allies to Adepticon and not triple land raider / triple helldrake.

If you're investing the points into triple land raider you might as well go all the way and pick up abaddon and some chosen troops. Shoot for 2-3 turns then get assaults in. Not optimal against some opponents but works well enough of the time.

I'm wondering how the Icarus Lascannon would work for those who really fear the Heldrake. Everyone takes the quad gun, but I feel the single shot lascannon has the better chance.

First, with a 96" range there is no where any flyer can show up where you probably can't shoot at it. It is possible to be out of range with only a 48" weapon.

Second - and I realize this is dependent on what some people are willing to do, but if your going lascannon you need to rock the BS5 firer somewhere. If your army doesn't have one, the SW have a wolf guard battle leader for 70ish points that can ally in (and its not like grey hunters are a crap troop choice).

Anyway onto the damage. Hitting on a 2+, Penning on a 4+, killing out right on a 5+ or even killing its gun is almost good enough of a result, thus a 50% chance of something good happening (but I left out the weapon destroyed result for these numbers). Now, even with its 5+ inv. save, you still end up with an 18% chance of killing it on the turn it comes in and every turn afterwards.

However, the Quad gun is much worse. - Assuming BS5 (to keep things fair, but I think BS4 or less is more realistic just due to how the game is played) is a .07% chance of killing it outright. Because even if your getting 4 hits, your only penning on a 6, and only exploding on a 6, and the thing still has its 5+ inv. save.