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Scarabs will reduce the Armor save of a model for each unsaved wound. Usually this is not an issue as most models have 1 wound. But when dealing with units that have more than one wound, say a Riptide. Whould that model need to roll for each wound 1 at a time? Should one be failed, the save is reduced for all future saves. How does FNP interact with this?

 Budikah wrote:
Scarabs will reduce the Armor save of a model for each unsaved wound. Usually this is not an issue as most models have 1 wound. But when dealing with units that have more than one wound, say a Riptide. Whould that model need to roll for each wound 1 at a time? Should one be failed, the save is reduced for all future saves. How does FNP interact with this?

FNP does nothing, first off.

Secondly, the suit would suffer unsaved wounds FIRST, and THEN if it's still alive it suffers from entropic strike and from that point on in the game the suit is SV -.

So, your scarabs must first cause unsaved wounds on the suit but if fails even one armor save then it loses it's armor save for the rest of game. Also note, the rule says "If a models suffers ONE OR MORE UNSAVED WOUNDS from a weapon or model with this special rule...."

Also, wounds are "always" taken one at a time. There is no such thing as simultaneous wounding. Only simultaneous shooting/attacking.

Alrighty... let me clarify a bit with a situation.

5 Scarabs charge a Riptide
They score 15 hits and then out of those 15 they also have 5 successful wounds.

Riptide starts to roll to save against those wounds - does it roll them all at once or one at a time? If the first of those 5 saves was failed would the 4 other saves be affected by the Entropic Strike?

How about in a multiple combat?

I'm thinking that the Saves must be rolled separately because as soon as one fails the rest of the rolls are subject to the effect of Entropic Strike.

 Kevin949 wrote:
FNP does nothing, first off.

Secondly, the suit would suffer unsaved wounds FIRST, and THEN if it's still alive it suffers from entropic strike and from that point on in the game the suit is SV -.

So, your scarabs must first cause unsaved wounds on the suit but

Wouldn't passing FnP count the wound as "saved" (page 35 BRB) and thus not cause the armour to fall off?
Secondly, wounds in close combat are allocated one-at-a-time (page 25 BRB), as opposed to rolling saves in one go and then allocating (same-save shooting method, page 15 BRB).

Quanar wrote:
Wouldn't passing FnP count the wound as "saved" (page 35 BRB) and thus not cause the armour to fall off?

That is correct.

Secondly, wounds in close combat are allocated one-at-a-time (page 25 BRB), as opposed to rolling saves in one go and then allocating (same-save shooting method, page 15 BRB).

This is not always correct. you can use the same save method if it is a single models unit as all of the saves will be the same.

Quanar wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
FNP does nothing, first off.

Secondly, the suit would suffer unsaved wounds FIRST, and THEN if it's still alive it suffers from entropic strike and from that point on in the game the suit is SV -.

So, your scarabs must first cause unsaved wounds on the suit but

Wouldn't passing FnP count the wound as "saved" (page 35 BRB) and thus not cause the armour to fall off?
Secondly, wounds in close combat are allocated one-at-a-time (page 25 BRB), as opposed to rolling saves in one go and then allocating (same-save shooting method, page 15 BRB).

Based on the following FAQ, the answer would be no, you still lose your armor save:

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: In assault, what comes first – Feel No Pain rolls or the roll to
activate a Force weapon? (p37)
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll.

Since both Force and ES are triggered by an unsaved wound.

Feel no Pain isn't a save so it doesn't stop the armor loss.

 Mythra wrote:
Feel no Pain isn't a save so it doesn't stop the armor loss.

Agreed, and in answer to the OP's question about the Riptide, yes you would want to roll your saves on the Riptide one by one, as a single failed save would result in the model losing it's armor save, changing the way you're going to roll whatever wounds remain in the wound pool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also as a side note in regards to the question about FNP I leave this section of the BRB FAQ:

Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit
have the Feel No Pain specialrule then the Mixed Saves
method of Wound allocation should always be used for
allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel
No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed
save.”

So a Riptide with FNP should roll all it's saves one by one whether it's confronted with Scarabs or not.

Quanar wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
FNP does nothing, first off.

Secondly, the suit would suffer unsaved wounds FIRST, and THEN if it's still alive it suffers from entropic strike and from that point on in the game the suit is SV -.

So, your scarabs must first cause unsaved wounds on the suit but

Wouldn't passing FnP count the wound as "saved" (page 35 BRB) and thus not cause the armour to fall off?
Secondly, wounds in close combat are allocated one-at-a-time (page 25 BRB), as opposed to rolling saves in one go and then allocating (same-save shooting method, page 15 BRB).

You are referencing fast rolling, and while it's an allowed method of rolling it does not change the fact that allocating wounds and rolling saves is "always" done one at a time. The method in which you roll for it does not change the actual sequence of events. This is also why if there is something that triggers on unsaved wounds or some other special occurrence, it's always a good idea to eschew fast rolling or to use it sparingly in those situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alienvalentine wrote:

 Mythra wrote:
Feel no Pain isn't a save so it doesn't stop the armor loss.

Agreed, and in answer to the OP's question about the Riptide, yes you would want to roll your saves on the Riptide one by one, as a single failed save would result in the model losing it's armor save, changing the way you're going to roll whatever wounds remain in the wound pool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also as a side note in regards to the question about FNP I leave this section of the BRB FAQ:

Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit
have the Feel No Pain specialrule then the Mixed Saves
method of Wound allocation should always be used for
allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel
No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed
save.”

So a Riptide with FNP should roll all it's saves one by one whether it's confronted with Scarabs or not.

That's a good point, a model with FNP is supposed to roll one at a time anyway.

 Mythra wrote:
Feel no Pain isn't a save so it doesn't stop the armor loss.

FNP is not a save, but it does create a saved wound.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mythra wrote:
Feel no Pain isn't a save so it doesn't stop the armor loss.

FNP is not a save, but it does create a saved wound.

No, a model that passes the FNP test ignores the effect of an unsaved wound. Ergo, any effects that are triggered by one or more models taking an unsaved would are triggered regardless of whether or not that model or models passed the FNP test, Soul Blaze, or Entropic Strike for example, they just don't take the wound.

 alienvalentine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mythra wrote:
Feel no Pain isn't a save so it doesn't stop the armor loss.

FNP is not a save, but it does create a saved wound.

No, a model that passes the FNP test ignores the effect of an unsaved wound. Ergo, any effects that are triggered by one or more models taking an unsaved would are triggered regardless of whether or not that model or models passed the FNP test, Soul Blaze, or Entropic Strike for example, they just don't take the wound.

What do you mean no? Have you read the FNP rules?

If the FNP roll is successful then "the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved." (P.35 FNP rules) If we treat the wound as saved, then we have a saved wound and not an unsaved wound.

rigeld2 wrote:

Based on the following FAQ, the answer would be no, you still lose your armor save:

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: In assault, what comes first – Feel No Pain rolls or the roll to
activate a Force weapon? (p37)
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll.

Since both Force and ES are triggered by an unsaved wound.

DeathReaper wrote:

 alienvalentine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mythra wrote:
Feel no Pain isn't a save so it doesn't stop the armor loss.

FNP is not a save, but it does create a saved wound.

No, a model that passes the FNP test ignores the effect of an unsaved wound. Ergo, any effects that are triggered by one or more models taking an unsaved would are triggered regardless of whether or not that model or models passed the FNP test, Soul Blaze, or Entropic Strike for example, they just don't take the wound.

What do you mean no? Have you read the FNP rules?

If the FNP roll is successful then "the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved." (P.35 FNP rules) If we treat the wound as saved, then we have a saved wound and not an unsaved wound.

Care to address then why Force Weapons are allowed before FNP is rolled for?

Because GW decided to put in an FaQ that tells us that force weapons are allowed before FNP.

That is the only reason Force Weapons work before FNP is rolled.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because GW decided to put in an FaQ that tells us that force weapons are allowed before FNP.

That is the only reason Force Weapons work before FNP is rolled.

Ya, I suppose it couldn't possibly be the order of operations that has anything to do with it.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because GW decided to put in an FaQ that tells us that force weapons are allowed before FNP.

That is the only reason Force Weapons work before FNP is rolled.

Ya, I suppose it couldn't possibly be the order of operations that has anything to do with it.

Then why is there an FaQ?

To clarify the situation. Before the FAQ, I agreed the FNP "revoked" the unsaved wound and had to go before Force Weapon activation or Entropic Strike. Now that there's the FAQ on Force Weapons, I agree that FNP doesn't save you from them or Entropic Strike, as both of them trigger off the same thing.

Could it be they were clarifying order of operation?

Gravmyr wrote:
Could it be they were clarifying order of operation?

I wish they would have been that straightforward about it, but alas we get the usual gak that GW produces.

True.

So do Boneswords ignore FNP as well then ?

If they cause Instant Death, sure.

So back to the original question:

Let's say he has 5 wounds.
Does he roll armour saves at the same time?
Or does he roll the first, and if that fails, he can't get armour-saves for the other 4?

In 6th ed you ALWAYS roll saves one at a time.

The ONLY time you can roll them together is when it makes no mechanical difference to the outcome. Like when you're rolling 5 saves for a squad of 5 guys who all have the same save, and there's no FNP in play and no characters in the squad. Rolling together is purely a convenience allowed when it has no mechanical impact.

Bloodhorror wrote:
So do Boneswords ignore FNP as well then ?

If they fail their LD test, yes.

 Mannahnin wrote:
In 6th ed you ALWAYS roll saves one at a time.

The ONLY time you can roll them together is when it makes no mechanical difference to the outcome. Like when you're rolling 5 saves for a squad of 5 guys who all have the same save, and there's no FNP in play and no characters in the squad. Rolling together is purely a convenience allowed when it has no mechanical impact.

That's good news for Scarabs If the first hit comes through, the others can't be stopped by armour.
I didn't know that.

Another thing:
If I have 5 marines with all 5 FnP, does it have an impact if you roll them all at the time?
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how it makes any difference.

If they're 5 identical models, it probably doesn't matter.

The Force Weapon ID rule says "Immediately after an unsaved wound", that is why they FAQd it so FNP doesn't negate the wound to allow the Force ID effect.

Does the Entropic Strike say "immediately" like the Force Weapon rule? If not, it's not the same situation as a Force Weapon.
Then I think we must default to the 'whosever turn it is gets to choose what happens first'. So if the Scarabs assault the Riptide and cause an unsaved wound, then the Entropic Strike happens first. But if the Riptide makes all his saves in that Necron turn, then gets an unsaved wound in his own turn, he would get FNP.....and then probably still have his armor fall off.

In reality it doesn't but per the FAQ you have to roll each save and FNP individually

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because GW decided to put in an FaQ that tells us that force weapons are allowed before FNP.

That is the only reason Force Weapons work before FNP is rolled.

Ya, I suppose it couldn't possibly be the order of operations that has anything to do with it.

sadly it counts as being saved.

it doesnt make sense that a scarab would eat your armor, and then you wouldnt feel it, so your bug vomits the armor back onto its enemy seemingly whole, but hey! we dont play 40k for its realism now do we?