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Had a game with an opponent today using an unfamiliar (to me) build. This opponent made several rules errors that I'm fairly certain were blatant cheating. For example, he played his Annihilation Barges as fast skimmers (they are not), armed with two Twin-Linked Tesla Cannons (they have one and it's not twin-linked). Given that this person claims to play this army regularly, in tournaments, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this was completely intentional cheating on his part.

The question is, do you call this person out or let it go? It's a scumbag move, and I would have mentioned it at the time, but he conveniently forgot his codex and we lacked a store copy so I had no way to verify.

Did it change the outcome of the game? Did you win? I usually save the calling out of a cheater for games I won, otherwise it looks like sour grapes.

If there wasn't money on the line and the game is done just leave it be. It's not going to be worth the drama. But next time be on the look out, and call him out then and there when he tries to pull something. If he doesn't have his codex, don't play him next time. And you could have called out the Annihilation Barge thing as the profiles for vehicles are in the back of the main rulebook, assuming you had a copy of that available. I'd shy away from warning other people at this point, not before you've called him out in game.

To be fair to your opponent, the command barges are fast. And the annihilation barges have a twin linked tesla destructor(assault 4 str 7) AND a tesla or gauss canon(edit:not twin linked). So he was only sort of cheating as the real thing is super similar and he could have easily been mistaken. Best thing you could do is play him again and show him where he's wrong. If he argues and flips out just move on and play other people from now on.

Yes, call them out on it. Cheaters love it when you're reluctant to call them out on it, since it lets them keep doing it to other people. It's not like this is something ambiguous where you could make a legitimate argument either way, your opponent was clearly wrong and even a brief glance at the codex would prove it.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes, call them out on it. Cheaters love it when you're reluctant to call them out on it, since it lets them keep doing it to other people. It's not like this is something ambiguous where you could make a legitimate argument either way, your opponent was clearly wrong and even a brief glance at the codex would prove it.

The problem with doing it now is that all he has to do is say "I didn't say/do that, you must be mistaken." Especially when the reality is so close to what he tried, it'll be easy for him to fob off and anyone watching doesn't have any evidence either way. That's why you have to call him out in game. Much harder to try and deflect his mistakes on to you when he just made them.

Chrysis wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes, call them out on it. Cheaters love it when you're reluctant to call them out on it, since it lets them keep doing it to other people. It's not like this is something ambiguous where you could make a legitimate argument either way, your opponent was clearly wrong and even a brief glance at the codex would prove it.

The problem with doing it now is that all he has to do is say "I didn't say/do that, you must be mistaken." Especially when the reality is so close to what he tried, it'll be easy for him to fob off and anyone watching doesn't have any evidence either way. That's why you have to call him out in game. Much harder to try and deflect his mistakes on to you when he just made them.

I'm thinking this.

Did it have an effect? I mean...3 skimmers moving 12 and firing everything...plus 2x the actual shots plus twin linked? Lol...of course it did.

Just call him next time. And if you really want to verify, get battlescribe if you have a smart phone and it gives you the unit weapons and options if you go to build an army. Still longer than looking it up in the codex of course, but it's a method at least.

Always call them out.

Ideally during the game, never be afraid to ask and see the codex and correct an opponent. Cheaters thrive on those who hesitate or will never speak up. Call him/her out, and even if they deny it with all their heart, every other gamer will be that much more wary when playing them.

Don't let behaviour like that slide.

 Blacksails wrote:
Always call them out.

Ideally during the game, never be afraid to ask and see the codex and correct an opponent. Cheaters thrive on those who hesitate or will never speak up. Call him/her out, and even if they deny it with all their heart, every other gamer will be that much more wary when playing them.

Don't let behaviour like that slide.

Fair enough...I agree. Unfortunately, without a codex this is impossible. I figure I give people the benefit of the doubt in knowing what their own units do. One take-home lesson is that you (I, in this case) should study up on common builds outside of your own codex.

I've done stuff like that on accident before. The two big ones I played wrong my first game or two were that the multi-tracker only works in my shooting phase and the drone controller doesn't work on missile drones. They're obvious in the codex, but I read it a little too fast and didn't notice that missile drones weren't included (I don't really have an excuse about the multi tracker).

See what the guy does the next time you play with him. I went up to my opponent the next time I saw him and said "look, sorry, I'm new at the codex, I got these rules wrong". If he doesn't do something like that, and he still does the same stuff next time, then you call him on it.

A friend of mine played his Annihilation Barge as fast for the first 4-5 games, but then he was reading through the codex one evening and realized his mistake, and made sure to let everybody know he'd been running it wrong.

Seeing as how most vehicle mounted tesla weapons are twin-linked, and the barge model just looks like it should be fast, it very well could be an honest mistake and your opponent just doesn't know any better. Just because he's played in a tourney or two doesn't make him a rules guru.

I know one guy who says he's been playing 40k for like 15 years. Almost every discussion we have he gets a ton of stuff wrong - like last night he thought an allied detachment gave you three extra HQ instead of three total.

Moral of the story is - this game has a crapload of rules and so it's easily to get some wrong.

I think the longer you've played the harder it is to keep the rules straight, honestly. I have to keep reminding myself that D-Cannons are not Guess weapons any more. I doubt any cheater is going to admit to it straight up if you confront them later. If I'm skeptical in-game I say "really?" and "I didn't realize..." and if I get the vibe it's intentional I just avoid that person in the future.

The real issue about cheating is not whether it affects the outcome or whether money is on the line, it's whether it removes the fun from the game. All the money we spend to buy models and rules and time we spend building and painting, anyone who takes away from the fun of the game is a thief and anyone who makes the game more fun is worth their weight in gold. Choose your opponents wisely and remember the good and the bad.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I know one guy who says he's been playing 40k for like 15 years. Almost every discussion we have he gets a ton of stuff wrong - like last night he thought an allied detachment gave you three extra HQ instead of three total.

Moral of the story is - this game has a crapload of rules and so it's easily to get some wrong.

This!

"Are you sure? Can I see the Codex for a second?"

"I thought I read it differently. Mind if I check the book?"

Or, for more egregious/time limited/tournament situations:
"I don't think that's correct. Let me go grab the TO."

Done. If he knows he's cheating, he'll be reluctant/hostile, if not, it won't be a problem and you'll get a resolution pretty quickly. I've made a few serious unintentional mistakes with my Necrons which could have easily been resolved this way, but no one at the local store asked to see the relevant entry in my Codex (Canoptek Scarabs in my case) for months.

On the other hand, few things are more annoying than someone coming up to you weeks or months after a game and trying to debrief you on the specifics of some situation which you've completely forgotten and hasn't come up since, but has clearly been eating them up inside.

In my opinion, there's a fairly short statute of limitations on this sort of thing. If it might have been a mistake, play them again, and challenge it when it comes up. If you really think they're trying to cheat you out of a win, the correct response is not to play with them.

Playing in a tournament does not mean he has been cheating. It just means he might not know his army very well and not a single person he's faced before has known better.

There's no need to call him a cheater either, but you should strive to inform him and explain he's been making a mistake and point it out to him. If he's been cheating, he'll ignore you, play it down or get angry. If he's been making a mistake however, he will most likely be apologetic and/or grateful.

I make the occasional rule mistakes myself and I really appreciate it when anyone, not just my opponent, points it out. I want to get better at this game and the only way to do that is to correct my mistakes.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The question is, do you call this person out or let it go?

Neither.

You tell everyone at the game store what happened, and advise them not to play with the person in question. No amount of talking is going to stop a person that dedicated to cheating. The best you can hope for is that he can't find a game because no one will play him, and eventually he'll get the hint and wander away.

That or try crossing a body of water. I hear that helps...

 Ailaros wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The question is, do you call this person out or let it go?

Neither.

You tell everyone at the game store what happened, and advise them not to play with the person in question....

This is dangerous ground....
what if you were wrong, and he was right.
This happened to me once...a guy swore I got a rule wrong, accused me of cheating - he was SURE of it.
(he was wrong, even stammered when the TO had to read him the rule).

Telling everyone in the game store "hey, I think so and so may have got a rule wrong...but he seemed exceptionally confident that he did not....but did not have a book" is very different than "he is a cheater".

dementedwombat wrote:I've done stuff like that on accident before. The two big ones I played wrong my first game or two were that the multi-tracker only works in my shooting phase and the drone controller doesn't work on missile drones. They're obvious in the codex, but I read it a little too fast and didn't notice that missile drones weren't included (I don't really have an excuse about the multi tracker).

See what the guy does the next time you play with him. I went up to my opponent the next time I saw him and said "look, sorry, I'm new at the codex, I got these rules wrong". If he doesn't do something like that, and he still does the same stuff next time, then you call him on it.

My friend did exactly that with his missile drones too! Bane of my army in low points...

But wait till you play him again, and kindly ask to see his rules if something is up. His attitude towards giving you his book will tell you if he is intentionally cheating or not


Von Chogg

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Had a game with an opponent today using an unfamiliar (to me) build. This opponent made several rules errors that I'm fairly certain were blatant cheating. For example, he played his Annihilation Barges as fast skimmers (they are not), armed with two Twin-Linked Tesla Cannons (they have one and it's not twin-linked). Given that this person claims to play this army regularly, in tournaments, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this was completely intentional cheating on his part.

The question is, do you call this person out or let it go? It's a scumbag move, and I would have mentioned it at the time, but he conveniently forgot his codex and we lacked a store copy so I had no way to verify.

If you see it, cal it out then and there. If you miss it, you can't later come back and throw it in their face for a couple reasons: it looks like sour grapes, and ex-post-facto, good luck convincing anyone what they did was wrong (especially if they are a cheater and doing it intentionally - the denials will be epic).

Rules do two things: provide a framework for people to abide by and play, and also act as a sort of mid-game regulatory policy against intentional cheaters, and the unintentional mis-remembered / forgotten rule, etc.

But you have to catch them and invoke it then and there on the spot, or it doesn't do any good. Invoke the rules if you have to, and show them. If you both interpret a rule different (can easily happen), get a third party arbiter, or roll it off.



In essence though, cheaters gon' cheat. Nothing is going to stop them until they run out of opponents, and then more often than not they just wind up in groups that will tolerate their cheating (typically with tons of grousing behind the back). Seen it too many times to think that anything is going to stop a dyed in the wool cheater.

-- Haight

 Ailaros wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The question is, do you call this person out or let it go?

Neither.

You tell everyone at the game store what happened, and advise them not to play with the person in question. No amount of talking is going to stop a person that dedicated to cheating. The best you can hope for is that he can't find a game because no one will play him, and eventually he'll get the hint and wander away.

That or try crossing a body of water. I hear that helps...

I appreciate the advice but I'm pretty sure that this would not be good for any party involved...

Grab the codex and point out his mistakes. Laugh about it and tell him to have his Codex next time or you'll "forget" yours and every weapons will become a S10 Ap1 non-scattering blasts with infinite range.

 Ailaros wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The question is, do you call this person out or let it go?

Neither.

You tell everyone at the game store what happened, and advise them not to play with the person in question. No amount of talking is going to stop a person that dedicated to cheating. The best you can hope for is that he can't find a game because no one will play him, and eventually he'll get the hint and wander away.

This may be an overreaction. It may also turn you into the outcast for being a lunatic instead of the guy who may or may not have been cheating.

Apply Hanlon's Razor, give them the benefit of the doubt, and keep an eye out for this sort of behavior in the future. It's entirely possible that this was an unintentional slip-up, and the fact that someone plays in tournaments isn't a guarantee that they know the rules. I had an alleged "tournament player" tell me that vehicles that aren't fast can't move flat out. The difference here was I pulled out the rulebook and showed him how wrong he was. If someone doesn't have their codex this can cause problems, but don't be afraid to ask people around for rules clarifications. I know that when I'm around the LGS I am always happy to help sort out rules questions/disputes.

The question is, did he really cheat? We weren't there so we could not see his expression.

It is very "convenient" to forget the codex. But how do you forget your codex? You don't forget your minis. Usually I thought you don't play if you don't have the book.

Then again, as I say, if someone who has to cheat playing with plastic toy soldiers, is kinda pathetic person then who needs to win with plastic toy soldiers.

If anything, you should have done a 50/50 roll then. To be fair if you can't back up what you say, you shouldn't have a problem in not being able to use it then.

I haven't played in ages. My last game or so, someone wanted to go through the wall. We all said you can't do it. He said you can. We asked to show us in the 5th edtion rule book where you can. He couldn't show us so he didn't go through the walls.

2 weeks later I found the rule. Next time I saw him, I told him he was correct and showed him the page. Thing is, you can be right, but if you can't prove it, then most times you are wrong.

I would have called him out on it. By that, I wouldn't call him a cheater, but I would quesiton it. Saying he claims to play this army regularly, in tournaments," I can't see how he forgot his codex in the first place.

I made the "Annihilation barges are fast" mistake in my first few games too. I also accidentally gave my Wraiths Entropic Strike in my second ever game, and was forgetting that the wraith's attached destroyer can't also ignore difficult terrain until my friend pointed it out to me.

There are a lot of rules in this game for sure.

Torquar wrote:
I made the "Annihilation barges are fast" mistake in my first few games too. I also accidentally gave my Wraiths Entropic Strike in my second ever game, and was forgetting that the wraith's attached destroyer can't also ignore difficult terrain until my friend pointed it out to me.

There are a lot of rules in this game for sure.

So true. My roommate plays Daemons... 60 minutes after we set up the board he's ready to play after rolling for all his gear... spells... abilities... tables... blah blah blah.

So many rules we forget about Nightfight, Fear checks, Look out sir, and dozens of other rules in our mad rush to actually get a game in on a week day.

 DeffDred wrote:

Torquar wrote:
I made the "Annihilation barges are fast" mistake in my first few games too. I also accidentally gave my Wraiths Entropic Strike in my second ever game, and was forgetting that the wraith's attached destroyer can't also ignore difficult terrain until my friend pointed it out to me.

There are a lot of rules in this game for sure.

So true. My roommate plays Daemons... 60 minutes after we set up the board he's ready to play after rolling for all his gear... spells... abilities... tables... blah blah blah.

So many rules we forget about Nightfight, Fear checks, Look out sir, and dozens of other rules in our mad rush to actually get a game in on a week day.

I think there is a difference here. While yes there is lots of rules, this "professional" claimed he played many tournies and this is how it was done. So basically this guy claimed he knows what he was doing.

It's one thing playing your friends, it's different when playing pick up game with strangers. Yes we all make mistakes, I make many of them, but this sounded a bit fishy. I wonder if this person didn't "forget" to bring his codex if the results would be different.

And there's a big difference between getting rules wrong and cheating. There's even a difference between really believing that you're right even when you're not, and cheating.

But the difference between ignorance and malice is pretty easy to spot. He could have acceded or 4+ed it. He could have looked up the rules in a store copy of the codex, or borrowed someone else's, or, if he didn't have access to either, then he could have acceded, or 4+ed it, or even gone to the internet to ask for a confirmation of the rules.

But what really sets it off is that he claims to play with this army regularly, and at tournaments. You don't have such a terrible understanding of your codex if you have that kind of experience.

That means either he has the experience, in which case he's cheating and he KNOWS he's cheating, and so you should never, ever play against the person, or it means that he doesn't have the experience, and is the kind of person who brags about skills he doesn't have, and brags about things he didn't do. While being a clueless idiot who foists wrong rules on people by nothing more than the size of his... ego.

Ignorance of the rules is fixable. Being a horrendous cock or an outright cheater, or any other such gaping personality faults isn't.

They say "don't feed the trolls" for a reason. Starvation really is the only cure.

If you want, you can give him perhaps one or, if you're feeling delusional, two or three chances to redeem himself, but it's very unlikely to have any effect. Worse, if you keep allowing him to behave the way he is while still getting the benefits of playing games and being sociable, it will be just that much more difficult to exorcise him later on.

Just as a rule I never play anyone without an army list and a Codex because of this.

I bring mine that way people can look over my units/codex if they have any questions. If I'm going to spend the extra 10 seconds to put my books in my bag, why can't my opponent?


At this point, just let it go. But if you ever pay against him again, make sure someone has a book in case something just seems too good to be true.