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When C: CSM came out we all laughed at the Mutilators.



Are we still laughing or is there any way to make them "good"?

I've used them as cheap disruption units and found them pretty useful. Run them solo, with MoN (duh) and deepstrike them near enemy backfield support (for less scatter, use allied daemon icons). Their role is to tie up a shooty unit, like devastators, broadsides, dark-reapers, until something else in your army can finish them off. They work best with fast moving assault armies (allied daemons are good), where everything is hitting the enemy by turn 2, and the lone mutilators have low target priority. They dont have enough attacks to actually kill anything, but they are durable enough to hold a unit in place for 4 or 5 combat phases, killing a model or two every time.
For 61 points, I think they fit the roll fine. Sometime's theyll die, or sometimes theyll scatter too far away to do anything cuz they slow, but when they work, they can really take the heat off the rest of your army.
Also, they crack vehicles really well with chainfists.

Running them in larger units, meh. not enough attacks, not high enough WS, too slow, and can fail moral checks pretty easily if any of them die. 3 plus a TDA lord in a landraider, maybe, but thats a pretty expensive unit and there are better deathstars in the codex.

If they had the Rampage USR, or could be taken in units of 5, theyd be pretty baller.
And for the love of god, dont use the official models. Convert your own.
Here's my little fatty.

I really like the muti concept but...

They are pretty bad still. They dont do nearly enough damage for their points cost especially when regular terminators are just better for their points cost.

They still get owned by stray plasma and meltas and s8 make MoN mandatory further increasing their points cost.

Like the above poster said. If we had options to give them increased attacks or take larger squads they might be ok.

For right now if you want a super devastating melee unit you have 3 good options and very cool option. All do way more damage for their points cost than muti's and get into CC more effectively.

Aba/Kharn/Typhus + terminators

Khorne lord on a bike

Daemon prince black mace

 McGibs wrote:
I've used them as cheap disruption units and found them pretty useful. Run them solo, with MoN (duh) and deepstrike them near enemy backfield support (for less scatter, use allied daemon icons). Their role is to tie up a shooty unit, like devastators, broadsides, dark-reapers, until something else in your army can finish them off. They work best with fast moving assault armies (allied daemons are good), where everything is hitting the enemy by turn 2, and the lone mutilators have low target priority. They dont have enough attacks to actually kill anything, but they are durable enough to hold a unit in place for 4 or 5 combat phases, killing a model or two every time.
For 61 points, I think they fit the roll fine. Sometime's theyll die, or sometimes theyll scatter too far away to do anything cuz they slow, but when they work, they can really take the heat off the rest of your army.
Also, they crack vehicles really well with chainfists.

Running them in larger units, meh. not enough attacks, not high enough WS, too slow, and can fail moral checks pretty easily if any of them die. 3 plus a TDA lord in a landraider, maybe, but thats a pretty expensive unit and there are better deathstars in the codex.

If they had the Rampage USR, or could be taken in units of 5, theyd be pretty baller.
And for the love of god, dont use the official models. Convert your own.
Here's my little fatty.

I'm enjoying the base on your model. How did you do it?



@topic: Why MoN over MoK? One in cc, nothing short of SM powerfists will kill them easily.

I got out my credit card, and ordered them in :p
http://www.secretweaponminiatures.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=79_30_60

 McGibs wrote:
I got out my credit card, and ordered them in :p
http://www.secretweaponminiatures.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=79_30_60

ahhh

For only 5 points more than a terminator with a pair of chainfists, a mutilator gets +1W. That's not too shabby.

As for how to use them, how about with a MoK and a land raider? That's 15 chainfist attacks on the charge backed up by TLLC. They're capable of one-shorting MCs and any vehicle with a single charge. That's pretty good - it's just a matter of getting them there.

One problem is that, being WS4, of those 15 attacks, only 7ish will connect, which might kill an MC, if they dont roll too many ones, and their target doesnt have a good invul save. Against a squad, they wont kill most outright, but will force them to rout, cant sweeping advance them, and then be sitting out in the open again.
If there's only one mutilator, he'll kill maybe 1 or 2 models, and (hopefully) not receive any wounds in return, thus sticking in combat for several phases.

I use them as bodyguard units or deepstrike them into backfields to scare stationary units and vehicles. If the enemy ignores them they will tie up or kill a unit or vehicle. Either way they take enough fire to make a turn easy on the rest of my army or they will nuke something.

On the charge, a squad of three mutilators against a T6 W6 Sv3+ monstrous creature looks like 15 attacks, for 7.5 hits, for 6.33 wounds. That's a dead monstrous creature in a single charge. That's not bad. Meanwhile, against, say, nob bikers, that's 3 or more dead nob bikers. That's not bad either. 9 dead GEq isn't exactly nothing either.

The problem with mutilators isn't their damage output. They do plenty of killing. The problem is one of how to get them to where you want them, what with slow and purposeless.

They compete with other assault specialists for elite slots. Possessed, Terminators, even Bezerkers are more attractive. Mutilators damage output is a problem. Max unit size of 3. A single casualty causes morale checks. Even if they all connect they're just not killing much, if the opponent runs they can't sweep either. They're hands down the worst unit in Codex CSM.

 Ailaros wrote:
On the charge, a squad of three mutilators against a T6 W6 Sv3+ monstrous creature looks like 15 attacks, for 7.5 hits, for 6.33 wounds. That's a dead monstrous creature in a single charge. That's not bad. Meanwhile, against, say, nob bikers, that's 3 or more dead nob bikers. That's not bad either. 9 dead GEq isn't exactly nothing either.

The problem with mutilators isn't their damage output. They do plenty of killing. The problem is one of how to get them to where you want them, what with slow and purposeless.

I agree on slow and purposeful but I wouldn't put as much praise in their killing of MC. You still have to factor in possible Overwatch and then CC. A MC can quickly go smash and kill at the very least one possibly two. This also doesn't factor the likelyhood of the MC being more prone to assault than the Mutilators.

Well, mutilators DO have a ++. Even when you take them out of spit-and-polish examples, mutilators aren't exactly BAD against monstrous creatures. Not most of them at least.

And certainly not for their price. Which is something else to consider. They don't NEED to do very much damage to make them worth taking.

A lot of MCs also have invul saves, and 5+ wounds, and they strike at higher than I1 with AP2 attacks. Factoring in all that, id say that mutilators are pretty damn terrible at killing MCs. Also, 3 mutliators is still over 200 points.

3 Naked Mutilators is 165

I've found out the best way to save mutilators is to put them out of theyre misery

MarsNZ wrote:
3 Naked Mutilators is 165

I'm just thinking... if you are gonna run Termies in Land Raiders, might as well get Mutilators... I think they are better for the price.

Mutilators against most MC will get crushed. Most MC have a high str sometimes 8+ with their weapons or can smash. The instant death from 4-5 smash attacks often prescienced or having shred or something means that even if he kills 1-2 mutilators (thats 1-2 unsaved wounds from) the damage output of the squad TANKS. Needless to say most MC either have nasty psychic powers or shooting also.

3 Naked mutilators will get owned by S8 shots so there is almost no use taking them against armies that have a lot of it. 3 muti's in an upgraded fashion are like 200 points which is expensive as a daemon prince with some upgrades which will hit harder and live longer (especially with nurgle and wings)

I think that if you want CC monsters (which is what you want if youre trying to use mutis) there are so many better options as other posters have said. Even taking daemon allies and a greater daemon if you don't like the other CSM choices.

P.S Having 15 chainfist attacks on the charge at I1 is painful against any unit but most units attack first. They will kill at least one muti even two before you get to attack. At the very least they muti's will attack the same time as a bunch of powerfists and hammers and both squads will die.

I dont see a scenario where they make it into CC without being shot to pieces without a land raider. A land raider will make that an almost 450 point investment a huge chunk or your army to transport 3 models. In an age of plasma spam most of us find our terminators to be near useless. terminators that cant shoot and cost more? 2 wounds is nice but that means its about a 6 man termi squad for ~160 points. Which is slightly cheaper than a regular squad of 6. A squad of termies with combi plasmas would DESTROY a unit of mutis. They are also more versatile and more durable since instant has no effect on one wound models.

Durr, for some reason in my head they were 70pts like oblits.

 Ailaros wrote:
On the charge, a squad of three mutilators against a T6 W6 Sv3+ monstrous creature looks like 15 attacks, for 7.5 hits, for 6.33 wounds. That's a dead monstrous creature in a single charge. That's not bad. Meanwhile, against, say, nob bikers, that's 3 or more dead nob bikers. That's not bad either. 9 dead GEq isn't exactly nothing either.

The problem with mutilators isn't their damage output. They do plenty of killing. The problem is one of how to get them to where you want them, what with slow and purposeless.

Thats with MoK, with MoK it only takes 3 powerfist wounds to kill them all. A MC could also ID them before they strike.

I converted one for my Slaanesh Marines just for fun. I like to deep strike him aggressively into enemy lines someplace that threatens their weapon emplacements.

Hes largely useless- but the opponent needs to deal with him if they don't want his chainfist grinding through a vehicle, or lightning claws digging into a Dev Squad or something. Basically his sole point in life is to draw fire from other elements of the army- or the Oblits. If he can do that, hes doing his job!

 akaean wrote:
I converted one for my Slaanesh Marines just for fun. I like to deep strike him aggressively into enemy lines someplace that threatens their weapon emplacements.

Hes largely useless- but the opponent needs to deal with him if they don't want his chainfist grinding through a vehicle, or lightning claws digging into a Dev Squad or something. Basically his sole point in life is to draw fire from other elements of the army- or the Oblits. If he can do that, hes doing his job!

Seems like DS is the only way to use Muts....

DSing a single cheap(ish) model for a tough(ish) sponge on turn 2-3 sounds like the winner so far?

Well, to do smash attacks, MCs have to reduce their number of attacks by 50%. Most MCs have more like 3 or 4 attacks, which means that they're doing roughly 2 attacks with smashing. Assuming WS4 (or, as it happens with a bunch of monstrous creatures, worse), that's 1 hit with a smash attack, which still can't roll 1's to wound, and still has to make it through an invul save. You've got only a roughly half chance to lose ONE mutilator. That's not exactly a matter of them getting trashed.

Put another way, something that causes 2x wounds (through ID) but puts down 1/2 as many attacks doesn't actually gain the attacker anything. It's a wash, killing-power-wise.

Furthermore, some monstrous creatures and other baddies are stuck swinging at I1 thanks to wargear. If a squad of mutilators gets into a fight with calgar and the two kill each other simultaneously, I'd think the CSM player was the one who really won that engagement.

In any case, it's not to say that there are NO hard counters, but to say that the existence of a counter invalidates it as a competitive choice is silly. EVERY unit has counters.

And yeah, abaddon with three mutilators in a land raider, while stupid expensive would handle pretty much anything it managed to make it into contact with.

If you're taking a super character (abbadon, kharn, typhus, etc) and you want to put him in a landraider these guys are the perfect bodyguard. It's like getting 6 terminator wounds with any combination of weapons you want that can fit alongside a character in a landraider.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
If you're taking a super character (abbadon, kharn, typhus, etc) and you want to put him in a landraider these guys are the perfect bodyguard. It's like getting 6 terminator wounds with any combination of weapons you want that can fit alongside a character in a landraider.

but then you have no champion to take the challenge. They would be a great escort if only they had a character to challenge chumps

 Exergy wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
If you're taking a super character (abbadon, kharn, typhus, etc) and you want to put him in a landraider these guys are the perfect bodyguard. It's like getting 6 terminator wounds with any combination of weapons you want that can fit alongside a character in a landraider.

but then you have no champion to take the challenge. They would be a great escort if only they had a character to challenge chumps

Don't think that would matter when Failbbadon is pimping with them....

1 DS'd seems to be the only reasonable avenue which really sucks with how cool the idea is, ive ran them to success on foot as well as in land raider though I prefer MoK but will attest that other units could have done the same job better.

I find that they have use when used as a bodyguard escort, especially for Typhus as they can adapt well to whatever he happens to be hunting at the time. (LC for hordes, CF for MC). Sure they die quite easily, but seeing as a Land Raider can only carry 5 bulky models, then you technically end up with 2 additional 2+ wounds than you would if you took Terminators.

I just fell into a squad for cheap and built them. I'm excited to use them - but don't expect much.

On the plus side I can now use the apoc formation that requires a squad each of the daemonic "-ators". Mine will run with MoS and VotLW. Against marines I suspect they'll do well. If the enemy is in cover, axes round 1. Round 2, lightning claws and alternate LCs or power swords as needed to stay ahead of the initiative curve. Save chainfists for in case a dreadnought comes in or I need to pop a tank.

I dunno, might kill their points. We'll see. IMO the ability the apoc formation gives them is what they should have come with already - each wound they do grants another attack. Would have been nice.