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Im looking for some opinions on weather or not I should remove the warlocks from my 3 man guardian jet-bike squads, I run 3 squads usually (ill post my list below) so not running them saves me 165 pts, i could do quite a bit with those points.

I have a few slight variations of this ive gone through i cant decide what one I like best but this is one of them:

Farseer - Jetbike, shard of anaris
Farseer - Jetbike, spear
Warlock x10 - Jetbikes, 5x spear (3 go with guardians)

Wind Rider Jetbikes x3 - Cannon
Wind Rider Jetbikes x3 - Cannon
Wind Rider Jetbikes x3 - Cannon

Dire Avengers x5
Wave serpent - Holo, SL

Dire Avengers x5
Wave serpent - Holo, SL

Wraithguard x5 - D-scythes
Wave serpent - Holo, SL

Fire Prism - Holo
Fire Prism - Holo


Thoughts for the list:

Dropping wraithguard for warp spiders
Dropping 3 warlocks for warp spiders
Dropping 3 warlocks + 1 squad of jetbikes for even more warp spiders
I want warp spiders I think...

I would either drop the warlocks or combine 2 of the windrider units and put a spear warlock in with them. As is your 3+1 man units are mostly objective grabbers I imagine and lack the numbers to contribute.

The wraithguard make me sad with their elites slot position. Though considering the mechanized nature of the list they are probably useful even if not scoring. Warpspiders could be even more useful if you have found light vehicles are more trouble than infantry/MC.

Tbh I wouldn't ever bother attaching a Warlock to a 3 man unit of Jetbikes. They don't get a Ld buff out of it, and since you are going to be reserving and hiding them all game its not an effective use of points at all. Essentially Warlocks don't help you grab objectives any more reliably, so for a unit which is only ever going to steal objectives they aren't worth it. Given the cost of Warlocks on Jetbikes I rarely ever consider them in Jetbike units unless its a big 9 man unit with a Farseer, because at that point you are using them as damage dealers rather than just objective grabbers and the chance of getting 2+ saves on your Jetbikes is too tasty to pass up.

Other than that the list desperately needs the Baron in there so you can Hit and Run with the Council, without it you are going to get stuck in combat for most of the game because your damage output isn't really that high. You also kinda need Cannons on the Serpents, as 3 T/L S6 quasi Rending shots for 10pts is pretty nice.

A jetlock is one point less than a minimum windrider squad. If you've got room to spare in your force org, I'd get the objective grabbing squad. Unless you wanna run wraithfighters and hope for embolden/horrify.
I personally wouldn't run 3 windriders without reserves manipulation, such as an autarch.

Ansacs is right, rather than having a dude on a bike, find the extra points and get three, just don't expect them to live too long, everyone is going to twig why they're in the list and when they come on they will be brutally set upon (and set on fire) by Hell Turkeys.

I'd drop the Warlocks in favour of a Spirit Seer and make the Wraithguard unit troops, as they take a ton of killing (avoid plasma) and having them as scoring is just rude.

I would also lose the Fire Prisms, I've run them a couple of times and really aren't feeling them, They don't have sufficient survivability and their damage output is low, I've replaced mine with War-Walkers

GH I think you mis understand, you cant take a single guardian jetbike, they were already in squads of 3 with a warlock attached, im just getting opinions on weather or not people think it is worth it to put the lock in the squad.

2ndly ive used fire prisms lots, and I have yet to lose a game of 6th edition eldar, how are 3+ cover saves insufficient survivability?

Why would I start altering my army, removing farseers to get spirit seers (worst idea) when all I was asking was opinions on guardian jetbike warlocks?


With that said the jetbikes are more than just objective grabbers, most people ignore them because they are 61 pts for 3 models they think they are useless, but they put out quite a bit of damage each turn I usually start with 1 on the table and reserve 2 of them.

Ive decided to take the warlocks off those squads, ill be filling the points out with warp spiders, and I may also remove the wraithguard, they are fun but I think warp spiders are better.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
GH I think you mis understand, you cant take a single guardian jetbike, they were already in squads of 3 with a warlock attached, im just getting opinions on weather or not people think it is worth it to put the lock in the squad.

2ndly ive used fire prisms lots, and I have yet to lose a game of 6th edition eldar, how are 3+ cover saves insufficient survivability?

Why would I start altering my army, removing farseers to get spirit seers (worst idea) when all I was asking was opinions on guardian jetbike warlocks?


With that said the jetbikes are more than just objective grabbers, most people ignore them because they are 61 pts for 3 models they think they are useless, but they put out quite a bit of damage each turn I usually start with 1 on the table and reserve 2 of them.

Ive decided to take the warlocks off those squads, ill be filling the points out with warp spiders, and I may also remove the wraithguard, they are fun but I think warp spiders are better.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

I imagine the reason to suggesting the spirit seer over the farseer is that it makes the wraithguard troops and the spirit mark ability is very strong as well with the d-sycthes only being S4.

I personally think that Warlocks don't bring anything to the table for a 3 man jet bike squad and would rather put those points into something else personally. I have heard Warp Spiders are amazing but have never used them as my meta includes forge world and I take other options instead of spiders.

Based on the way that 3bike+warlock units used to work in older editions, they should be really good at two things compared with the 3-jetbike unit alone:

1. They can to the opponent's backfield and using the warlock's spear/witchblade to take out a lightly-guarded vehicle with armorbane in turn 2 or so.

2. If the warlock has the destructor power, they can zoom to the enemy backfield and flame an entrenched, preferably isolated unit out of hard cover.

The bike council as a whole can also do these tasks, but putting a warlock with a unit of regular bikes means you can tackle more than one target, or targets that are in different parts of the table, at the same time. But either task assumes you'll be eating a turn of fire (so the bikes are really just ablative wounds for the warlock) and probably making a morale check before being able to assault in turn 2.

If your opponent has no isolated vehicles or entrenched squads who are vulnerable to AP4 templates, then there's no point splitting off warlocks. But the nice thing about the warlock council, IIRC, is you can decide at the beginning of the game, right?

[edit]

Right--you generate psychic powers before deployment, and split off warlocks just before rolling warlord powers, so you'll already know what powers your warlocks have before the decision of whether to split any of them off.

Thats what I was previously doing with them, however they dont get the chance to do that all that often which is part of the reason I made this thread to begin with. Also I REALLY want to fit some warp spiders in my army, they are TOO good not to have in any eldar force.

I was pretty sure thats how it worked as well for rolling powers.

Dropping 3 warlocks + 1 squad of jetbikes for even more warp spiders

7 warlocks is enough to handle what you need them to. 10 wont make that much of a difference.

Grab some spiders. Try em out.

Yeah, 5 spiders (not bothering with the exarch) is enough to cause headaches for any opponent, and dirt cheap. You'll probably lose them, but not before they cause all kinds of disruption.

Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
GH I think you mis understand, you cant take a single guardian jetbike, they were already in squads of 3 with a warlock attached, im just getting opinions on weather or not people think it is worth it to put the lock in the squad.

Ask yourself this.

Which is better value

3 jetbikes + warlock
or
6 jetbikes.

If you really think the warlock will make a difference go ahead, but if you think the other jetbikes will be better either double up the squads or invest the points elsewhere.

one of the big things I liked about the warlock was the str 9 spear, you can do a lot with that, instakilling HQ's and multi wound models is also nice in combat.

But I am going to test a few games without and see how I feel about it, I really want the warp spiders I used them in my last game and they were brilliant

Pretty sure the Spear is only S9 against vehicles (it wounds on 2+ against infantry I think), and only when shooting. In assault its basically just a Witchblade.

Powerguy wrote:
Pretty sure the Spear is only S9 against vehicles (it wounds on 2+ against infantry I think), and only when shooting. In assault its basically just a Witchblade.

Ahh, damn, you're right.. Ive been using it wrong. Not sure how I missed the secondary profile of the weapon.

Thanks.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Dropping 3 warlocks + 1 squad of jetbikes for even more warp spiders

7 warlocks is enough to handle what you need them to. 10 wont make that much of a difference.

Grab some spiders. Try em out.

MOAR SPIDERZ!!!

My updated list with warp spiders!!! Will test this week! Gonna post this in the army list section for review and criticism as well.

Farseer - jetbike, shard of anaris
Farseer - Jetbike, spear, spirit stones
Warlock x8 - Jetbikes, spear x5

Wind rider jetbikes x3 - Cannon
Wind rider jetbikes x3 - Cannon
Wind rider jetbikes x3 - Cannon

Dire avengers x5
Wave serpent - SL, holo fields
Dire avengers x5
Wave serpent - SL, holo fields

Warp spiders x10 - Exarch, TL spinner
Warp spiders x10 - Exarch, TL spinner

Fire prism - Holo
Fire prism - Holo

Warp Spider Exarchs are a waste of points, unless you really want the Spinneret Rifle. Use the points for Cannons on the Wave Serpents or some other wargear.

Powerguy wrote:
Pretty sure the Spear is only S9 against vehicles (it wounds on 2+ against infantry I think), and only when shooting. In assault its basically just a Witchblade.

Still its a 'thrown lascannon' with a 6" range on a bike squad. Good utility.

 MrEconomics wrote:
Warp Spider Exarchs are a waste of points, unless you really want the Spinneret Rifle. Use the points for Cannons on the Wave Serpents or some other wargear.

I doubt ill use the cannon on a wave serpent, I tend to go 12 inches and then wouldnt be able to fire the cannon anyway and 15 pts for 2 extra shots, bs 5, and twin linked isnt that bad, maybe not necessary though.

10 guys no exarch is 20 shots 13.2 hits 11 wounds and 1.7 ap1
10 guys with exarch 22 shots 15.5 hits 13.22 wounds and 2.1 ap1 These numbers are approximate, i dont have a calculator infront of me


It is likely that for 15 points you will kill 1 to 2 extra enemies per shooting phase, if you take an average of 15 pts per enemy model (probably low) and lets say i only attacked for 3 turns, thats still tripple my points investment on the low end and if everything went well and got full everything that is 10 times my investment. Then take into account that my targets will likely be that of terminators or heavy armoured troop squads that likely cost 30+ pts each and it starts to add up even faster.

Moar Spiderz is good advice.

Question, what y'all think of a Warlock bike squad? I'm thinking that Protect on that squad would be a good defensive counter to dual-Helldrake lists.

On the other hand, this unit is never scoring and doesn't kill much more than Guaridian JBbikes.

It's luck dependant but, I could use large Guardian JBike squads with one attached Warlock and hope they get Protect?

And Protect is Awesome because it also Jinx, potential to turn damn Belialwing Loganwing HeroHammer-whatever-wing Terminators into a unit that gets fried by my Fire Prism pie-plates.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Where are you getting 2 extra shots from having an exarch?

Yours doesn't even get 1 extra shot as it doesn't have fast shot.

 ansacs wrote:
Where are you getting 2 extra shots from having an exarch?

Yours doesn't even get 1 extra shot as it doesn't have fast shot.

If you notice I said for 15 points, that is for the tl deathspinner

The tl deathspinner gives you no extra shots only TL your shots.

Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
Im looking for some opinions on weather or not I should remove the warlocks from my 3 man guardian jet-bike squads, I run 3 squads usually (ill post my list below) so not running them saves me 165 pts, i could do quite a bit with those points.

Jet bikes - How to use them:

3 Bikes 1 S cannon - Small enough foot print to hide and maybe jump in and out from behind terrain to you a cannon.
6 Bikes 2 S cannons - Cheap enough to not care if you lose them, big enough to harrass an enemy. I suggest always moving them forward because you will lose bikes and you will fall back 3D6 inches and you might not regroup quickly....
9 Bikes 3 s cannons, Warlock spear, farseer, spear, spirit stone of anath'lan - can take a lot of damage, the warlock gives you an auto 3+ cover if you keep moving and you might get luck and roll the +1 armor save. With the farseer I usually take mostly runes of fate and maybe a little div.

LD 8 is just to low to spend anymore points than 6 jet bikes with s cannons. Honestly it's their biggest weakness.

 ansacs wrote:
The tl deathspinner gives you no extra shots only TL your shots.

The tl deathspinner is assault 4, I'm pretty sure ill check my book when I get home from work.

You know there is no weapon profile for a tl deathspinner? It is literally a twin-linked (ie reroll misses) deathspinner. So assault 2 with TL rule.

Ill have to check when I get home but I think there is a profile forit near page 65ish

I think the confusion over the TL Deathspinner is because the Exarch could buy double shots in the previous codex. In this one, he can't.

If you could get an Assault 4 weapon on the Exarch for 15 total points, then I could see it being worth it

The exarch is the one guy who doesn't really need twin-linking (it is only 2 shots, btw) because he hits on 2s anyway.