Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am looking for clarification if an FMC is an MC. You may think this a silly thought, but I'll give you two rules and explain.

Grenades: Some grenades are usable in combat against vehicles and MCs. No where does it mention that they can be used against FMC, but I think a majority would say that is the intention.

Strafing Run: Strafing run works against a list of what I consider "grounded" targets. On that list is MCs. I would argue that FMCs were not intended to be on this list.

So, Dakka, which is it? Can I strafing run an FMC because it is also an MC, or can I not use grenades against them because they are different from MCs?

considering the term Flying Monstrous Creature in cludes the term Monstrous Creature, then yes.

your two rules questions would not be applicable for swooping FMCs, but ones that aren't or have been grounded, yes, it counts as an MC.

I don't see why you think that if Strafing run works for Gliding FMCs, but it doesn't work for Swooping FMCs. Neither rule set (FMC rules nor Strafing Run) say this is the case. If Strafing run applies to FMCs I can't see why it wouldn't be all the time.

So Strafing run also mentions that it works on bikes. I've never assumed that it works on jetbikes because they are different unit types, are you saying it should because the word "bike" is in jetbike?

Datajax: Can you use grenades against Rhinos even though the rule says it works against vehicles, not specifically the vehicles called 'Rhinos'?

Fearspect wrote:
Datajax: Can you use grenades against Rhinos even though the rule says it works against vehicles, not specifically the vehicles called 'Rhinos'?

But rhinos are unit type: Vehicle, Tank (or somethign along those lines). FMCs and MCs are different unit types in the same way that bikes and jetbikes are different unit types. It may seem logical to lump them all together, but it may not be in accordance with the RAW.

The rhino's unit type is vehicle in the codex. You find that in the Unit type section. For rhinos it's vehicle(tank,transport) and (.. fast) if it's a BA rhino. EDIT: NINJA'D!

To answer your question directly, yes. But that's because it's unit type is clearly stated in the codex. IE the rhino IS specifically a vehicle.

I've set this question up with the two rules I site because I believe that one should be applied to FMCs and one should not, but we've a black and white system that means both have to be applied equally.

Datajax wrote:
I am looking for clarification if an FMC is an MC. You may think this a silly thought, but I'll give you two rules and explain.

Grenades: Some grenades are usable in combat against vehicles and MCs. No where does it mention that they can be used against FMC, but I think a majority would say that is the intention.

Strafing Run: Strafing run works against a list of what I consider "grounded" targets. On that list is MCs. I would argue that FMCs were not intended to be on this list.

So, Dakka, which is it? Can I strafing run an FMC because it is also an MC, or can I not use grenades against them because they are different from MCs?

A Flying MC is different than a regular MC. Flying MC is the unit type. MC is a different unit type. I would think that because a FMC is grounded, it would work, but according the RAW of Strafing run, it wouldn't. It only mentions MCs, not FMCs, nor FMCs that have been grounded.

As for grenades, if you can assault it, you can use a grenade.

But the RAW for, say, melta bombs is: "When used in assaults against vehicles or monstrous creatures melta bombs have the following profile..."

Krak and Plasma grenades (the other two that can be used as CC weapons) have similar uses. Only against vehicles and MCs. So grenades cannot obviously be used against FMCs. It is how my group plays it, but I'm not sure it's raw.

Datajax wrote:
But the RAW for, say, melta bombs is: "When used in assaults against vehicles or monstrous creatures melta bombs have the following profile..."

Krak and Plasma grenades (the other two that can be used as CC weapons) have similar uses. Only against vehicles and MCs. So grenades cannot obviously be used against FMCs. It is how my group plays it, but I'm not sure it's raw.

Then I hope you are only allowing FMC's to shoot one weapon per turn, as only MC's get to shoot two weapons...

As McNinja said, if it can be assaulted, grenades may be used. Since a swooping FMC is not assaultable, then you can't use grenades. But when a daemon prince hits the ground to make assaults himself, he is vulnerable. I think you are over-thinking the rules.

SoloFalcon1138: My question is basically what rule are you using to back that up? Grenades don't say they work on FMCs. And saying if it can be assaulted grenades can be used is silly. If that were the case I could use Melta bombs against terminators which can be assaulted.

Deathreaper: It says right in the FMC rules that can fire two weapons in the shooting phase, even if swooping.

can you assault an FMC?

And melta bombs specifically call out what they work on.

Right swoop mode lets you do that. (Now to my point).

Lets check gliding:

"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature." (49)

Can you use grenades against a Jump Monstrous Creature? (Yes, so you can use them against a Gliding FMC).

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right swoop mode lets you do that. (Now to my point).

Lets check gliding:

"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature." (49)

Can you use grenades against a Jump Monstrous Creature? (Yes, so you can use them against a Gliding FMC).

Objection - is being hit by a grenade moving, running, or charging?
If not, why are you using that rule to justify it?

If it charges like a JMC, wouldn't it fight the assault phase like one as well?

If not how does it assault?

Deathreaper: Moving, running, or charging are not the same as receiving attacks in CC.

I would not say that because "unit a" charges like "unit b" it also receives attacks like "unit b".

Solofalcon: Melta bombs do explicitly spell out what they can be used on. I gave that quote a few posts ago. FMC is not on the list. About assaulting an FMC: on page 20 The BRB give us permission to assault any enemy unit with in certain restrictions. There is no restriction preventing a player from declaring a charge against a gliding FMC so, yes, it can be assaulted.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If it charges like a JMC, wouldn't it fight the assault phase like one as well?

That's a leap unsupported by rules.

If not how does it assault?

Like any other model - using the stat line provided..
The normal fight subphase rules don't have any special rules calling out MCs vs Infantry.

Strict RAW, grenades cannot be used against FMCs.

HIWPI (and I think how most would) they can be.

To back up that they are not the same. The guard faq changed bring it down to affect fmc as well as normal mc

I think by now it's pretty nailed down that MCs and FMCs are separate unit types. As if to fully kill it, if the connection were implied then all the special rules wouldn't be listed again at the bottom of page 49 (Fear, Hammer of Wrath etc).

Some things that come out of this:

1) Strafing Run doesn't have any effect against FMCs (which could be argued as RAI).
2) Grenades cannot be used against FMCs (apart from the specific restrictions in Swooping mode, there is nothing to stop them from otherwise participating in close combat, grenades however can only be used against the specific unit types mentioned).

I think the idea is that whether Gliding or Swooping, an FMC is considered to always be "in the air" - it's just a case of how fast it's going and how hard it is to hit and how it can act as a result. This would also explain RAI behind why you can't use grenades on them since they have to be "clamped on" (that's the rulebook's fluff text).

Interesting side-note - a Swooping FMC that suffers a Grounding test isn't then switched to Gliding. That brings up another issue entirely that I'm going to raise a separate thread for... Scratch that, no I'm not, this was FAQed.

Melta bombs, plasma and krak grenades can all be used against a FMC in gliding mode.

Fragile wrote:
Melta bombs, plasma and krak grenades can all be used against a FMC in gliding mode.

Citation needed. A FMC in gliding mode moves/run and assaults like a Jump MC. Is being hit by a grenade moving/running or assaulting like a Jump MC?

FAQ, pg 6, last question.

Fragile wrote:
FAQ, pg 6, last question.

Argument conceded. /bow.

Thanks for pointing that out - I'd missed it.

Fragile wrote:
FAQ, pg 6, last question.

That is where that was, I knew I read something saying grenades could be used, but I could not find it in the rulebook.

Thank you.

Interesting, thanks for adding that. So grenades are answered - but not strafing run, really. You could argue that it sets a precedent for FMCs being counted as MCs, or you could argue that it's one specific case that doesn't change others. RAI is hard to read here.

Moving little off topic but don't think JotWW has been FAQ'd to include FMC's?

I'd seen this topic some time back which didn't really conclude. The last post was Yak about how FMC's are not a sub group of MC etc. However if you google JOTWW & FMC you get some blog post somewhere advising everyone on how FMC's are subject to JotWW, which confused me a little.

Was waiting for it to come up again on the forum, but this is close enough. Seems from above most people agree FMC are a complete seperate unit type to MC?

Is the Jaws classified as a shooting attack? wouldn't it then have to resolve as normal against flying units?

Solofalcon, that's correct when talking about Swooping FMCs - but Gliding FMCs aren't Hard to Hit, so theoretically they could be targeted or otherwise fall under the line. However, because of the distinction between MCs and FMCs I don't believe the power has permission to affect them (I could be wrong on this).