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Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





This isn't for me but my brother. He wants to use a Riptide with shielded missile drone, linked with a Commander with command and control node + multispectrum tracker suite, linked with Aun'Va and bodyguards. Can this be done?


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Rough Rider with Boomstick



Wiltshire

No. An IC can only join one unit at a time.

Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Read page 39, it is clear there exactly what an IC can do.
   
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Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

If an IC is already joined to a unit nothing on page 39 expressly forbids it from joining a unit during movement thereby causing it to be joined to two units at once. There is no requirement that the IC be solo in order to join a unit either. So strictly RAW, it's possible.

That being said, that is not how it is generally played and you are unlikely to find anyone who will allow it at their house/shop/tournament. I would not.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Abandon wrote:
If an IC is already joined to a unit nothing on page 39 expressly forbids it from joining a unit during movement thereby causing it to be joined to two units at once.

Except for the rules on Page 39...

"If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining." (39)

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

 DeathReaper wrote:
 Abandon wrote:
If an IC is already joined to a unit nothing on page 39 expressly forbids it from joining a unit during movement thereby causing it to be joined to two units at once.

Except for the rules on Page 39...

"If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining." (39)


And that would forbid it from joining two units in the same movement phase. That does not mean it cannot be joined to two units, it just means it can't join both of them at once. I suggest you re-read my post if you believe that line counters anything I said.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Ahh, since you "must" declare which of the 2 units it isjoining, it is assumed it can only be attatched to one.

It cannot claim to join the new unit and remain to be attatched to the first, otherwise the rule would not state that it must declare which of the 2 units it is joining.

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Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

Eihnlazer wrote:
Ahh, since you "must" declare which of the 2 units it isjoining, it is assumed it can only be attatched to one.

It cannot claim to join the new unit and remain to be attatched to the first, otherwise the rule would not state that it must declare which of the 2 units it is joining.


That would be an unfounded assumption. Stating you must chose which unit to join does not imply that you must leave any current attachment. There are rules for IC's leaving units, if you have not fulfilled those requirements you are in fact not permitted to leave the current unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/19 02:21:37


-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator



Rapid City SD

@ Abandon

Just curious but do you (or would you try to) actually play this way?

"Power armour for your power armour so you can power in your armour"
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Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

Spartak wrote:@ Abandon

Just curious but do you (or would you try to) actually play this way?


Abandon wrote:If an IC is already joined to a unit nothing on page 39 expressly forbids it from joining a unit during movement thereby causing it to be joined to two units at once. There is no requirement that the IC be solo in order to join a unit either. So strictly RAW, it's possible.

That being said, that is not how it is generally played and you are unlikely to find anyone who will allow it at their house/shop/tournament. I would not.


-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator



Rapid City SD

I missed that, my bad

"Power armour for your power armour so you can power in your armour"
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Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Abandon wrote:
Eihnlazer wrote:
Ahh, since you "must" declare which of the 2 units it isjoining, it is assumed it can only be attatched to one.

It cannot claim to join the new unit and remain to be attatched to the first, otherwise the rule would not state that it must declare which of the 2 units it is joining.


That would be an unfounded assumption. Stating you must chose which unit to join does not imply that you must leave any current attachment. There are rules for IC's leaving units, if you have not fulfilled those requirements you are in fact not permitted to leave the current unit.

The IC is joined to A.
He moves to within 2" of B and within 2" of A.
He must declare which unit he is joined to.
If he declares B he did not declare A meaning he is not joined to A.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

rigeld2 wrote:
 Abandon wrote:
Eihnlazer wrote:
Ahh, since you "must" declare which of the 2 units it isjoining, it is assumed it can only be attatched to one.

It cannot claim to join the new unit and remain to be attatched to the first, otherwise the rule would not state that it must declare which of the 2 units it is joining.


That would be an unfounded assumption. Stating you must chose which unit to join does not imply that you must leave any current attachment. There are rules for IC's leaving units, if you have not fulfilled those requirements you are in fact not permitted to leave the current unit.

The IC is joined to A.
He moves to within 2" of B and within 2" of A.
He must declare which unit he is joined to.
If he declares B he did not declare A meaning he is not joined to A.


Slightly incorrect by RAW. The IC must declare which unit it is joining. Not which unit it is joined to.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

How does that change the outcome of what Rig posted at all?

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

 DeathReaper wrote:
How does that change the outcome of what Rig posted at all?


...because declaring which unit you are joining is not the same as declaring which unit you are joined to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote:
 Abandon wrote:
Eihnlazer wrote:
Ahh, since you "must" declare which of the 2 units it isjoining, it is assumed it can only be attatched to one.

It cannot claim to join the new unit and remain to be attatched to the first, otherwise the rule would not state that it must declare which of the 2 units it is joining.


That would be an unfounded assumption. Stating you must chose which unit to join does not imply that you must leave any current attachment. There are rules for IC's leaving units, if you have not fulfilled those requirements you are in fact not permitted to leave the current unit.

The IC is joined to A.
He moves to within 2" of B and within 2" of A.
He must declare which unit he is joined to.
If he declares B he did not declare A meaning he is not joined to A.


The IC is joined to A.
He moves to within 2" of B and within 2" of A.
He must declare which unit he is joining.
He declares B per the rules for joining units and has not yet left unit A.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/20 03:19:37


-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Abandon wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
How does that change the outcome of what Rig posted at all?


...because declaring which unit you are joining is not the same as declaring which unit you are joined to.


Actually it kind of is.

Declaring which unit you are joining means that you have to nominate a unit to join, and as such be joined to...

 Abandon wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 Abandon wrote:
Eihnlazer wrote:
Ahh, since you "must" declare which of the 2 units it isjoining, it is assumed it can only be attatched to one.

It cannot claim to join the new unit and remain to be attatched to the first, otherwise the rule would not state that it must declare which of the 2 units it is joining.


That would be an unfounded assumption. Stating you must chose which unit to join does not imply that you must leave any current attachment. There are rules for IC's leaving units, if you have not fulfilled those requirements you are in fact not permitted to leave the current unit.

The IC is joined to A.
He moves to within 2" of B and within 2" of A.
He must declare which unit he is joined to.
If he declares B he did not declare A meaning he is not joined to A.


The IC is joined to A.
He moves to within 2" of B and within 2" of A.
He must declare which unit he is joining.
He declares B per the rules for joining units and has not yet left unit A.


By virtue of joining B, and declaring he is joining B, he is not joining A...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/20 03:33:27


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

Right, he's not joining A, he's already joined to A. He does not need to join it again nor has he fulfilled the rules for leaving unit A... He's still part of unit A

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Abandon wrote:
Right, he's not joining A, he's already joined to A. He does not need to join it again nor has he fulfilled the rules for leaving unit A... He's still part of unit A

You are incorrect, as the rules say you need to declare which unit you are joining. (39)

This tells us that he can only be a part of one unit at a time.


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

Having to declare which unit you are joining does not state in any way shape or form that you need to leave a unit you are already with.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Joining a unit, by declaring one of two unit to join, precludes you from joining the other unit.

Therefore when you check to see which unit you are going to join you see that you are only joined to one unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/20 03:59:09


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

 DeathReaper wrote:
Joining a unit, by declaring one of two unit to join, precludes you from joining the other unit.

Therefore when you check to see which unit you are going to join you see that you are only joined to one unit.


...except the IC is already part of unit A and does not need to 'join' the unit for that to continue. At that point you actually need permission to no longer be a part of the unit in order to be considered a separate entity from it again. Given the wording, simply declaring the IC is joining unit B does not constitute permission to leave unit A.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




DR - he is saying the requirement to say "I am joining X" does not *undo* that you are currently joined to Y
   
Made in de
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






When joined to a unit the IC becomes a member of the unit for all rules purposes while retaining the rules for characters. This is the problem here. Being a member of a unit prevents him from joining another unit as long hes a member. Since theres no permission to be a member of two units at the same time.

On the other hand there is no other requirement to join a unit then being within coherrency and if there are multiple units within coherrency you have to declare which one you are joining. Theres simply a sentence missing that creates a restriction on being part of two units at the same time or having to leave one unit before joining another or is there one?
   
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - he is saying the requirement to say "I am joining X" does not *undo* that you are currently joined to Y

Okay, thank you, I was not understanding his point.

Abandon, you still have not cited any rules saying that a model can belong to two units at once, do you have any? Page and Graph will suffice.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Rather brilliantly, the permission is the very first line of the Independent Character rule, page 39:
"An Independent Character can join other units."

For what it's worth, I believe the context is important here and that this line simply means you may choose to join a choice of other units, but are then limited further on in the rule to only joining one *at a time* - the parts about joining a unit during the Movement phase, etc, are all clear in their context and no further mention of joining multiple units is made except with the implication that you have to choose one option - but, I had to mention the above line once I'd seen it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/20 16:55:16


"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Super Ready wrote:
Rather brilliantly, the permission is the very first line of the Independent Character rule, page 39:
"An Independent Character can join other units.

However that does not give permission to join two units at once.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Is there any rule preventing a model from being part of two units?

If we accept the silly RaW argument that he can join one unit, then another without leaving the first, then that's de facto permission to join two units simultaneously. Absent an overriding rule preventing such a state, the question of whether there's a rule that a model "can belong to two units at once" is moot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/20 23:50:26


 
   
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Pyrian wrote:
Is there any rule preventing a model from being part of two units?

""The rules don't say I can't!"

This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false. The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else."

Found here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Krazy Grot Kutta Driva




Littleton

Dangit, and I had this huge logical rule bound reason why an IC cannot be apart of 2 units at once and you ruined it by quoting the forums rules and being all rules like

 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

I know I shouldn't be doing this at work, can't do the research I would like to do, but I want to throw out this thought:

When an Independent Character joins with a unit he becomes part of that unit for all purposes and they also become part of the independent characters 'unit' for all rule purposes. By attempting to join the independent character to a second unit at the time one isn't just trying to join a single model to another unit, but is trying to join every model within the first unit to the second unit at that very moment. Given that none of the other models in the unit have a rule stating they can join other units, the inclusion of them in the equation prevents you from joining the independent character to the second unit as well.

This is why drones have a special rule which grant permission for them to join another unit at the same time as an independent character.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/22 13:36:47


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