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The we did beacause nothing says we can't is not a citation proving you can so get your rules out or admit your wrong

wargamer1985 wrote:
The we did beacause nothing says we can't is not a citation proving you can so get your rules out or admit your you're wrong

Sorry, I just have no idea what this sentence is saying.

I would like to point out at this point:
The rules say you 'may not finish your move within 2" of a unit you do not intend to join'.
Nos/Abandon/whoeverelseisarguing -
If you are part of Unit A, and you move to within 2" of Unit B (with intent to join), then you do not, by your own admittance, intend to join Unit A. Therefore you cannot end your move within 2" of Unit A if you wish to join unit B.
You cannot claim the "where possible" clause prevents you from moving away from Unit A, as it is possible to end more than 2" away, by leaving Unit A.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
If you are part of Unit A, and you move to within 2" of Unit B (with intent to join), then you do not, by your own admittance, intend to join Unit A. Therefore you cannot end your move within 2" of Unit A if you wish to join unit B.

...well, snap. Nicely put - that swings it as far as I'm concerned.

The counter to that is that he is already part of that unit therefor doesn't count that unit as it is not a unit he can join, he has already joined it. As has been pointed out there is not any statement that they leave at the start of any turn nor when they join a unit. RAW.
I doubt that is what they had in mind in the end. As has also been pointed out once the IC joins multiple units he can do very little while being subjected to wounds from both units.

Spirit of the rules vs letter of the rules I guess, no way, check your grammer rules. I'm not trying to be nasty just a friendly observation.

Never in my 5 editions playing has anyone ever made an arrguement about joining 2 squads, untill now. I just read it and the wording does prevent you from joining 2 squads. Many grammer rules have hidden and implied meanings.

Gravmyr wrote:
The counter to that is that he is already part of that unit therefor doesn't count that unit as it is not a unit he can join, he has already joined it.

Exactly. If he cannot join it, he cannot intend to join it either.

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Gwyidion wrote:
There is no support for that exclusion in the rules, though - you're injecting it.

I've done no such thing.
By definition if you choose to join one thing you have also chosen not to join another.

Choosing not to join and leaving are not the same thing.

If you have chosen not to join, how can you claim to be joined?

Please explain.

You're joined to unit A. You don't need to re-join unit A. Clearly units at the start of psyker's movement phases and the psyker - if an IC - are already joined. They dont start each movement phase in some null state - if they were joined to a unit before, they're joined now. So, then they must declare which unit they're joining. Being already joined to A, they declare they're joining unit B and nothing about that action (in the rule text) requires that they leave A.

The rules say they can join units.

The rules say they have to declare which unit they are joining at the end of each movement phase.

the rules do not say joining unit A means leaving B. The rules do not say the maximum number of units an IC can be joined to is 1.

There is no implication of any kind that declaring "IC is joining unit B" has any impact on the status of IC being joined in unit A. Many people in this thread are reading that implication into the rules because thats how everyone in the history of the game has played it. But it isn't there.

Gwyidion wrote:
You're joined to unit A. You don't need to re-join unit A. Clearly units at the start of psyker's movement phases and the psyker - if an IC - are already joined. They dont start each movement phase in some null state - if they were joined to a unit before, they're joined now. So, then they must declare which unit they're joining. Being already joined to A, they declare they're joining unit B and nothing about that action (in the rule text) requires that they leave A.

The rules say they can join units.

The rules say they have to declare which unit they are joining at the end of each movement phase.

the rules do not say joining unit A means leaving B. The rules do not say the maximum number of units an IC can be joined to is 1.

There is no implication of any kind that declaring "IC is joining unit B" has any impact on the status of IC being joined in unit A. Many people in this thread are reading that implication into the rules because thats how everyone in the history of the game has played it. But it isn't there.

Did you read my previous two posts at all?

Because I am already joined. I simply did not choose to leave the unit.

Again: I choose to join A, while already being joined to B. Find the rule, page and paragraph, that states either:

1) All ICs automatically leave their unit during the movement phase, and rejoin at the end (thus they have no "joined" state before they make the choice to join A or B)

2) You must leave a unit before you can join another

You claim that joining B means you have chosen not to join A - which I agree with. However, this is NOT THE SAME as saying that choosing to join B means you LEAVE A

DR - no implication exists. Find it, or concede.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because I am already joined. I simply did not choose to leave the unit.

Again: I choose to join A, while already being joined to B. Find the rule, page and paragraph, that states either:

1) All ICs automatically leave their unit during the movement phase, and rejoin at the end (thus they have no "joined" state before they make the choice to join A or B)

2) You must leave a unit before you can join another

You claim that joining B means you have chosen not to join A - which I agree with. However, this is NOT THE SAME as saying that choosing to join B means you LEAVE A

DR - no implication exists. Find it, or concede.

You have yet to counter my point.

Your point bears no relation to my argument

Your point is that you cannot join two units at the same time. I havent. I'm ALREADY joined to one unit, and choose to join another.

Find a rule stating this is not possible. Page and paragraph

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You claim that joining B means you have chosen not to join A - which I agree with. However, this is NOT THE SAME as saying that choosing to join B means you LEAVE A

Actually, it does.
If you choose to join B you chose not to join A. By definition.
If you've chosen not to join A, how can you possibly claim to be joined to A?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your point bears no relation to my argument

Your point is that you cannot join two units at the same time. I havent. I'm ALREADY joined to one unit, and choose to join another.

Find a rule stating this is not possible. Page and paragraph

*sigh*

TG wrote:
If you are part of Unit A, and you move to within 2" of Unit B (with intent to join), then you do not, by your own admittance, intend to join Unit A. Therefore you cannot end your move within 2" of Unit A if you wish to join unit B.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You claim that joining B means you have chosen not to join A - which I agree with. However, this is NOT THE SAME as saying that choosing to join B means you LEAVE A

Actually, it does.
If you choose to join B you chose not to join A. By definition.
If you've chosen not to join A, how can you possibly claim to be joined to A?

I was already joined to A. Show when I stopped being joined. Page and Para.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your point bears no relation to my argument

Your point is that you cannot join two units at the same time. I havent. I'm ALREADY joined to one unit, and choose to join another.

Find a rule stating this is not possible. Page and paragraph

*sigh*

TG wrote:
If you are part of Unit A, and you move to within 2" of Unit B (with intent to join), then you do not, by your own admittance, intend to join Unit A. Therefore you cannot end your move within 2" of Unit A if you wish to join unit B.

*sigh* back. Your argument still bears no relation to mine.

I intend to join B, so can move to within 2" of it. I, by my own admittance, do not intend to leave unit A, but nothing in the rules requires me to do so.

Again: find an actual rule. No more "sighing", given you cannot manage to provide a relevant argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You claim that joining B means you have chosen not to join A - which I agree with. However, this is NOT THE SAME as saying that choosing to join B means you LEAVE A

Actually, it does.
If you choose to join B you chose not to join A. By definition.
If you've chosen not to join A, how can you possibly claim to be joined to A?

I was already joined to A. Show when I stopped being joined. Page and Para.

You stopped being joined when you chose not the join A.
Because, as I said,

If you've chosen not to join A, how can you possibly claim to be joined to A?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You claim that joining B means you have chosen not to join A - which I agree with. However, this is NOT THE SAME as saying that choosing to join B means you LEAVE A

Actually, it does.
If you choose to join B you chose not to join A. By definition.
If you've chosen not to join A, how can you possibly claim to be joined to A?

I was already joined to A. Show when I stopped being joined. Page and Para.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your point bears no relation to my argument

Your point is that you cannot join two units at the same time. I havent. I'm ALREADY joined to one unit, and choose to join another.

Find a rule stating this is not possible. Page and paragraph

*sigh*

TG wrote:
If you are part of Unit A, and you move to within 2" of Unit B (with intent to join), then you do not, by your own admittance, intend to join Unit A. Therefore you cannot end your move within 2" of Unit A if you wish to join unit B.

*sigh* back. Your argument still bears no relation to mine.

I intend to join B, so can move to within 2" of it. I, by my own admittance, do not intend to leave unit A, but nothing in the rules requires me to do so.

Again: find an actual rule. No more "sighing", given you cannot manage to provide a relevant argument.

Answer me this
- Do you intend to JOIN unit A? (The unit you are already attached to)

I'm going to get to the bottom of this, because this is the silliest argument i've seen on here in awhile. I'll have to check my rulebook when i get home for some direct pages.

"the player must declare which unit it is joining"

So the "it" in that sentence is referring to the IC. in the description of the IC it says that it is a member of the unit for all rules purposes. Which means if the IC was joined to two units, then the two units would be effectively one. So if you can find anywhere in the book that allows two units to join, then you go right ahead.

TG - NO, I intend to *stay joined to* unit A I *intend* to *join* unit B.

Two different tenses.

Find me a rule talking about already being joined to a unit. Read page 39, note the context is a solo IC being near two units, NOT an IC already joined.

Rigeld.- you seem to struggle with tenses, here. If I am already joined to a unit, I cannot choose to join it unless I first leave it.

Find where I leave it. Page and Para.

So a couple things here.

I think the "must declare if within 2" of multiple units" part of the rules (while poorly worded) is pretty clear that you can only be part of one unit at a time.

Furthermore there are no rules supporting the joining of 2 non independent character units.

I would argue as well that since the IC is part of the unit for all rules pruposes and that memebers of one unit are not allowed to join another he would nto be able to do so.

Do those units become 1? or are they still 2 units?

IF they are 2 units, how does that effect the IC can he shoot at 2 different targets?, or does he choose which one? IF one unit charges and the other does not what happens?

Just in case it wasnt clear - I really do not believe an IC *should* be able to join 2 units at once, however the rules do not convey any such restriction.

Mainly because being joined, and electing to join, are two entirely different concepts that both TG and Rigeld are conflating.

(Choosing to not join A, when I am already joined to A, has no effect on my state )

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld.- you seem to struggle with tenses, here. If I am already joined to a unit, I cannot choose to join it unless I first leave it.

Find where I leave it. Page and Para.

I'm not struggling with tenses at all.

An IC is joined to A. A and the IC move near B, with the IC inside 2".
You must choose to join A or B. (page 39 "If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining.")
If you choose to join A, you also chose not to join B. By definition.
You are attempting to claimed you are joined to B even though you chose not to join B. This is literally impossible.

No, it isnt

You are claiming choosing not to join B affects the fact you are ALREADY joined to B. It does not.

I choose not to join Steam, yet am already a member of Steam. Do I stop being a member of Steam?

Note: you are claiming an inaction causes an action.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it isnt

You are claiming choosing not to join B affects the fact you are ALREADY joined to B. It does not.

You are told to declare which unit you are joining - indicating a singular choice.
If you choose not to join B, and yet still claim to be joined to B then you can not have chosen to not join B.

I choose not to join Steam, yet am already a member of Steam. Do I stop being a member of Steam?

Not a comparable situation, ignoring for irrelevancy.

Note: you are claiming an inaction causes an action.

No. Choosing not to join B is an action.

No, they action I am asked to perform is to choose which unit to join. That is the action.

Not (choosing) is not (an action)

The situation is entirely comparable. Dont ignore it.

Clearly there are two interpretations of common English language happening here.

Both are correct when reading the single rule on its own.

Only one is correct when taking all other rules in conjunction with that single rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
TG - NO, I intend to *stay joined to* unit A I *intend* to *join* unit B.

Two different tenses.

Find me a rule talking about already being joined to a unit. Read page 39, note the context is a solo IC being near two units, NOT an IC already joined.

You are *completely* missing my point.

If you do not intend to join unit A, then:

BRB p.39 wrote:
If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase

(emphasis mine)
If you had taken the care to read my argument correctly, you would have noticed this is what happens:

-IC is attached to A.
-IC wants to join B
-Since it is already joined to A, it does not intend to join A, as you have stated.
-It does not intend to join to A, so "must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the movement phase".

Is it possible to stay more then 2" away from a unit you are part of? Movement rules say no making it impossible to stay 2" away from unit A while joining unit B. The units still wouldn't be joined but would include one model with the benefits and drawbacks of both.

Edit: if they hadn't of said (where possible) you would be right it would prevent it but to compensate for games with area restrictions like zone of mortalis games they included it.....

the page 39 stuff about staying 2" away from units only apply if the IC is not already attached to a unit.

If the IC is attached to a unit then it counts as member of the unit for all rules purposes.

If the IC wants to leave the unit and again become it's own independent unit then it can do so. At the point it can move within 2" of two units, it must then decide WHICH to join. which implies one, OR the other.

If an IC is part of a unit, it cannot combine two units, because two units cannot be joined.

Since this games is rules permissive, it tells you what you can do, it does not say an independent character can be joined to two units at the same time, therefore, it cannot.