Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes, however you are missing the context of the sentence - which is an unjoined IC ending within range of 2 or more eligible units. This is a different situation, not covered on page 39

DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
He has a choice of units to join...

He chooses A then he has not joined B and as such is detached from B by virtue of not joining them...

"If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining."

If you declare A then you are not joining B even though you are within 2 inches of them and as such you leave B if you choose to join A.

That quote does not say what you think it says. Unless otherwise noted, joining unit A only means you are joining unit A and joining unit B only means you are joining unit B. There is no leaving of anything mentioned.

It doesn't need to specifically mention leaving, as declaring which unit you are joining tells us that you are leaving the other unit to which you were attached.

So the rules don't need to specifically say the IC is leaving a unit for it to leave a unit, you just know it happens even though it's not mentioned. Nope, permissive rules say the IC leaves the unit when the rules say it leaves the unit. Period.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:Actually I've just thought of something which goes against the "can be joined to more than one unit" theory.
The rule states that the IC must "choose" which it is joining. Te word "choose" implies a choice between one or more units. If he cannot choose the unit he is already joined to, then there is no choice of units, therefore you cannot "choose". This means the interpretation must be false.

Choosing to join unit B does not detach the IC from unit A as it is written. The only way to do that would be to move more than 2" away from unit A. Barring that action, the IC continues to be part of unit A when it decides to join unit B.

No, my point is, if it must choose one of the units, and according to you unit A is not a valid choice (it can't join again), then there is no "choice". This means your interpretation invalidates part of the RAW, and so must be incorrect.

I never said the IC cannot join the unit it is already with.... It would be pointless now that you bring it up but it is clearly allowed to join it again though it would be pointless as it is already a member.

wargamer1985 wrote:It CLEARLY states an ic becomes a member of the unit it CHOOSES to join and acts like a character while a member oc said unit. It also states CLEARLY that you must choose which unit an IC is attached to at the end of the IC's movement phase.
Lets see some citation of actual rules that allows you to do what ypu claim and not just your opinion as as at least 2 of us have now pointed the rule in its correct use and people who want to do it are giving the opinion they can with no rule back up

No, it distinctly tells you to declare which unit it is joining, not which one it's attached to. This means the rule only cares about how many units the IC is joining and not how many it is attached to.

Edit: Oh and this

 Abandon wrote:

"In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining." -Page 39 BRB

Please read the thread before posting.

Let's assume for the moment that you can join an IC to multiple units.

Then you run into problems - what happens when the units try to move? Can you nominate a unit that has a model that already had a Move (whether or not said model actually moved)?
What about shooting? You nominate Unit A to shoot. You resolve the units shooting. You nominate Unit B to shoot Does the IC get to shoot with his unit? If not, dos Unit B have to shoot at the same target as the IC did? Can the IC even shoot, as he is part of Unit B and Unit B cannot shoot until you resolve Unit A's shooting, and then you are nominating a model in Unit A for shooting when you try to shoot with Unit B.
What about charging? Unit A attempts to charge except they have a model that cannot move as it would have to leave Unit B (which is not allowed except in the Movement phase.

 Happyjew wrote:
Let's assume for the moment that you can join an IC to multiple units.

Then you run into problems - what happens when the units try to move? Can you nominate a unit that has a model that already had a Move (whether or not said model actually moved)?
What about shooting? You nominate Unit A to shoot. You resolve the units shooting. You nominate Unit B to shoot Does the IC get to shoot with his unit? If not, dos Unit B have to shoot at the same target as the IC did? Can the IC even shoot, as he is part of Unit B and Unit B cannot shoot until you resolve Unit A's shooting, and then you are nominating a model in Unit A for shooting when you try to shoot with Unit B.
What about charging? Unit A attempts to charge except they have a model that cannot move as it would have to leave Unit B (which is not allowed except in the Movement phase.

And what happens when unit B falls back?... to many uncovered areas and creates to many broken situations. Clearly not RAI and why it should not be played that way. Just come up with an unwritten rule stating that ICs can only be attached to one unit at a time or something like that. You could call it a house rule but I'm sure it's more of a world rule.

Nos: what context are you reading because as I read at the ic leaves a unit in its movement EVERY turn which is why he must declarevwhich unit key word UNIT btw he is joining. And like you pointed out (i may be thinkin someone else) its a permissive rule set .

Does the rules give you permission yo join multiple units specifically by saying you can NO thefor it is not permitted

Well, I'm definitely adding this to the page of rules problems I pull out when someone starts being a super RaW-git.

I was under the impression that your ICs leave every unit at beginning of your movement phase and aren't part of a unit until the end of your movement phase.

The FAQ also reads as if you are 2" (or less) from a unit, you don't have a choice to join a unit or not. You are automatically part of it. Meaning, an IC can't loiter 1" from another unit and not be in it.

Wargamer - find the rule where it states the IC leaves a unit every movement phase.

No such rule exists in my rulebook.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is no such implication. You certainly cannot state it is RAW.

Buy choosing one you are not choosing the other to join. there is implication.

You must choose to join A or B.
If you choose to join A you chose not to join B.
If you chose not to join B how could you possibly claim to be joined to B?

I think this is the first time I've ever seen deathreaper and rigeld2 agree on something.

Just a curiosity. To the people claiming an IC can be part of more than one unit.

Turn 1: IC joins "Unit A" with stealth
Turn 2: IC joins "Unit B"
Unit B now has stealth, as one of it's members (the IC) has stealth, which it got conferred upon it from the Unit A.
Turn 5: INVISIBLE ARMY!

RAW, this is legal, according to the argument that ICs can join multiple units.

 deviantduck wrote:
I think this is the first time I've ever seen deathreaper and rigeld2 agree on something.

Nah, not the first and not the last.

rigeld2 wrote:
You must choose to join A or B.
If you choose to join A you chose not to join B.
If you chose not to join B how could you possibly claim to be joined to B?

Because I never stopped being joined to B.

Find a rule stating I was no longer joined to B, at the end of the movement phase, such that i had to make that choice.

DR - again, read the context. That context is an unjoined IC ending close to two units. NOt this situation at all. There cannot therefore be an implication.

I don't think anyone disputes that an IC joining two units creates a rules singularity and the game breaks quickly.

However, I still haven't seen anyone point to where it says an IC can't join more than one unit.

P39, i believe, states, an IC can join units (it does use the plural).

And the joining rules stipulate that you must designate which unit you are joining (NOT which unit you are joined to). And that you can only join one unit per movement phase.

I don't see how it can be argued, strictly RAW, that an IC can't become joined to more than one unit - or at least, I haven't been shown or found a reason why this is not the case.

It is definitely a pick-up-your-models-and-play-someone-else ruling, but still RAW.

By virtue of joining, and choosing one unit over the other makes you only able to join one unit at a time.

rigeld2 wrote:
If you choose to join A you chose not to join B.

This is what happens when you end your movement phase within 2 inches of two units.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Te[Sic] word "choose" implies a choice between one or more units. If he cannot choose the unit he is already joined to, then there is no choice of units, therefore you cannot "choose". This means the interpretation must be false.

As far as I can tell, the problem with this thread is that discussing isolated, out of context rules sentences, as been mistaken for a rules discussion. A three letter acronym doesn't change that fact.

Independent characters can join units.

is the same sort of English which states

Men can marry women.

Plural subject, plural object, don't go making assumptions about the allowance for bigamy, or multiple unit membership.

Consider this sentence:

If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase. This is to make clear whether they have joined a unit or not

Combine that with the preceding sentence:

If the independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining.

Singular.

If you have an Independent Character within 2" of two different units, you are likely to be in violation of this statement:

f an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase.

but the rule makes the allowance that you will be permitted to remain in position if you make it clear which one of the two units the Independent Character is joined to.

The independent character is allowed to join one unit, and is required to remain outside of coherency with the units it is not joining, where possible.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - stating "I am joining Steam" (Unit B) does not mean I have to have left Origin.

I am joined to A. I declare I am joining B. Nothing in that statement states I am also leaving A.

Where you are failing is that you have not proven that the rules state you can only be joined to a single unit at a time. If you can prove this, then by default joining B requires leaving A. However this is *not* something you have proved.

And no, this is NOT a "it doesnt say I cant" argument. I have unlimited permission to join units, and no restriciton on how many I join. If you think otherwise, prove it.

But you cannot join Origin to Steam. This is where the Two Units, One Character breaks down. The first unit, of which the IC is currently a member, for all rules and purposes, has no rule permitting it to join with another unit.

DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is no such implication. You certainly cannot state it is RAW.

Buy choosing one you are not choosing the other to join. there is implication.

"In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining."

Not seeing any implication backing up your claim. Please explain how declaring which unit you are joining means you are leaving the unit you are with. I don't see it here.

rigeld2 wrote:You must choose to join A or B.
If you choose to join A you chose not to join B.
If you chose not to join B how could you possibly claim to be joined to B?

If you were already joined to unit B when you joined A and did not move 2 inches away from unit B how can you claim to have left B? Attachments to units are not stated to being exclusive.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You must choose to join A or B.
If you choose to join A you chose not to join B.
If you chose not to join B how could you possibly claim to be joined to B?

Because I never stopped being joined to B.

Find a rule stating I was no longer joined to B, at the end of the movement phase, such that i had to make that choice.

I didn't say you had to make that choice. But since you volunteered to make the choice and you chose !B, then B cannot be true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You must choose to join A or B.
If you choose to join A you chose not to join B.
If you chose not to join B how could you possibly claim to be joined to B?

If you were already joined to unit B when you joined A and did not move 2 inches away from unit B how can you claim to have left B? Attachments to units are not stated to being exclusive.

They are exclusive by virtue of that choice.
Out of 2 options you chose to join A. This means that you chose not to join B. Do you dispute those two statements?
If you chose not to join B, you cannot have joined B (joined being the past tense of join). Do you dispute that statement?
If you have not joined B, you're not with that unit.

There is no support for that exclusion in the rules, though - you're injecting it.

There's no place where it says that ICs can join only one unit, there's no place where the rules say you must leave a unit to join another, and there's no place that says that you must choose which unit you are joined to.

This - a rules discussion - is totally different from the colloquial statement that men can marry women. That is a comparison between a colloquial statement and what is essentially a set of laws - which in many (all?) states in the US specifically preclude a man from marrying many women. What we're discussing here are the rules for 40k.

DeathReaper wrote:By virtue of joining, and choosing one unit over the other makes you only able to join one unit at a time.

rigeld2 wrote:
If you choose to join A you chose not to join B.

This is what happens when you end your movement phase within 2 inches of two units.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Te[Sic] word "choose" implies a choice between one or more units. If he cannot choose the unit he is already joined to, then there is no choice of units, therefore you cannot "choose". This means the interpretation must be false.

You can only join one unit at a time. That point has never been contested and why has already been explained in depth.

Not sure what you're getting at but I might point out that it never tells you to choose. It says "you must declare which unit..." (emphasis mine) A declaration is not the same as a choice.

solkan wrote:As far as I can tell, the problem with this thread is that discussing isolated, out of context rules sentences, as been mistaken for a rules discussion. A three letter acronym doesn't change that fact.

Independent characters can join units.

is the same sort of English which states

Men can marry women.

Plural subject, plural object, don't go making assumptions about the allowance for bigamy, or multiple unit membership.

Consider this sentence:

If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase. This is to make clear whether they have joined a unit or not

Combine that with the preceding sentence:

If the independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining.

Singular.

If you have an Independent Character within 2" of two different units, you are likely to be in violation of this statement:

f an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase.

but the rule makes the allowance that you will be permitted to remain in position if you make it clear which one of the two units the Independent Character is joined to.

The independent character is allowed to join one unit, and is required to remain outside of coherency with the units it is not joining, where possible.

Until the IC leaves a unit it is required to stay in unit coherency. The (where possible) part of that statement makes it possible for the IC to move with a unit without having to leave and rejoin it every movement phase. The unit rules require the IC to end its move within 2 inches. It is not possible to not stay in coherency unless you choose to have the IC leave the unit. It can therefore do so without intending to join the unit it is already with.

Psienesis wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - stating "I am joining Steam" (Unit B) does not mean I have to have left Origin.

I am joined to A. I declare I am joining B. Nothing in that statement states I am also leaving A.

Where you are failing is that you have not proven that the rules state you can only be joined to a single unit at a time. If you can prove this, then by default joining B requires leaving A. However this is *not* something you have proved.

And no, this is NOT a "it doesnt say I cant" argument. I have unlimited permission to join units, and no restriciton on how many I join. If you think otherwise, prove it.

But you cannot join Origin to Steam. This is where the Two Units, One Character breaks down. The first unit, of which the IC is currently a member, for all rules and purposes, has no rule permitting it to join with another unit.

and we did not claim the two units were joined, only that the IC is a member of both. They remain separate units with one shared member.

Gwyidion wrote:
There's no place where it says that ICs can join only one unit, there's no place where the rules say you must leave a unit to join another, and there's no place that says that you must choose which unit you are joined to.

It doesnt need to because of this:

 solkan wrote:

If you have an Independent Character within 2" of two different units, you are likely to be in violation of this statement:

f an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase.

but the rule makes the allowance that you will be permitted to remain in position if you make it clear which one of the two units the Independent Character is joined to.

The independent character is allowed to join one unit, and is required to remain outside of coherency with the units it is not joining, where possible.

But where does the rulebook stipulate that an IC cannot be within 2" of a unit if it is joined to another unit? It doesn't. In fact it explicitly accounts for this possibility and gives you the exact stanza of rules we've been talking about this entire thread.

And, that quote is mis-quoting the rules. You must declare which unit the IC is joining, not "joined to". That makes all the difference.

Again - RAW, not at all HIWPI

 DeathReaper wrote:

Gwyidion wrote:
There's no place where it says that ICs can join only one unit, there's no place where the rules say you must leave a unit to join another, and there's no place that says that you must choose which unit you are joined to.

It doesnt need to because of this:

 solkan wrote:

If you have an Independent Character within 2" of two different units, you are likely to be in violation of this statement:

f an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase.

but the rule makes the allowance that you will be permitted to remain in position if you make it clear which one of the two units the Independent Character is joined to.

The independent character is allowed to join one unit, and is required to remain outside of coherency with the units it is not joining, where possible.

"(where possible)"... in the scenario we are discussing unit coherency forces the IC to end its move within 2 inches of the unit it is already attached to so that rule does not stop it from doing so even if it does not intend to join the unit again that movement phase. It is already a part of the unit for all rules purposes and therefore has no choice but to end it's move in unit coherency.

Gwyidion wrote:
There is no support for that exclusion in the rules, though - you're injecting it.

I've done no such thing.
By definition if you choose to join one thing you have also chosen not to join another.

rigeld2 wrote:

Gwyidion wrote:
There is no support for that exclusion in the rules, though - you're injecting it.

I've done no such thing.
By definition if you choose to join one thing you have also chosen not to join another.

Choosing not to join and leaving are not the same thing.

So AGAIN I call out every single person to point out page number paragraph and sentece number where it states an IC can join multiple units ver several turns and remain part of all previously joined units. Since we have providex the citation to prove you can not. But you still insist you can even without having provided any citation to back your argument up but ihaving in fact backed up yhe other side

wargamer1985 wrote:
So AGAIN I call out every single person to point out page number paragraph and sentece number where it states an IC can join multiple units ver several turns and remain part of all previously joined units. Since we have providex the citation to prove you can not. But you still insist you can even without having provided any citation to back your argument up but ihaving in fact backed up yhe other side

We did... Several times... An IC is clearly able to join one unit per movement phase. Nothing requires him to leave a unit to do so... there is not a rule, hint or implication anywhere that it must leave a unit to join another nor is there any that makes its membership to a unit exclusive.

 Abandon wrote:

wargamer1985 wrote:
So AGAIN I call out every single person to point out page number paragraph and sentece number where it states an IC can join multiple units ver several turns and remain part of all previously joined units. Since we have providex the citation to prove you can not. But you still insist you can even without having provided any citation to back your argument up but ihaving in fact backed up yhe other side

We did... Several times... An IC is clearly able to join one unit per movement phase. Nothing requires him to leave a unit to do so... there is not a rule, hint or implication anywhere that it must leave a unit to join another nor is there any that makes its membership to a unit exclusive.

There is, but you are ignoring it.