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So now that one of the underrated but surprisingly good units in the old 5e codex has gotten even more crazy good in 6e from the new artillery rules but now from Barrage in the new book, I think that this opens up a lot of possibilities that are getting overlooked as everyone goes nuts over grav guns and centurions.

For one thing, the sheer number of barrage shots a Thunderfire cannon can put out every turn means that you're going to start putting wounds on characters you want out of a squad, secondly with Barrage that ADL is now doing nothing to stop your cannon from unleashing horrific devastation upon their gunline. And of course you can pin enemy models and fire indirectly over cover.

Thirdly, with the Iron Hands you can even make them FNP on a six, it's a small thing, but it is most definitely a thing.

And the cherry on top? You're not paying for any of this really, still the same cost as the old gun with no nerfs.

Overall, I think these may just be the real stars of the new codex and a rude surprise to ADL campers like Tau gunlines.

You could ignore ADL cover before with TFC. Only now you get to shoot with str6.

I think TFC is now even better Heavy Support choise, but I dont think they are exactly "stars".

Polecat wrote:
You could ignore ADL cover before with TFC. Only now you get to shoot with str6.

I think TFC is now even better Heavy Support choise, but I dont think they are exactly "stars".

As you said, it could be done before, but you had to use a rather inferior shell as a pay off.

And the TFC seems to be perhaps one of, if not *the* best heavy support slot choice.

I'm not sure the IH chapter tictacs affect it as the cannon itself isn't a vehicle nor has chapter tactics; only the Techmarine does (I guess you can put him in front to take the hits instead, but he dies on a single successful wound).

Still an amazing HS choice. There's too much competition in that slot for C:SM currently; more than even Eldar but this one is probably the top SM one.

I think I'm going to start giving people fits with them in my Vanilla lists even more than I already do.

Especially when the time comes to troll Tau infantry gunlines.

Am I the only one not seeing how being barrage allows you to ignore ADL much with the S6 shot? odds are you wont hit much if at all with indirect shooting.
And most ADL hoggers are T3 anyway, so S5 is enough anyway.
Not needing LoS is nce and all, but usually direct fire is more reliable.

But honestly, I have no idea why people never used it before. when I looked at the C:SM back when I was choosing my army, the TFC was the biggest highlight I've seen in that codex.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Am I the only one not seeing how being barrage allows you to ignore ADL much with the S6 shot? odds are you wont hit much if at all with indirect shooting.

Because when determining cover saves from a barrage weapon, the shot is treated as coming from the center hole of the blast marker.

And most ADL hoggers are T3 anyway, so S5 is enough anyway.

Even if this was the case, a Str 6 shot would then cause ID

Not needing LoS is nce and all, but usually direct fire is more reliable.

True, but with multiple barrage and 4 shots each, it should mitigate the downsides a bit better.

But honestly, I have no idea why people never used it before. when I looked at the C:SM back when I was choosing my army, the TFC was the biggest highlight I've seen in that codex.

I've used them religiously since 6th ed. came out with the better artillery rules. Now they've become even better with the Multiple Barrage rules, pinning, ignoring cover and being able to snipe specific models.

Yep, and even indirect they will score a hit 1/3 of the time. Kinda wish I had a second one.....But basically my heavies will almost always have one.

Anyway, I think that Thunderfire cannons are going to be very popular for allied detachments, even more so than they already are, and in my meta they're already a fan-favorite.

I've always loved mine and when I saw the barrage rule added to them... makes me want to buy a second one. That thing can do amazing damage.

I'm going to try squeezing in an allied detachment so I can plug in a TFC or two for my Siege Assault Vanguard list.

Now multiple story terrain buildings make units immune to the TFC. I'm not sure how much of an "upgrade" this is.

Martel732 wrote:
Now multiple story terrain buildings make units immune to the TFC. I'm not sure how much of an "upgrade" this is.

Compare the number of enemies who hide behind the virtually ubiquitous ADL or other forms of directional cover to the number who try hiding in a building. A building they may not be able to camp in if they want to score. Besides, my primary Siege Assault vanguard list with it's Feel no Pain and rerollable armor save (that I pay a pretty hefty price for among some other drawbacks) is more than tough enough to just ignore infantry fire from said buildings while they steal objectives.

Sadly, I see this quite a bit where I play. It's how the Xenos get around whirlwinds. The TFC already had ignore cover ammo for the ADL.

Martel732 wrote:
Sadly, I see this quite a bit where I play. It's how the Xenos get around whirlwinds. The TFC already had ignore cover ammo for the ADL.

But now you can ignore it with full strength shots and snipe out infantry.

Besides the allied detachment I plan on using for my Ice Dragons SAV list will be Salamanders with enough flamers to burn anyone who thinks they're safe in a building into a crisp while my virtually invincible marines march forward giving less feths than the toughest Necron warrior brick with lots and lots of tanks behind them.

In my experience, it was fine before, just causing brute force wounds. That's really what the game is about anyway. When you barrage snipe, you are working up hill against the LoS mechanic.

If I owned thunderfires, it would really make me nervous that FREE terrain can completely nerf my weapon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't barrage weapons fire as normal blast weapons if they can draw LoS? That gets around the 'top floor of ruins' issue, and prevents the whole shot being wasted by the first scatter being a mess. Adding barrage makes the TFC much stronger than it was though and, I believe, it will be a significant part of any tournament caliber marine lists.

 tomjoad wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't barrage weapons fire as normal blast weapons if they can draw LoS? That gets around the 'top floor of ruins' issue, and prevents the whole shot being wasted by the first scatter being a mess. Adding barrage makes the TFC much stronger than it was though and, I believe, it will be a significant part of any tournament caliber marine lists.

Ah thanks for nipping that fear in the bud.

 tomjoad wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't barrage weapons fire as normal blast weapons if they can draw LoS? That gets around the 'top floor of ruins' issue, and prevents the whole shot being wasted by the first scatter being a mess. Adding barrage makes the TFC much stronger than it was though and, I believe, it will be a significant part of any tournament caliber marine lists.

I believe you are wrong. Direct barrage allows you to deduct Bs, but otherwise it still follows the barrage rules

£30 gets you this...



Plus these



= All kinds of Iron Hand Win!

I am going to great pleasure in spanking all those BA, GK and SW lists that used to p*ss me off in tournaments. Iron Clads, + IWND + 6up Inv for the boys.... Standby for retribution for all the years of obscurity the 10th Legion has had to put up with!

 Illumini wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't barrage weapons fire as normal blast weapons if they can draw LoS? That gets around the 'top floor of ruins' issue, and prevents the whole shot being wasted by the first scatter being a mess. Adding barrage makes the TFC much stronger than it was though and, I believe, it will be a significant part of any tournament caliber marine lists.

I believe you are wrong. Direct barrage allows you to deduct Bs, but otherwise it still follows the barrage rules

There's no such thing as a 'direct barrage.' Barrage weapons can choose to fire indirectly, using the Barrage rules, or they can fire directly, using the normal Blast weapon rules. If they fire indirectly, they can't deduct their BS, even if they have LoS. The BRB is pretty clear about this issue.

 Roboute wrote:

 Illumini wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't barrage weapons fire as normal blast weapons if they can draw LoS? That gets around the 'top floor of ruins' issue, and prevents the whole shot being wasted by the first scatter being a mess. Adding barrage makes the TFC much stronger than it was though and, I believe, it will be a significant part of any tournament caliber marine lists.

I believe you are wrong. Direct barrage allows you to deduct Bs, but otherwise it still follows the barrage rules

There's no such thing as a 'direct barrage.' Barrage weapons can choose to fire indirectly, using the Barrage rules, or they can fire directly, using the normal Blast weapon rules. If they fire indirectly, they can't deduct their BS, even if they have LoS. The BRB is pretty clear about this issue.

Ok, so to clarify, my understanding was correct? I'm afraid I don't have my brb at hand right now...

Those Mantic artillery pieces look awesome, by the way. I ordered them yesterday. Here's to hoping shipping from the UK doesn't take too long, but $45 for three of them just can't be beat!

There's no such thing as a 'direct barrage.' Barrage weapons can choose to fire indirectly, using the Barrage rules, or they can fire directly, using the normal Blast weapon rules. If they fire indirectly, they can't deduct their BS, even if they have LoS. The BRB is pretty clear about this issue.

Barrage weapons always fire as barrage weapons. They can never choose not to. You are confusing firing indirectly as being barrage -- firing indirectly is just one aspect of the barrage rules.

Page 100 is very clear, barrage weapons always hit the top level of a ruin. Its says barrage, not barrage firing indirect.

 Illumini wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't barrage weapons fire as normal blast weapons if they can draw LoS? That gets around the 'top floor of ruins' issue, and prevents the whole shot being wasted by the first scatter being a mess. Adding barrage makes the TFC much stronger than it was though and, I believe, it will be a significant part of any tournament caliber marine lists.

I believe you are wrong. Direct barrage allows you to deduct Bs, but otherwise it still follows the barrage rules

It's rather confusing to me:

It says that Barrage weapons use the rules for blast and large blast weapons, but have an exception where you CAN fire indirectly. This indicates that, if not firing indirectly you treat it as a blast weapon.

However, on pg. 100 under battlefield terrain, it says Barrage weapons always strike the highest level that is under the hole in the center of the marker.

So which one is it?

I'm inclined to agree with you though, that it still follows the barrage rules and as such has to hit the highest level of a building.

I don't think they got better but don't think they got worse. For multiple small blasts Barrage is a double edge sword, as without full scatter if that first blast misses then that shot goes to hell. At least with multiple large blasts you still often hit something even with a big scatter.

It says that Barrage weapons use the rules for blast and large blast weapons, but have an exception where you CAN fire indirectly. This indicates that, if not firing indirectly you treat it as a blast weapon.

That is where the confusion lies. The rules for blast and large blast on page 33 are about rolling to hit and determining wounds and whatnot. Nothing to do with LOS. Barrage would normally need LOS by being a shooting attack (thus being able to use BS to reduce scatter), but can instead use the indirect fire rules if need be.

Otherwise barrage always follows the barrage rules regardless of LOS. So cover is determined by the center hole and based on page 100 always hit the top level of a ruin.

Precisely. Page 100 specifically calls upon "Barrage weapons". Even if you fire using the rules for Blasts or Large Blasts, you're still using a Barrage weapon.

 winterman wrote:

There's no such thing as a 'direct barrage.' Barrage weapons can choose to fire indirectly, using the Barrage rules, or they can fire directly, using the normal Blast weapon rules. If they fire indirectly, they can't deduct their BS, even if they have LoS. The BRB is pretty clear about this issue.

Barrage weapons always fire as barrage weapons. They can never choose not to. You are confusing firing indirectly as being barrage -- firing indirectly is just one aspect of the barrage rules.

Page 100 is very clear, barrage weapons always hit the top level of a ruin. Its says barrage, not barrage firing indirect.

Thanks, this is correct. The main point I was making is that a barrage firing indirect always ignores the firer's BS, but you're right that the bit on page 100 concerns barrage weapons in general, not barrage weapons firing indirectly.

Your later post about Barrage weapons using the center of the blast marker also seems to be correct in that this happens whether the Barrage weapon is firing directly or indirectly. That is absolutely ridiculous! If you fire a Barrage weapon directly, it seems you also still use the Barrage blast placement rules. In fact, after a more careful readthrough, it seems like direct firing is nothing like firing multiple blasts, and there is no reason to fire indirectly unless you actually don't have LoS. Looks like I learned something new today!

So this rules change is indeed a double edged sword.

So, the multiple barrage placement rules are, I'd say, much worse than just firing 4 small blasts and scattering them seperately. However, this is still a very good unit. The multiple barrage rules are just the difference between fielding 3-4 or 1-2 per list. That is, it's strong, but not broken.