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Many of the wargames companies are UK based, and there seems to be more UK players than USA players, in spite of the population in the USA being nearly 5 times larger.

So what gives? Is wargaming a more "mainstream" hobby over there?

Perhaps in some respects. I would also note though, that while the number of wargamers in the US is most likely higher (just due to the size you mention) it may FEEL more dispersed just because of the distances involved. Once you account for this dispersion, it makes gaming feel less mainstream.

I think it's just always been more popular historically going back decades. Many early wargames came from the UK. It is similar to how Germany has always been the fatherland for board games.

I think you're jumping to conclusions based off anecdotal, and indeed online anecdotal, evidence. I would be very surprised if there are more wargamers in the UK total than in the USA. While it is possible that as a percentage of the population it is more popular, without some solid statistics (perhaps from sales data) it would be speculation and nothing more.
I certainly would not call it a mainstream hobby here, although with it being a smaller population (especially here in Scotland where there's only 4.6million or so of us), knowledge of its existence is perhaps more common.

 Kyrolon wrote:
Perhaps in some respects. I would also note though, that while the number of wargamers in the US is most likely higher (just due to the size you mention) it may FEEL more dispersed just because of the distances involved. Once you account for this dispersion, it makes gaming feel less mainstream.

Population density is a large part of it really.

The UK is 243,610 square KM. Density of 255.6 per square KM.
The US is 9,826,000 square KM. Density of 34.2 per square KM.

For wargaming to really take off, it needs a large population in a small area. There's probably more gamers in the US than in the UK, but they are spread out over 40 times as much area, The more density means bigger clubs, better community and overall better gaming environment.

 Kyrolon wrote:
Perhaps in some respects. I would also note though, that while the number of wargamers in the US is most likely higher (just due to the size you mention) it may FEEL more dispersed just because of the distances involved. Once you account for this dispersion, it makes gaming feel less mainstream.

Well, GW may not be the entire hobby, as well as being UK biased, but their numbers are pretty clear.




30.9 Million Revenue UK alone
39.4 Million Revenue the entire rest of Europe (Germany, France, Spain, Poland all have pretty active hobby scenes)
36.6 Million North America (incl. Canada).

Divide that by population, and UK comes out far ahead of anything else. (USA ~313 Million vs. UK ~ 62 Million?... not even counting Canada)

Notably, Australia is pretty mad too, despite all their mistreatment from GW. With only about 1/3rd of the UK population (~22 Million?) they make about 1/3rd of GW's UK revenue. So I don't think population density is it. Australia has lots of empty space, but they game as much as UK-people do.

Population density and in GW's case store saturation.

In the UK there are literally hundreds of stores and in populated areas it's my understanding that there's a store in just about every large area that means that wargaming is a far more visable venture. Meawhile in the US there are far fewer stores, which additionally suffer from being a mx of independant comic and game stores that only focuses a portion of their attention and sales to wargaming.

IL for example only has 12 GW locations (and around 40-50 independants) yet its spread across a vastly larger area than the UK. (IL is also one of the largest sales bases for GW)

The Uk likely outnumbers the IL store count by several hundred, which means that their exporse level to people on the whole is much greater, chances are much higher that in the UK the average teenager is much more familiar with GW's product range than teenagers in the US. While it's become much more widespread over the last two decades gaming and comics are still a bit of a smaller subculture within the US.

In order for a wargaming group to take root you need a centralized location, which if you are in the UK is typically in your immediate area or at most the next town over. Due to the much greater distances that players are spread over in the US you often have people who needs to travel a good distance to get to a games/comics store let alone one that specializes in GW or other wargamming. In most cases apathy wins over if people can't play it locally they won't bother with a 40-60minute drive and will instead seek out something else more local ofr they do their gaming online via xbox or PS.

In my area the closest gaming store where I can buy GW and PP material in-person is 30 miles away. And being in Western Michigan, the closest GW store (and the only one in the entire state) is in the Detroit area, which would be a 6-hour round trip for me. Population density has a TON to do with it.

Illinois here, I'm actually shocked to learn there are 12 GWs here :p I'm in the southern bit (y'all?), and while my small town has a couple of little stores they both do primarily magic and maybe comic books (one is a group of friends, the other is some angry old man who is in business for reasons I cannot fathom, neither is of any use). So, I can drive an hour west to get to a pretty cool game store (though I haven't had a chance to both go AND play in years and years), or 60-75 minutes south for a store that I generally favor less. I think the closest GW is at least a couple of hours away, but fantasy/40k aren't my current interests anyway.

I randomly got into the hobby via a 3rd ed 40k starter box, and somehow through the years I've clung to my interest on and off, though motivation has been scarce. I would love to have this UK situation of tons of people to play with locally. I had one buddy who was about as interested as me, but that is less the case now and these forums are basically my only hobby outlet. I've given up trying to get people into the hobby (mostly GW, I may talk someone into infinity, its *almost* affordable), due to lack of interest and cost.

A shift to painting is all that has me doing this instead of re-subbing my wow account (or similar).

Helpful? Hopefully

I used to have my choice of three hobby stores in the area, but two of them died off over the years and years since I have been into 40K. There are just lots of places that wargaming is underrepresented in the US. The store I can buy PP and GW models in person from is actually a Rider's Hobby shop, with a section for each company. When I take a trip into places like Chicago, I am on cloud nine, and can spend three hours in a hobby shop there just browsing.

Most of my minis come from GW direct online or The Warstore/Miniature Market as I am really stuck for lack of choice.

 Zweischneid wrote:

So I don't think population density is it. Australia has lots of empty space, but they game as much as UK-people do.

Yeah we have heaps of empty space, but really the vast majority of people live on a stretch of coast (and a bit inland from that) a couple of thousand KM long. So that probably helps keep us pretty condensed for things like gaming.

I mean, according to wiki we have 23,183,942 people all up in the country. In the three capitol cities on that coast (1700km from the furthest north to the furthest south, so not too far) we have 11,063,568 people, so half of our population, with probably another third or something in and around those cities.

You also have to take into account other activities.
Depending on location, you have Football (American), Soccer, Baseball, skiing, ocean activities (surfing/swimming/), camping activities (camping, RVing, fishing, hunting, hiking), Automotive hobbies (car racing, custom car shows, cruising)...the list goes on that compete for time and attention. Add to it a climate more mild than England and that means people wanting to do more outdoor activities. The thought of spending a gorgeous summer day inside a dark smelly room pushing plastic toys around just never crosses most people imaginations.

To be honest, we have all those activities too, (even American football!). I don't think that really has anything to do with how much folk are into wargames. I hike, camp, mountain bike, play tennis, and occasionally take my sports car for a thrash around the highlands, and none of these things are a factor in why I play wargames. Maybe impacts why I play wargames with a lot of grey plastic, but that's about it.

The "other activities" explanation doesn't make any sense. MTG started in the US and is still huge here, and it should suffer just as much from things like football.


IMO it's probably just a random fact of history. For a long time (non-historical) wargaming meant GW, and GW is a UK-based company without much US presence. They probably had enough presence in the US market to prevent a rival from establishing themselves as the dominant US game, but not enough stores to get random people to come in and buy stuff. And the trend continues, the population density in the UK lets GW put a store in high-traffic retail areas, which means lots of kids (who may or may not ever play the game) buying space marines. In the US, on the other hand, GW stores are usually in mostly-abandoned strip malls instead of high-traffic locations so GW only attracts the dedicated customers who are interested enough to go out and find a store.

If GW had started in the US or stopped being incompetent long enough to realize that the US isn't the UK and build a proper sales strategy GW games could probably be a lot more popular here.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
In my area the closest gaming store where I can buy GW and PP material in-person is 30 miles away. And being in Western Michigan, the closest GW store (and the only one in the entire state) is in the Detroit area, which would be a 6-hour round trip for me. Population density has a TON to do with it.

Not exclusively. When I was growing up the nearest shop that stocked wargames (mostly GW at the time, nothing at all now) was 65 miles away and the nearest GW was about 200. That didn't stop the formation of a (very) small gaming club at my school.

Wargames Illustrated ran an article on this subject a couple of years ago and IIRC it basically boils down to the UK having a much stronger history of wargaming than the US. Its not just GW games either, the figures that WI came up with showed approximately equal numbers of wargamers in the UK and US.

Its possible that GW in particular is seen as more mainstream in the UK due to its shops but at the same time it is also seen as a hobby for children and tragically geeky men if its references in popular culture are anything to go by.

 Palindrome wrote:
Not exclusively. When I was growing up the nearest shop that stocked wargames (mostly GW at the time, nothing at all now) was 65 miles away and the nearest GW was about 200. That didn't stop the formation of a (very) small gaming club at my school.

Yeah, but the key word here is "small". You're always going to have a non-zero number of people interested in the hobby (and determined enough to overcome obstacles in buying stuff), but population density makes a huge difference in how big that group is.

 Peregrine wrote:

Yeah, but the key word here is "small". You're always going to have a non-zero number of people interested in the hobby (and determined enough to overcome obstacles in buying stuff), but population density makes a huge difference in how big that group is.

Perhaps but in my case the available population of around 1000 gave a group with 6 members. Population density does help of course but its not a vital factor.

The UK is seething with sporting and cultural activities outside wargaming. I really don't think it is a factor.

I also think population density is not a major factor. The urbanisation rate of the USA is 82%. The rate of the UK is 79%. Very similar, though it may be a factor that travel distance in the UK are shorter than the USA, meaning that the 21% rural population in the UK are much closer to places they could find wargame facilities.

However we are only guessing that the GW figures represent the number of wargamers in each country.

One thing also that is different between the UK/Aus and US wargaming scenes is the location gaming takes place. In the UK and Oz there is a preponderance of independent clubs that meet in church halls and above pubs. It appears that this doesn't occur very often in the US where the norm is for people to be very dependent on commercial stores.

We could talk all day as to why this might be - maybe there's something in the much more commercial-orientated society in the US cf the UK, or perhaps it has something to do with dispersal of population, or price and availability of suitable space. Who knows?

I do know that in the UK it is relatively easy to find a group of like-minded individuals within a short distance, and that independent clubs are a much more low-intensity way of learning to game - no pressure to buy from a store owner, "any game goes", lots time and space for kids, flexibility of hours, etc. In fact I took my 2 boys (ages 10 and 12) to a

I'm not dissing stores - they are an essential and well-loved part of the scene, and of course they provide a lot of much-loved gaming. But I do know that personally, given the choice, I'd rather play in an independent club over a store any day. In fact if the only gaming available to me was in a store, I might have packed up the hobby decades ago. And I suspect that there may be many folks in the US/Canada that would be happy to play in a club environment, were one available to them, who don't fancy the more "high intensity" environment of a commercial store.

 Palindrome wrote:
Perhaps but in my case the available population of around 1000 gave a group with 6 members. Population density does help of course but its not a vital factor.

But that's only 1000 people in a single school, with no store nearby to draw new customers. Compare that to a town where all 20,000 people walk by the local GW store every day. Even if the percentage of people who are interested at all in wargames isn't any higher a lot more of them will be aware of the game, and there will be a lot of kids who beg their parents for space marines and contribute to GW's sales numbers without ever playing the game.

It's because it's boring over here in England and it rains all the time.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
It's because it's boring over here in England and it rains all the time.

Winner!

I don't know. I am massive comic nerd (I work in a comic shop here in the UK) and I often wonder why comics aren't as popular here.

It's a cultural thing. I remember at school at lunch playing 'army' and at christmas getting model planes and cars to build, just like my Dad did as a kid. I think possibly it's a generational thing. In the city I live in (one of the smallest cities in England) we have 1 independent model store (which sells GW stuff), 1 chain model store (which sells GW stuff) and 1 GW and then just on the edge of town one Independent gaming store that sells everything. Oh and then the comic store I work in has a small GW range. That's a lot of GW vendors all within walking distance of my house.

There is a gaming club every night of the week, in some cases multiple (on a Thursday evening there are 3 including the GW one). I think maybe it's just more accessible here. It still costs a fortune but if it's everywhere, it doesn't seem that expensive.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
It's because it's boring over here in England and it rains all the time.

Only boring people get bored, that's what me Nan used to say anyway.

As to weather, it was my recollection from A-Level geography that the UK is the very model of a mild climate. Nothing too hot, nothing too cold and nothing lethal. So I don't think that's it.

I would suggest that as demoted here that wargaming seems to be more popular here in the UK (as a proportion of population) if the above financials are anything to go by. Also as alluded to I would agree that its infrastructure that keeps it on the public purview or at least as far as those of a gaming bent are concerned.

GW helps with this by being a ubiquitous high street presence (I'd guess in most towns over 100,000 pop.) as does the dearth of online wargaming stores and gaming/miniature companies but the biggest influence is the many clubs here. A community hub like these really helps to establish and expand player bases in a way that I'm not sure a shop will do. The fact that we pay into a club automatically make you vested in it's continuation and expansion which isn't the case with a shop.

A shop obviously (and rightly) has the overriding concerns of the owners at its core. So in a situation where this is the main community hub it will inevitably favour whatever brings in margin, (MTG over wargames), directed by the owners preferences and ultimately his/her arbitration. The club community is run (via committee) to the consensus of the community which being more inclusive will help to perpetuate the community base.





Oh and also because UK rocks - Amurika sux!

While clubs and high street shops (I mean as an entry point to the hobby, not as a gaming venue) are apparently more common in the UK than the USA, that might be a result of the popularity of wargames rather than a cause.

Also, the shop-centric playing culture of the USA is largely among GW players. Historicals are pretty popular in the US and AFAIK are played in clubs and at home, not in shops.

It appears that this doesn't occur very often in the US where the norm is for people to be very dependent on commercial stores. 

Not as much as you might be lead to believe. Most gaming in the US happens in homes, not stores or clubs. Ask any store owner how many of their customers play in store and they will let you know it is a very small percentage, and that doesnt even account for all those who buy online and have left B&M stores behind.

While the percentage of the population might higher in the UK, though honestly I would be surprised if it was. If you look at other indicators like convention attendance and what not, we have a lot of gamers...they just are often not playing GW games, and usually not playing in stores. I am sure that one of the Dakka Admin could give a traffic breakdown for here, but other sites have 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 traffic from the US versus the UK.

When you place that against the back drop of the GW financials, we are not spending 2 or 3 to 1 on their stuff...but we are spending.

Anecdotal evidence - I'm having to travel way further to get a game now I'm back in the UK than I did in Vancouver.

There seemed to be tonnes of gamers in the PNW on both sides of the border so maybe it's just that some cities tend to draw in people who like gaming? Given that the west coast of the USA and Canada is well stocked for games companies, video game companies and film companies this probably isn't surprising.

I think GWs overall marketing(lack of) & business practices have really hindered its growth in the US. Particularly in recent years with the economy. Yes I know they have grown, but not at nearly the rate that they could have. They should have taken the Walmart approach, cheap items but tons of volume, grown your base, bring in more & more young players because they can afford it. Yes you make way less $ per model but if done right your volume will grow exponentially as popularity increases. Instead they have made themselves the Banana Republic of war gaming(or maybe Sears judging by how quick their stores are closing), a successful business, but not when compared to Walmart.

Yes I know these are flawed analogies, but you get my point.

Here's a question for our UK members:

Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games even if they do not play them? I ask because at one of my jobs of about 40 people that are there, I was the only one with any familiarity with them. Nobody had heard of them and the overwhelming majority of my coworkers were befuddled by the concept even after I spend some time trying to explain it to them.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
While clubs and high street shops (I mean as an entry point to the hobby, not as a gaming venue) are apparently more common in the UK than the USA, that might be a result of the popularity of wargames rather than a cause.

Also, the shop-centric playing culture of the USA is largely among GW players. Historicals are pretty popular in the US and AFAIK are played in clubs and at home, not in shops.

I couldn't really comment on the Historicals crowd being club and home gamers as my FLGS has 3 main gaming nights, Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. Friday nights is a mix of w/e we feel like playing, which has been dominated by Bolt Action the past month, Thursdays is always historicals, and Saturdays is always Flames of War.

Though to be fair, 40k is the dominant game at his second store, which only has open gaming on Saturdays.