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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/17 09:52:57
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Boosting Space Marine Biker
midlands UK
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cuz were cool
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Blood Ravens, 1700pts
Empire 40 wounds
Astra Militarum 2250pts
Khorne 750pts
Space Wolves 1550pts
Orks 500pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/17 09:57:29
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
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Alex Kolodotschko wrote: marielle wrote:
The UK has a history of magazines, sold in high street shops, that have either been specifically about wargaming, i.e. Battle, or had a wargaming section Airfix Magazine and Military Modeller spring to mind for historicals. White Dwarf is the most obvious example for fantasy/sci fi - though their were others.
WH Smiths( UK's largest newsagent at virtually every train/bus station and every town centre) has now stopped stocking White Dwarf,
Smiths may have stopped, but Sainsburys at least still stocks it.
When a high-street shop stops selling something, blame supermarkets
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/17 11:58:16
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Youngblood13 wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:It describes the history well, however the question is why the US preferred map based games to miniatures?
Well, that's what the history was intended to illustrate. Wargaming simply evolved differently on either side of the Atlantic. In the United States, the hobby was dominated by board- and counter-based wargames and, later, roleplaying games. In Great Britain, historical miniature-based wargames caught on in a much bigger way. It's tough to come up with a really solid answer beyond that as so many factors were at play. ...
...
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Yes, valid points. I think the British tradition of Britain's toy soldiers must have had some influence.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/17 12:30:20
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Phobos wrote:Here's a question for our UK members:
Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games even if they do not play them? I ask because at one of my jobs of about 40 people that are there, I was the only one with any familiarity with them. Nobody had heard of them and the overwhelming majority of my coworkers were befuddled by the concept even after I spend some time trying to explain it to them.
if you say "wargame" in the US you'll likely get someone thinking you:
1. play paintball or the soft bb game.
2. more likely are talking about a video game.
Is the video game industry big in the UK? Its absolutely massive here. That may be a factor. Automatically Appended Next Post: Phobos wrote:Now that was a great answer!
And clearly explains why many people here have heard of Dungeons and Dragons or at least recognize the name even if they have no idea exactly what it is, whereas Warhammer will often bring blank stares.
Indeed. Brilliant.
Ah Avalon Hill. Now THEY made wargames.
Panzerblitz uber alles!!!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 12:36:30
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/17 13:48:34
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit
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The videogame industry is huge here. We just released gtav.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/17 14:16:05
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
Back in the UK and hating it
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I'd take the PNW over the UK any day, and I've lived in both!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 14:16:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/17 18:16:09
Subject: Re:Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Slippery Scout Biker
Philadelphia, PA
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Jehan-reznor wrote:I don't agree,
I blame H.G Wells's Little wars and There has always been a strong scene of historical reenactment in GB (miniatures and real)
Little Wars appeared in 1913, went out of print and faded into obscurity. It would probably be remembered today only by H.G. Wells scholars if not for the fact that a guy who read the pamphlet as a child cited it as igniting his love of the very idea of wargaming. That guy was Donald Featherstone. Although you may not realize it, part of the reason that you're pointing to Little Wars to disagree with me about Featherstone's influence is, ironically, Featherstone's influence.
Even though Little Wars ignited his love of wargaming, he never actually got to play a wargame until he was pushing forty. He played against Tony Bath, who had come up with his own set of wargaming rules but lamented that he was unable to find an opponent. Ever. He also complained of the difficulties involved in securing the necessary figures, as the only company producing ancients was in Germany and refused to export them to the UK. (The eventual solution that early British wargamers came up with was getting friends in the military to send back some figures to be recast using plaster of Paris molds.) Trying to find sources for wargaming miniatures put Featherstone in touch with Jack Scruby, who was literally the only guy in the world making miniatures specifically for wargaming. Not only that, but he was actually putting out rulesets and even a newsletter.
I get what you and Kilkrazy are saying. People collected toy soldiers in Britain. However, they did that in every country, which is why Bath fretted about getting toy soldiers from Germany to play his wargame. And the supposedly "strong scene" that you're talking about was basically the British Model Soldier Society which, circa the mid-1950s, had a handful of members worldwide. Bath published his rules in the BMSS journal before meeting Featherstone, but noted that he had never actually played them because he couldn't find an opponent. Featherstone was his first opponent, and he was so jazzed by the experience that he devoted the rest of his life to popularizing miniature-based wargaming in Britain.
I'm not making this up. The history of wargaming has been lovingly and painstakingly documented by wargamers themselves. In exhaustive detail. (Probably way more detail than is really necessary, but we're talking about old school grognards here so that's to be expected.) There were some experiments before the 1950s ( Little Wars in the UK, Shambattle and Fletcher Pratt's Naval Wargame in the US), but the history of the hobby as we know it, on both sides of the Atlantic, started in the mid-1950s.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 18:16:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/17 18:26:28
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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That is absolutely true, and chimes in with my list of wargames in the media starting from 1956 -- the British Pathe feature on Peter Cushing Napoleonic wargamer.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/18 01:10:04
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I remember when Ral Partha was putting out the majority of miniatures in the 25mm range and had quite a selection. Their problem was they never put money back into product development for their new lines. So really each new product resembled the previous ones. I mean really I still have a lot of them and my English Pikemen resemble my Thracian spearmen. Silly really. Also RP would have taken off if they had developed their own rules sets and fluff. I started with GW in 1993 (for fantasy and SciFi) and never looked back.
- J
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"Others however will call me the World's Sexiest Killing Machine, that's fun at parties." - Bender Bending Rodriguez
- 3,000 points, and growing!
BFG - 1500 points
WFB Bretonnia - 2200 points (peasant army).
WAB Ancient Israeli (Canaanites) 2500 points
WAB English 100 Years War (3000 points). |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/18 02:50:37
Subject: Re:Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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My US point of view is that playing a video game is a lot easier than painting up minis, so average US kid plays videos. And I believe the mass of distractions available in the US, supported by shall we say garish advertising has an effect as well. Have yet to see an ad with hot blondes hanging on guys rolling dice to see how many 28mm plastic Orks get blasted.
Also believe the club thing in the UK is a factor. Seems to be a weather related phenomenon that has evolved over the decades. Being of an age that was heavily influenced by the British rock invasion of the 60's, I always felt that the Beatles evolved in a way that would never have happened in the US because we were all watching TV while the British kids were going out to the rock clubs because the BBC radio and TV sucked. So the Beatles and the others had an audience while we were watching TV in the living room.
And the Brits always had a reputation for making great tin soldiers while we played with cheap rubber 'toys' as kids and wouldn't be caught dead playing with 'army dolls' as my wife calls them once into our teens.
The history lesson on Avalon Hill versus D&D makes sense as well. Personally, I never went near D&D as it seemed to be populated with wand toting geeks, but loved GW when I came across it 12 years ago because I loved painting military models and you could play a game with them. Also helps that I like posting battle reports and getting comments from all over the world, but that's another story....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/18 03:46:03
Subject: Re:Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Youngblood13 wrote: Jehan-reznor wrote:I don't agree,
I blame H.G Wells's Little wars and There has always been a strong scene of historical reenactment in GB (miniatures and real)
Little Wars appeared in 1913, went out of print and faded into obscurity. It would probably be remembered today only by H.G. Wells scholars if not for the fact that a guy who read the pamphlet as a child cited it as igniting his love of the very idea of wargaming. That guy was Donald Featherstone.
I win!
Just kidding, Ever since childhood, On TV there was always elderly retired militairy guys playing with tin soldiers, maybe they were not playing Little wars but Kriegsspiele?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/18 03:48:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 16:32:37
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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What evidence is there that war gaming is so much more popular in the UK than the US?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 16:41:42
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Old Sourpuss
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Manchu wrote:What evidence is there that war gaming is so much more popular in the UK than the US?
Manchu, you're losing it old boy, you just necro'd a thread
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 17:04:07
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Eh, it's not that old (3 months is on the line). There have been some good posts ITT but what strikes me is how most people assume the question has merit. I'd just like to know what evidence supports that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 20:43:04
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
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Nice post YoungBlood13, enjoyed reading it. There is actually an obituary on Donald Featherstone in the latest Wargames Illustrated (he sadly passed away recently) which is definitely worth reading.
Manchu wrote:What evidence is there that war gaming is so much more popular in the UK than the US?
I suppose we would need to see sales of wargaming for both the UK and US. That there are so many companies operating out of the UK, a much smaller country proportionately, would make me inclined to guess that it is more popular in the UK (in terms of percentage of populous).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 21:49:42
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator
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I would hazard a guess that here in South Florida (Where population is pretty dense) that there are VERY few gamers... I'd wager I've only met (in my area Ft. Lauderdale / Miami / Palm Beach) maybe 20 - 30 different people that game all the time. That's a lot of people that don't.
As was said, it's a UK company, and obviously it'll be bigger where it was made, they advertise more and are more saturated by it. I'd wager that most states have a VERY small community. When I lived in Vermont.. no one knew about it, and there's only one place to play really, in Burlington... and there are very few people there. USA is very spread out.. but overall I'd figure it's hard to say. Just not well advertised here.
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You don't see da eyes of da Daemon, till him come callin'
- King Willy - Predator 2 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 21:54:36
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Hellacious Havoc
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:57:53
Subject: Re:Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
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Take out a new White Dwarf. Look at the store section and compare uk to USA (or even the rest of the world).
When I think of wargaming I think of the uk. The fact there is so many uk manufactures means that more uk people can find out about the hobby there. All the stores means that people might walk in and have a look and strart. The fact wargaming was pretty much founded in the uk.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 16:22:01
Subject: Re:Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
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dakkajet wrote:Take out a new White Dwarf. Look at the store section and compare uk to USA (or even the rest of the world).
The reason for the UK's concentration of GW stores is probably not popularity, but population distribution.
The US appears to be built around cities, with large sprawling suburbs.
The UK is more large towns, with fewer cities. There's less chance we'd travel to a city to buy stuff, than for someone to open a store in their town.
With so much around us that points to historical military, we can hardly avoid references to things wargames build on.
Every town had a Butts, for every male of a certain age to practice their archery skills, by law.
The Roman invasion left barracks and forts all over the country.
There were invasions (Vikings), civil wars (Roundheads and Royalists), wars of independence (Scotland), the Blitz, massive development of warmachines (aircraft and tanks) and so on. Then, there's the navy. Most large towns and cities on the coast have defences, and lots have ports for warships.
Walk through London and look at how many buildings had chunks blown out of them during the early '40s.
The UK has been battered by battles for ever, and tales of the British Empire's expansions flooded back home for a long time.
So, any old soldier with time on his hands who doesn't want to sit just talking about the old days, might want to relive some of the battle he survived. Throw in some 'what-if', and you have wargames.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 16:36:34
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Lit By the Flames of Prospero
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I would hazard a bet that GW is more popular because of the placement of its high street stores in prime areas of high foot traffic. There is a store in every big city and some towns.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 17:51:18
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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Manchu wrote:What evidence is there that war gaming is so much more popular in the UK than the US?
I think the hard evidence is the sales figures from GW, but perhaps Americans just play more games by other companies.
It seems to be about the same to me, but I do think that the larger distances over here must surely play a part, everywhere is so much more spaced out, I can imagine it being more of a pain in the arse to get a game in. Add in some California traffic, and I can see why people would ignore the urge to drive 22 miles to have a game, and simply play DOW on the internet instead!
I personally disagree with the premise and think its probably about the same in both the US and the UK, I havent had any difficulty meeting people to play with since I arrived, and I would postulate that rather than wargaming being more popular, GW is more popular.
But as we all know, GW isn't wargaming, its GW, and I bet PP sell ten times the product here than in the UK.
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 21:40:57
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Unstoppable Bloodthirster of Khorne
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notprop wrote:
A shop obviously (and rightly) has the overriding concerns of the owners at its core. So in a situation where this is the main community hub it will inevitably favour whatever brings in margin, ( MTG over wargames), directed by the owners preferences and ultimately his/her arbitration. The club community is run (via committee) to the consensus of the community which being more inclusive will help to perpetuate the community base.
That's a good point. My local-ish games store keeps (trying to) introduce new games which is at least partly in order to expand the sales that are made by his regular clientele. it does him no special good when people finish their <insert game/faction> army/force and don't feel a need to expand it or buy another one...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 22:23:56
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
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I would expect more US gamers to have the space to play at home considering US homes are on average larger than homes in the UK.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 23:04:49
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
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The USA most gamers tend to gather at homes than at stores ..We have always had to mail order gaming stuff the internet is just another easier way to mail order stuff in ..distances being what they are ..We also have a LARGE variety of wargmes avaible to us ..not just the ~50th scale skirmish sized games such as GW 40k or PP ..We have 5mm thru 10mm Armies ..15 mm Brigades..hex based Maps with cardboard chits for WWI, II, III, scifi , historical etc etc etc ~4000 scale global conflict, ~400 scale Mecha Conflict games, etc etc etc all at our fingertips ..what we do not have is easy access gaming store saturation just a few here and there. in larger towns ..and only medium sized cities or bigger have more than one
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'\ ' ~9000pts
' ' ~1500
" " ~3000
" " ~2500
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 23:06:30
Subject: Re:Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Has climate been brought up? I wonder if the UK's brand of weather might encourage people to develop indoor interests which could lead to more wargamers by virtue of being confined to the house (especially at younger ages) for longer periods of time.
I know growing up in Southern California I was always envious of the players in other parts of the US that seemed to have naturally occurring gaming populations. States in the mid-west, north-east, and eastern seaboard all appeared to have larger groups of gamers than what I found in SoCal, and I couldn't help but wonder if weather played a part in that observation. Most of the big gaming conventions in the US are also held in those regions, though some west coast conventions are picking up steam. Still, when 3-6 months of the year are taken up by crappy weather it makes a certain kind of sense that you would shelter in place and roll dice rather than be caught in a storm or the cold.
No hard facts to be found in the musings above, merely my own curiosity on the subject being typed out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 23:20:15
Subject: Re:Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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original theory false
please kill for stupidity
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/11/27 20:17:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/27 02:08:30
Subject: Re:Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Powerful Irongut
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Donut64 wrote:I postulate that, no there aren't more people who play Wargames in the UK than in the US.
The UK has a higher per capita income, meaning that everyone has more hobby money than those in the US. Combine this with shorter travel times for games, and shorter travel times in general meaning less money spent on gas, the average US gamer for Wargames is going to have a LOT less money to spend.
Strange though how US has the higher point average for "listed" games. I'll argue that since folks play at home more in the US (I've only played a wargame in a store once, over 5+ years of it), it's even more local than in the UK. By extension, most people in the US who buy GW stuff maybe have only a few boxes of minis and play whenever convenient.
And based on a bunch of anecdotal evidence, I'd say there are more total people who play wargames in the US than any other country in the world. However it is almost certainly true that they are more spread out, and most of them spend less on the hobby than their overseas counterparts, meaning the sales output from the US might be smaller than it is in the UK. I would like to point out that the middle-north-east of the US, around Ohio/Indiana/Illinois/Michigan, seems to carry the most TT wargame weight (probably because Ral Partha was based in Ohio).
Local store argument? Valid for exposure, but not valid for continuing sales as the vast majority of folks eligible for 40k are, by now, used to ordering their items online anyway. That's probably way GW wants exclusivity for the online market because that's how the majority of folks in the US will be getting their minis.
I'm pleased to see that jingoism is alive and well. Automatically Appended Next Post: Alex Kolodotschko wrote: marielle wrote:
The UK has a history of magazines, sold in high street shops, that have either been specifically about wargaming, i.e. Battle, or had a wargaming section Airfix Magazine and Military Modeller spring to mind for historicals. White Dwarf is the most obvious example for fantasy/sci fi - though their were others.
WH Smiths( UK's largest newsagent at virtually every train/bus station and every town centre) has now stopped stocking White Dwarf, iirc from chatting to my GW Account Manager it was because they were squeezing for more money off. Why GW didn't give the magazines to them for free or an insane discount is a complete mystery to me.
It was a first exposure for many of us (mainly due to the cool front covers) and a catalyst to go and find a GW store. I'm sure it's going to hurt wargaming in the long run.
Indeed, but WH Smiths is not the be all and end all, and I believe Martins still stocks White Dwarf - as do the supermarkets - and Dragon magazine far outsold WD, back in the day - but I somehow doubt you have ever heard of it.
However I was speaking of when WH Smith did stock the magazines I was referring to, which since you are obsessed with GW, carried advertisements for Citadel, Marauder etc. And of course the Tyne Tees TV series the Battleground with Edward Woodward should not be disregarded in this respect.
byw... I doubt the withdrawl of WD will have the chicken licken effect you suggest on wargaming, as Smiiths still stock Miniature Wargaming, WSS, and Wargames Illustrated - which following your logic will only be a good thing for the hobby as it will produce a generation of gamers free from the OCD of the GW generation.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/27 02:31:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/27 06:38:00
Subject: Re:Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I'm pleased to see that jingoism is alive and well.
I am incredibly, incredibly confused...
No, I get jingoism, but..
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/27 06:38:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/27 10:47:04
Subject: Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Repentia Mistress
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Relic of Empire
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/27 13:59:51
Subject: Re:Why is wargaming so much more popular in the UK than the USA?
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Oberstleutnant
Back in the English morass
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marielle wrote:[
And of course the Tyne Tees TV series the Battleground with Edward Woodward should not be disregarded in this respect.
A wargaming Tv series in the 70's, I never would have guessed that such a thing existed. http://wargaming4grownups.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/edward-woodward-battleground.html
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The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog |
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