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It's not like they really need them anymore.
CSM are supposed to hate normal marines and all they get is an opportunity to buy hatred (and an extra Ld point in the bargain).

You ask like GW 40K books get updates regularly and they forgot something. The book was made a few years ago.

I am not sure what your question is. What am I missing?

Grey Knight are a chapter formed for the Inquisition to hunt demons...

If you didn't know that, then you should seriously read up on the fluff of the game, Or people are going to start thinking your a troll.

The Daemons codex is substantially better than the Grey Knights codex at the minute, which seems to be finding itself lagging behind in the current power struggle between Tau and Eldar.

I've always maintained that Daemons can give Grey Knights more than a fair fight.

Iranna.

It's true that Grey Knights have some tools that will really screw over a Daemon's day. BUT - the worst of these comes on units that tend to come in limited numbers. Dark Excommunication - the big one - only comes on Dreadknights. You're only taking 3 of those maximum. The other really bad problem, Warp Quake, was rendered not terrible when the new Daemon Codex came which allowed them to deploy normally instead of being forced to Deep Strike.

Add to this that Daemons generally got cheaper across the board, and you have more models available to deal with these problems. It's also a big help that the only answer GK have to Daemon FMCs - a Codex strength that most players are taking full advantage of - is the comparatively expensive Stormraven.

I've said it before, I'll say it again:

GK can only give Daemons a hard time if they tailor a list specifically for them, and such a list with get curb-stomped by every other army.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I've said it before, I'll say it again:

GK can only give Daemons a hard time if they tailor a list specifically for them, and such a list with get curb-stomped by every other army.

With the value of Strike Squads going up in 6th and the ability to spam Psybolts at decent costs, a bunch of S5 storm bolters is still pretty rough for Daemons to be facing down... As are any abilities that specifically pick-on Daemons, and the fact those pointy-death-sticks are now terrifying for all those multi-wound units who still tend to cost a decent amount of points.

What happened was that the new Daemon codex evened the playing field and gave Daemons some much needed boosts... The ability to defend against psychic powers, proper pts costing across the board, (especially on the once woefully useless Troops options which were pretty much the game's worst Troops), and generally beefing up the Daemons' hitting power.

Hopefully GW has learned from their mistake and will not make Grey Knights back into an instant hard-counter to almost anything a Daemon player could do...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I've said it before, I'll say it again:

GK can only give Daemons a hard time if they tailor a list specifically for them, and such a list with get curb-stomped by every other army.

With the value of Strike Squads going up in 6th and the ability to spam Psybolts at decent costs, a bunch of S5 storm bolters is still pretty rough for Daemons to be facing down... As are any abilities that specifically pick-on Daemons, and the fact those pointy-death-sticks are now terrifying for all those multi-wound units who still tend to cost a decent amount of points.

What happened was that the new Daemon codex evened the playing field and gave Daemons some much needed boosts... The ability to defend against psychic powers, proper pts costing across the board, (especially on the once woefully useless Troops options which were pretty much the game's worst Troops), and generally beefing up the Daemons' hitting power.

Hopefully GW has learned from their mistake and will not make Grey Knights back into an instant hard-counter to almost anything a Daemon player could do...

Yes GKSS are good, but every other GK unit that/weapons that give Daemons a hard time: Libbies with codex powers, psyliencers, brotherhood champions, purifiers, Interceptors, even DK are bad to borderline useless against other armies, especially Tau and Eldar.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I've said it before, I'll say it again:

GK can only give Daemons a hard time if they tailor a list specifically for them, and such a list with get curb-stomped by every other army.

With the value of Strike Squads going up in 6th and the ability to spam Psybolts at decent costs, a bunch of S5 storm bolters is still pretty rough for Daemons to be facing down... As are any abilities that specifically pick-on Daemons, and the fact those pointy-death-sticks are now terrifying for all those multi-wound units who still tend to cost a decent amount of points.

What happened was that the new Daemon codex evened the playing field and gave Daemons some much needed boosts... The ability to defend against psychic powers, proper pts costing across the board, (especially on the once woefully useless Troops options which were pretty much the game's worst Troops), and generally beefing up the Daemons' hitting power.

Hopefully GW has learned from their mistake and will not make Grey Knights back into an instant hard-counter to almost anything a Daemon player could do...

Str5 storm bolters don't screw you any more than the insane amount of shooting Tau and Eldar can put out.

I'd say GKs are just about right as far as being anti-daemons.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

jb7090 wrote:
It's not like they really need them anymore.
CSM are supposed to hate normal marines and all they get is an opportunity to buy hatred (and an extra Ld point in the bargain).

Yes, they hate normal marines, but they weren't created with the express purpose to destroy Loyalist marines, nor is that their current purpose(which is the amusement of the Dark Gods)

I know all about the fluff, but that's not my main question.

the rules that (IMO) really hurt against daemons are PE (hatred would be one thing, but re-rolling 1's to hit and wound for CC and shooting is quite another).
Psyk-out grenades (hello swinging at I1),
Psilencers(basically poisoned 4+ against daemons)
Daemonbane on all their weapons (if you take an unsaved wound you roll your leadership, if you flub that you're removed as a casualty)
Draigo and that damn S10 sword and template that's poisoned 2+ vs daemons.
Dark Excommunication (removing gifts, essentially removing a piece of wargear.)

I mean, what other army has the odds so stacked against it and for what reason?

jb7090 wrote:
I know all about the fluff, but that's not my main question.

the rules that (IMO) really hurt against daemons are PE (hatred would be one thing, but re-rolling 1's to hit and wound for CC and shooting is quite another).
Psyk-out grenades (hello swinging at I1),
Psilencers(basically poisoned 4+ against daemons)
Daemonbane on all their weapons (if you take an unsaved wound you roll your leadership, if you flub that you're removed as a casualty)
Draigo and that damn S10 sword and template that's poisoned 2+ vs daemons.

I mean, what other army has the odds so stacked against it and for what reason?

Remember that the Psyk-Out grenades only work if they charge the daemons. It has no effect if the GK are charged.

As people say, GK WERE extra awesomesauce against demons. Back when they could have fewer MCs than GK, and back when their entire army had to deepstrike, and GK had warpquake. There are still a bunch of little things in the codex that are specific anti-demon weapons (wargear and such), but people generally don't take them because they more or less ONLY hurt demons, so don't make much sense for TAC play.

And, of course, the fluff.

jb7090 wrote:
I know all about the fluff, but that's not my main question.

the rules that (IMO) really hurt against daemons are PE (hatred would be one thing, but re-rolling 1's to hit and wound for CC and shooting is quite another).
1)Psyk-out grenades (hello swinging at I1),
2)Psilencers(basically poisoned 4+ against daemons)
3)Daemonbane on all their weapons (if you take an unsaved wound you roll your leadership, if you flub that you're removed as a casualty)
4)Draigo and that damn S10 sword and template that's poisoned 2+ vs daemons.

I mean, what other army has the odds so stacked against it and for what reason?

1) Already covered, but again for emphasis. Only if the Gks charge you. And they were probably swinging first anyway because of Halberds.

2) Nobody EVER takes psilencers.

3) First off, its only the NFWs that have this rule. So close combat only. And all the daemons you care about are Ld10 anyway. Very corner case ability, no GK player is banking on it to get rid of Daemons. Better to just kill it outright using conventional means.

4) Special character of a daemon killing chapter has special daemon killing rules. Shocking!

 Grey Templar wrote:

jb7090 wrote:
I know all about the fluff, but that's not my main question.

the rules that (IMO) really hurt against daemons are PE (hatred would be one thing, but re-rolling 1's to hit and wound for CC and shooting is quite another).
1)Psyk-out grenades (hello swinging at I1),
2)Psilencers(basically poisoned 4+ against daemons)
3)Daemonbane on all their weapons (if you take an unsaved wound you roll your leadership, if you flub that you're removed as a casualty)
4)Draigo and that damn S10 sword and template that's poisoned 2+ vs daemons.

I mean, what other army has the odds so stacked against it and for what reason?

1) Already covered, but again for emphasis. Only if the Gks charge you. And they were probably swinging first anyway because of Halberds.

2) Nobody EVER takes psilencers.

3) First off, its only the NFWs that have this rule. So close combat only. And all the daemons you care about are Ld10 anyway. Very corner case ability, no GK player is banking on it to get rid of Daemons. Better to just kill it outright using conventional means.

4) Special character of a daemon killing chapter has special daemon killing rules. Shocking!

Just to put this out there, I play against GK's at my LGS and I'm about 50-50 against them, the player matters a lot as well as mission.

1) yeah I get it, it's only if the GK's charge, but it's still an ability that can be denied or fail to go off like a psychic power, or needs to hit and wound like an attack. It's 100% going to go off.

2) there's a few people in my meta that take psilencers on their dreadknights. They are pretty freakin awesome for thinning out daemon infintry, sure they are AP - but because of the daemon invlu save, ap1 or ap- is all the same.

3) Yes, Daemonbane on all their CC weapons, that's what I said. Oh and as far as I can tell it bypasses EW too. Awesome.

4) Random snarkyness blah blah blah.

Seriously, why all the Daemon hate? It just seems like overboard. Give em hatred, regular force weapons and be done with it.

To answer the original question posted in the topic:

It'd be really weird if the Emperor had looked at the founding members of the Grey Knights and told them he was creating a special chapter of Marines to fight the Daemonic menace and then didn't give them every advantage he could against them.

Honestly OP, but it sounds to me more like you are not happy that your Daemon aren't 'ROFLStomping' on GK like they do to the other armies you face, but as has been said, GK are not the one-stop Daemon Cryptonite that they once were. Also, a lot of the issues you are complaining about seem to stem from your ignorance of the release timeline; you ask why they didn't give GK Hatred (Daemons) instead of PE for instance. If you go take a look at the date on the book you will see it was released before Hatred was even a rule in 40k and PE was exactly what Hatred does now.

And just because it can't be said enough; they are Daemon Hunters!

 Super Ready wrote:
Add to this that Daemons generally got cheaper across the board, and you have more models available to deal with these problems. It's also a big help that the only answer GK have to Daemon FMCs - a Codex strength that most players are taking full advantage of - is the comparatively expensive Stormraven.

Don't mean to be rude, but over a year int 6th do people still really believe that Skyfire is the only way to deal with FMCs? I seriously would have thought that people would have learned by now. It's takes 3 units firing 6 shots on average to floor a FMC. That's not much firepower, and for GK that's a paltry amount of firepower.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Yes GKSS are good, but every other GK unit that/weapons that give Daemons a hard time: Libbies with codex powers, psyliencers, brotherhood champions, purifiers, Interceptors, even DK are bad to borderline useless against other armies, especially Tau and Eldar.

Emphasis mine to highlight what I'm referring to; you are joking right? How on earth are DKs bad to borderline useless? Last I checked they are the top unit of GK and one of the few things holding the together, as well as still being considered by comeptitive players to be one of the better units in all of 40k.

 Grey Templar wrote:


3) First off, its only the NFWs that have this rule. So close combat only. And all the daemons you care about are Ld10 anyway. Very corner case ability, no GK player is banking on it to get rid of Daemons. Better to just kill it outright using conventional means.

There are no models in the Daemon codex with Ld 10.

 Grey Templar wrote:

And all the daemons you care about are Ld10 anyway.

Every single demon in the troops, elites, fast attack and heavy support section is Ld7 or below. All the "high tier" HQs are Ld9 and the rest are Ld8. So all but 2 units in a demon army are Ld8 or below.

Try reading the demon codex before citing false information.

 Iranna wrote:
The Daemons codex is substantially better than the Grey Knights codex at the minute, which seems to be finding itself lagging behind in the current power struggle between Tau and Eldar.

I've always maintained that Daemons can give Grey Knights more than a fair fight.

Iranna.

This.

xruslanx wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

And all the daemons you care about are Ld10 anyway.

Every single demon in the troops, elites, fast attack and heavy support section is Ld7 or below. All the "high tier" HQs are Ld9 and the rest are Ld8. So all but 2 units in a demon army are Ld8 or below.

Try reading the demon codex before citing false information.

Ok, my bad. I assumed they had remained the same Ld with the codex change.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I've said it before, I'll say it again:

GK can only give Daemons a hard time if they tailor a list specifically for them, and such a list with get curb-stomped by every other army.

That's... kind of the point of GK. They're not intended to be fielded against any other kind of Army. They are, specifically, Daemon-hunters. They are not Alien-Hunters, Heretic-hunters, Traitor-Hunters or Marine-hunters. They are the defining army of the Daemon-Hunters.

As per their fluff, the entire reason they exist is to hunt down and kill daemons. If the Imperium has a problem with any type of enemy other than daemons, it has plenty of other resources to throw at that problem. When daemons show up? Send in the GK. That's what they fund them for.

They aren't intended to really be a TAC army, either in fluff or in crunch.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I've said it before, I'll say it again:

GK can only give Daemons a hard time if they tailor a list specifically for them, and such a list with get curb-stomped by every other army.

That's... kind of the point of GK. They're not intended to be fielded against any other kind of Army. They are, specifically, Daemon-hunters. They are not Alien-Hunters, Heretic-hunters, Traitor-Hunters or Marine-hunters. They are the defining army of the Daemon-Hunters.

As per their fluff, the entire reason they exist is to hunt down and kill daemons. If the Imperium has a problem with any type of enemy other than daemons, it has plenty of other resources to throw at that problem. When daemons show up? Send in the GK. That's what they fund them for.

They aren't intended to really be a TAC army, either in fluff or in crunch.

But after killing all the demons the grey knights tend to execute everyone that saw something. And everyone that could have seen something. And his neighbour. That includes everyone that helped them in killing the demons in the first place. So they dont only hunt demons.

They only hunt daemons. For the rest, there is exterminatus.

SJ

 Grey Templar wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

And all the daemons you care about are Ld10 anyway.

Every single demon in the troops, elites, fast attack and heavy support section is Ld7 or below. All the "high tier" HQs are Ld9 and the rest are Ld8. So all but 2 units in a demon army are Ld8 or below.

Try reading the demon codex before citing false information.

Ok, my bad. I assumed they had remained the same Ld with the codex change.

It's mainly because Demons have to actually cast psychic powers now. They're still fearless, so their Ld doesn't matter all that much in that respect, but for slaanesh and nurgle (Tzeentch get +3 to Ld when casting spells) it means their pysychic abilities are actually pretty unreliable.

Of course a tailored GK army is going to spank a Daemon army so hard that their grandkids will feel it. They're the Daemohunters, they were literally born to spank your warp spawned butt into oblivion. I mean, did you expect that the best daemonslayers in the Imperium wouldn't try to stack the odds against their foes as much as possible?

As an aside, if you get into assault with Draigo with a psyker or a daemon, you deserve the ass whupping you get.

 Mywik wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I've said it before, I'll say it again:

GK can only give Daemons a hard time if they tailor a list specifically for them, and such a list with get curb-stomped by every other army.

That's... kind of the point of GK. They're not intended to be fielded against any other kind of Army. They are, specifically, Daemon-hunters. They are not Alien-Hunters, Heretic-hunters, Traitor-Hunters or Marine-hunters. They are the defining army of the Daemon-Hunters.

As per their fluff, the entire reason they exist is to hunt down and kill daemons. If the Imperium has a problem with any type of enemy other than daemons, it has plenty of other resources to throw at that problem. When daemons show up? Send in the GK. That's what they fund them for.

They aren't intended to really be a TAC army, either in fluff or in crunch.

But after killing all the demons the grey knights tend to execute everyone that saw something. And everyone that could have seen something. And his neighbour. That includes everyone that helped them in killing the demons in the first place. So they dont only hunt demons.

Grey Knights don't execute everyone. Inquisitors do. There is a difference. Inquisitors have more than just Grey Knights to bring to the table.
Grey Knights are indoctrinated with an absolute belief that sooner or later anyone that isn't a Grey Knight will fall to the taint Chaos. Purifiers are similarly indoctrinated that anyone not Purifier, even other Grey Knights, will eventually fall to Chaos.But they don't go around killing heretics. That's for the Inquisition.

 Kain wrote:
Of course a tailored GK army is going to spank a Daemon army so hard that their grandkids will feel it. They're the Daemohunters, they were literally born to spank your warp spawned butt into oblivion. I mean, did you expect that the best daemonslayers in the Imperium wouldn't try to stack the odds against their foes as much as possible?

As an aside, if you get into assault with Draigo with a psyker or a daemon, you deserve the ass whupping you get.

And that's my point. Name another army that has such an advantage over another one.

jb7090 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Of course a tailored GK army is going to spank a Daemon army so hard that their grandkids will feel it. They're the Daemohunters, they were literally born to spank your warp spawned butt into oblivion. I mean, did you expect that the best daemonslayers in the Imperium wouldn't try to stack the odds against their foes as much as possible?

As an aside, if you get into assault with Draigo with a psyker or a daemon, you deserve the ass whupping you get.

And that's my point. Name another army that has such an advantage over another one.

Tailored Grey Knights vs Tyranids.

Venom Spam dark eldar vs Tyranids.

jb7090 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Of course a tailored GK army is going to spank a Daemon army so hard that their grandkids will feel it. They're the Daemohunters, they were literally born to spank your warp spawned butt into oblivion. I mean, did you expect that the best daemonslayers in the Imperium wouldn't try to stack the odds against their foes as much as possible?

As an aside, if you get into assault with Draigo with a psyker or a daemon, you deserve the ass whupping you get.

And that's my point. Name another army that has such an advantage over another one.

Because Daemons and Grey knights existed back in a time before the great Chaos Split, where upon the Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons were split apart in a great cash grab.

It wasn't minded because Grey knights were a far smaller force, being just one-two HQ's with terminator units. Then suddenly came the inclusion of Codex: Grey Knights and they became a huge force that wasn't a far smaller faction.

jb7090 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Of course a tailored GK army is going to spank a Daemon army so hard that their grandkids will feel it. They're the Daemohunters, they were literally born to spank your warp spawned butt into oblivion. I mean, did you expect that the best daemonslayers in the Imperium wouldn't try to stack the odds against their foes as much as possible?

As an aside, if you get into assault with Draigo with a psyker or a daemon, you deserve the ass whupping you get.

And that's my point. Name another army that has such an advantage over another one.

Necrons over the Eldar in the fluff supposedly (although I maybe wrong so don't quote me on it).