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Hey all,

I am struggling with converting my templars over to the new dex and maybe even the new edition? Anyway, I tend to play 1500pts and right now there is no meta where I live, in fact I am trying to generate a gaming community and will use what I currently have. So I don't have to worry about flyer, heldrakes and stuff like that.

Currently I have 27 Initiates. 21 are armed with bolt pistols and chainswords, 3 are set for Meltaguns, 3 have bolt pistol and powerfist. Originally I was going to have three squads with HQ's in each riding in Rhinos. I am not sure if I should continue along these lines or go with larger blob squads?

Can Blob squads work by foot slogging? Can I do 10xInititates with Sword brethren with power weapon, Powerfist and Meltagun with 9 Neophytes? What should the neophytes be armed with?

I hesitate going the Land Raider Crusader route, especially @ 1500pts. That seems like a lot of points wrapped up in transports or am I wrong?

I was thinking along the following list:

HQ:
Helbrecht - 180pts

Grimaldus - 185pts

Emperor's Champion - 140 pts

Troops:
3x10 Initiates w/Sword Brethren with Power Weapon, Powerfist, Meltagun and 9xNeophytes (armed with ??) - 870pts

Total: 1375

This would leave me with 125pts left over? The reason going with Helbrecht is for the army wide rules, Grimaldus for Zealot bubble and Emperor Champion for fluff sake.

I just feel like the list is missing something? It would be 60 plus bodies on the table which would look pretty impressive...

Thoughts?

Thank you for any and all help, I greatly appreciate it.

You need something AA if you can fit it. Perhaps a hunter/stalker?

Emperor's Champion takes up an HQ slot now and can be a warlord. No more triple HQs sub 2k for Templars.

Well to start you have 3 hqs with only two slots.

Big blobs depending on your meta probably wont do well as low ap is become far to common place. without proper support they probably wont do well. with rhinos at least they will move 18" before exploding giving you enough range to shoot/assault the turn after.

My personal favorite however is the land raider delivery system as my meta tends not to bring meltas.

@Thatguyoverthere11: I am not too worried about AA currently as I am going to try and build a gaming community where I live. So I will be using models/armies I currently own and I don't own any flyers other than 2 vendetta's/Valkyries.

@Obsidiankatana: DOH! You are right, the Emperor's Champion does in fact take up an HQ slot. Goes to show you how well I can read!

With that thought in mind, should I drop Grimaldus and keep Helbrecht and the Champion, or should I *GASP* drop the champion and keep Helbrecht and Grimaldus? That would then give me either 265pts if I drop the Champion or 310 pts if I drop Grimaldus...

Which to drop and what to do with left over

Grimaldus is more beneficial to a squad with general intentions (Hatred and his granted 6+ invul bubble), the Champion is better suited with a task in mind (namely punching MCs in the face with instant death).

@ Desubot: I thought about dual Land Raider Crusaders, but I don't think I can justify spending 1/3 of my points on transports? If I ever went up beyond 1500pts, than yes I would consider them, but at this point I just don't know.

@Obsidiankatana: I am leaning towards dropping the Champion...

Again what would you do with the left over points?

Should I spend 1/3 of my points and go with two blobs in LRC's? Should I drop the blob idea all together and go with 10 Initiates in Rhinos?

thoughts?

Personally I would drop both grim and the emperor's champ and pick up a chapter master with super shield( the storm shield artifact) and blinding blade if you want to go melee.

LRC's are not as good in a templar army as they used to be but still worth it in my opinion. This weekend I had my LRC carrying termies blow up on my opponent first turn this would not have happened in the last edition of the book because in my lance heavy meta it would have had a blessed hull

I also like picking up devestators now. They are great fire support while moving your guys up the fields..

If you take two blobs in LRCs, one isn't getting there. Just the hard truth of it. One probably will, but one will not.

Rhinos are a poor man's Drop Pods. They're worse at delivery, cost more, and pack the same firepower, and have less armor. Arguably useful for mech, not at all for assaults.

Maybe drop the Neophytes, grab pods, add more Crusader squads. Drop 3-4 pods T1, 2-3 T2. Suffer a round of shooting after the first lot drops, but disembark the marines behind the pods if you need the cover. Next turn Helbrecht pops his goodness and 20-30 Marines haul into the enemy while 20-30 fresh ones arrive to unload with bolters and meltas and such.

What about foot slogging? A no go? Unfortunately I do not have any drop pods...yet...

I agree with the Land Raiders, one would make it the other not...I just wish I could keep the Templars feeling like the old codex...

Foot slogging is risky though with proper terrain set up not tooo bad.

If all else fails ally in a DA tech marine with Power field and walk with him.

Footslogging when there is an option not to is just a bad idea.

I for one think a LR crusader is a good choice at 1500 pts. Your opponents will likely have few options for dealing with even one. The thing can move and do surprising amount of damage snap shooting all the twin linked weapons.

There are just not a lot of great assault options left in 40K.

How would you equip Rhino or drop pod squads?

I think I would go with one of the following:

10xInitiates, Powerfist (For big things), Meltagun, Sword Brethren with Powerweapon

Or drop the fist and go with a poweraxe to save some points.

Or switch the powerfist to poweraxe, and give the brethren a lightning claw.

I still find templars annoying in the sense of making a list work while keeping in spirit of the fluff...

Thoughts?

For assault squads, I favor sword on champion and hidden axe.

For shooty squads, I'm torn. Combi weapon is twice as expensive as in a Tac squad but you can go special & heavy with < 10 marines.

@minigun762: I agree with you. I am leaning more and more with your assessment about the assault oriented squad being brethren with sword and axe hidden in the squad.

I am still torn as for the delivery system and how many squads to include.

As well as a fluffy support system for said squads?

I am beginning to think about the following list:

HQ
Helbrecht - 180pts
Grimaldus - 185pts

Troops:
2x9 Initiates, w/Poweraxe, Meltagun, Sword Brethren w/Powersword in Drop Pod - 422pts

3x10 Initiates w/Poweraxe, Meltagun, Sowrd Brethren w/Powersword in Drop Pod - 675pts

Total: 1462

So I have an odd number of pods, which works in my favor. If I maneuver them properly I can have the zealous bubble of Grimaldus and of coarse the effects from Helbrecht. Plus it gives me 5 scoring units and a total of 50 marines on the field.

Another thought maybe to switch them to Rhino's but I am not sure on that yet.

Thoughts? Black Rain or Black Rhino tide?

Thanks

Hi All
Why do you insist on taking both Helbrecht and Grimaldus? That's a lot of points. Personally I go with Grim in a black rain list. With command squad and retinue for extra pew pew and holy relic.

After some thought and the recent Black Templar write up done here on the forum I am considering the following list:

Black Templar Black Tide:

HQ:
Grimaldus - 185pts

Troops:
4x10 Initiates, 9 Neophytes (fluff reasons), Meltagun, Poweraxe, sword brethren with powersword - 840pts

Heavy Support:
3xWhirlwinds (40k versions of trebuchets at least in my mind) - 195pts

Total: 1500pts on the nose!

This is what I am thinking about using now. I think I have done my points right...I may drop a crusader squad and give Grimaldus a Command Squad, but I think I am happy with the list as is.
40 Initiates
36 Neophytes
3 Tanks
and a Chaplain in a pear tree!

Whirlwinds don't offer much to the list as you're swimming in anti infantry firepower and as you assault the enemy, you deny yourself targets.

What about the new AA tanks instead?

 Chaplain Pallantide wrote:
After some thought and the recent Black Templar write up done here on the forum I am considering the following list:

Black Templar Black Tide:

HQ:
Grimaldus - 185pts

Troops:
4x10 Initiates, 9 Neophytes (fluff reasons), Meltagun, Poweraxe, sword brethren with powersword - 840pts

Heavy Support:
3xWhirlwinds (40k versions of trebuchets at least in my mind) - 195pts

Total: 1500pts on the nose!

This is what I am thinking about using now. I think I have done my points right...I may drop a crusader squad and give Grimaldus a Command Squad, but I think I am happy with the list as is.
40 Initiates
36 Neophytes
3 Tanks
and a Chaplain in a pear tree!

One thing to consider: Characters in challenges have Rending. Lightning Claws have Shred. If you take two, you can have four attacks on the charge, all rending and AP3.

Our you can not worry about assault as assault is not that good and just make a shooty army. last game i took 5 20 man cursader squad all guns and 3 thunderfire cannons makes one hell of a gun line

It does, but that negates the whole point of taking Black Templar CTs; close combat. Why take a crusader squad when you can take Imperial Fists and have better bonuses to shooting?

Why not take the following

Helbrecht and grimaldus & cenobyte servitors
9 initiates, 6 neophytes, land raider crusader w/mm
9 initiates, 3 neophytes, land raider crusader w/mm
And
2 stormtalons w skyhammer or
2 thunderfire or
1 hunter/stalker and 1 thunderfire or
3 centurion devastators w/ grav cannon and grav amp or
Stormraven

Put the objectives in the opponents half of the table and charge forward and issue challenges and capture objectives

Also, since you don't have a meta you could play more than 1500 pts, like maybe 1850?

I might make my meta 2000pts, but I am not quite there yet...I really need to try and get the game off the ground.

I would like to mech them, but I cannot seem to justify 2 land raiders in 1500pts. Maybe in 2000pts, but not 1500....

I also agree with McNinja, taking bolter armed Black Templar negates what they should be all about with is a close combat army.

I still think that the LRC is the best option. Expensive, yes. But tough, gives you some support fire and damn if it's not fluffy!

10 Initiates, 5 Neophytes and a Grimaldus
Sword Brethern with a Sword, a hidden Axe and as many CCW's as you can get. All in a LR Crusader.

Besides those, maybe a cheap AT/Drop Pod squad to steal the First Blood? And another Drop Pod to bolter down squishy objective-holders. Speaking of which, a 5-man squad with Lascannon and/or an AT-Predator can prove useful (I didn't see any true objective holders in this thread).

Just tossing some ideas around, with little experience about the BT. Hope I helped

Yes i know black templers are a assault army. but in a ed where assault is really did shooting and gun lines are the way to go its just to hard to get to assault

What about a flamer, combi flamer, LC squad with BP&CCW in a pod?
First turn burn them out, next turn assault the remnants.

The BT you know and love is dead and gone. Youve got to run Ultra Templars to get anywhere. I went back to Orks because the games Ive had have sucked so hard.

Best chance youll have at that point value to keep it remotely fluffy would take an EC and Crusader squad in an LRC, Axe, Melta, and SB with LCx2 or PSword. Footslogging is embarrasing without Zeal to get you across the table. Use a Pod squad with Meltas or Grav to pop tanks and grab objectives. Typhoons are still a must have, and dual Preds or Vindis are always solid. As you climb in points a Quad gun with a Flakk Crusader squad is great AA.

As far as the HQ breakdown, Grim is so so for footslogging. Its idiotic, but the wording on his servitors makes them a seperate unit rather than wargear now. They will not count for meatshields anymore, and 6+ isnt all that hot vs shooty armies who see the Tide as an easy target. Grim himself should last the whole game if noone IDs him however. Hes a force multiplier and thats about it.

Helbrecht should be used with CC heavy lists, which is obviously pointless without RZ and LRC tax to do anything with them. His use of a coordinated Furious Charge, Fleet, and Hatred should be brutal in theory with perhaps two Black Tides, but they will never get there. GW is fething slowed and neglected to give the Marshall of a fleet based chapter an Orbital Bombardment, so backfield is no good either. Two LRCs loaded with CC Crusaders, Helbrecht in one and a Fist Chappy in the other should maximize his one turn buff. Thats a lot off eggs in baskets however and tuned for CC so isnt great for all comers.

EC is a good small point or back up HQ. Id Pod him with a shooty squad to punch MCs and keep those squads on objectives with Fearless. Hes a murder machine in a challenge but if your opponent is feeding him meatshields then his power is wasted.

A kitted out Marshall is the best option youve got, and having an Orbital makes him stand out from the rest. Best taken with an Honor Guard in an LRC at 1850+. Deploy him on the ground, bring a shooty Crusader squad in an LRC, disembark them, fire the Orbital, and get your Honor Guard into the LRC. It should kill whatever it gets near.

Chaplain is also a small points choice or a throwaway side HQ. Force multiplier, dont challenge with him. Keep him alive for the buffs.

Thats about all you can do for Templars without going Black Smurf, and if you buy into Codex Astartes territory youre playing the wrong army. Played right theyre pretty crappy and were better off with a digital update ala SoB. But GW wants them gone so what are you gonna do?