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Just like the title says, I'll be going up against a CSM/BL list with at least 3 (possibly 4) Heldrakes. I'm running BA w/ SM allies, so my AA is fairly limited. The Stormraven is AC + MM.

Will a Hunter and a 'Raven be enough? I'm conteplating on a Stormralon instead of the Hunter, but I'm not sure.

Any help would be great!

Lucarikx

That's pretty horrific to hear.

If you have more available, I strongly recommend you take it. That is a *lot* of Heldrakes to deal with and they will obliterate anything that isn't a vehicle in short order.
I would really look at taking some Stormtalons or more Hunters if available. Don't go for the traditional AA solutions of massed S7 though, I would go for hard kills here. The Hunter is preferable to the Stalker, take Lascannons on your aircraft and look into some kind of Fortification with an Icarus.

If you want to go a bit further into list-tailoring, consider a Skyshield if one is available. That 4++ will go a long way. Also you could go for maximum overtroll and run Dante and Sanguinary Guard, plus Terminators to support. Basically expect anything that doesn't have a 2+ save or AV13 on the sides to die immediately, and then work on shooting them down as a counter attack.

 Lucarikx wrote:
Just like the title says, I'll be going up against a CSM/BL list with at least 3 (possibly 4) Heldrakes. I'm running BA w/ SM allies, so my AA is fairly limited. The Stormraven is AC + MM.

Will a Hunter and a 'Raven be enough? I'm conteplating on a Stormralon instead of the Hunter, but I'm not sure.

Any help would be great!

Lucarikx

3 heldrakes is pretty easy to beat. 4 is even easier. You want lots of Terminators, the new Centurians and anything else you can find with 2+ saves(techmarines, Honor Guard, and Sang guard?)

A TFC might be a good idea. Just make sure it is at the back of your deployment zone with the Techmarine in front(so if he wants to VS it he has to take himself off the table.) Killing his cultists at range with ignore cover rounds will be priceless, it is difficult to flame(2+ save) and to VS he has to take himself off the table.

Landraiders are immune to heldrakes, I think the redeemer full of assault marines would be my bet. Your terminators can DS or walk.

With 4 heldrakes, he is going to have to burn a lot of points in the drakes(680) and HQs(200ish) so he is going to have a very weak middle. Prepare to kill all his units on the ground and you win.


I would not run the Raven. Even with its AV12 and nice skyfire guns, if it comes in first he will mass VS it. 4 drakes will do 8-16 str7 hits to it and kill it before it gets to fire. 200 points(+ whatever was in it)

Thanks guys. I also know my opponent is running a Juggerlord with some Spawn too, so his ground forces are minimal.

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:
Thanks guys. I also know my opponent is running a Juggerlord with some Spawn too, so his ground forces are minimal.

Lucarikx

so a jugger lord with spawn is his AP2. That is what he plans to kill termators with. The way to tie up that is Str10 and lots of champions. Charge in with anything fast that has a champion to feed the jugger lord. Then you want a dreadnaught or something else with str10 to kill the spawn quickly. The jugger lord will probably kill your dread(especilly if he brought meltabombs and then you shoot him with bolters)

The TFC can also kill spawn, they are only T5, but you need to load a ton of wounds on them. If you think your vindicator can survive, ranged str10 is very nice. Perhaps a MOTF on a bike with converison beamer.

BA are the master of st10. Just take sang guard and termis as said above and take fists that cant be challenged out. In range of a priest and there is your mass st10!

BA power fists are never STR 10. (2*4)+1 = 9, not 10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The other way you could go would be a comms relay and triple or quadruple Stormraven. I have not been a fan of Stormravens in the past, but I'm a bigger fan of Stormravens than I am of terminators at this point. This solution is also more TAC, imo. I think list tailoring is something to be avoided.

The Heldrake is INSANELY durable and with 4 of them, no amount of AA is gonna bring those bastards down before they kill everything you have that is rocking a 3+ save or worse (whether in a transport or not). As a few have already voiced, 2+ saves are your best bet overall. However there are two problems with this:
1. You would be list-tailoring pretty hard, which somewhat takes away from the victory.
2. The only 2+ troop choice that comes to mind are the Sanguinary Guard. Although they'll work here, they're a pretty poor choice for a TAC list.
In terms of actually trying to kill them, the most point-efficient unit in terms of downing Heldrakes is in fact the Stormraven, paying 400 pts for every Destroyed! result they dish out to a Heldrake. Furthermore, it is much more resilient when it comes to taking those str 7 Vector Strikes than the squishy Stormtalon. One could argue that the Stormtalon is gonna fly past the Heldrake anyway (for those rear shots), but it will be relevant if more Heldrakes arrive (a likely possibility with 4 of the freakin' things.)

Triple/quadruple stormravens with comms relay will shut them down.

Don't forget the Stormravens can kill stuff on the ground as they're done with the Helldrakes. And the CSM will have few answers.

How is he running spawn plus 4 heldrakes...double force org chart?

Heldrakes are fast as well as spawn being fast.

His list should have no spawn, no bikes, no raptors. A juggerlord will be all by himself with 4 drakes.

See black legion supplement.. google I mean

 Rismonite wrote:
See black legion supplement.. google I mean

yes but then no spawn. you only get 3+1 FA slots. not 4. Unless you are running over 2000 points.

 Exergy wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
See black legion supplement.. google I mean

yes but then no spawn. you only get 3+1 FA slots. not 4. Unless you are running over 2000 points.

Oh woops.. ignorant noob sorry..

Sad truth is if you are running space marines, helldrakes end you. Termies, centurions... anything else that is armor 2 doesnt help. Anything space marines can make troops get instant killed by drakes (no saves). With T5 bikes... he has to wound on threes but will burn his reroll ability.

Quad gun is useless unless you take centurions with imperial fist tactics. 4 str7, tank hunter shots should be able to intercept one.

But he will still have 2-3 come on and destroy units.

Consider transports for any troops you use, now he has to at least try to destroy these prior to killing troops.

2 stormravens, 2 storm talons is a good idea. Remember a storm raven has Power of machine. twin link melta at one, and twin linked lascannon + 2 str 8 missiles at another.

If he kills troops wit helldrakes, now you are playing catch up to kill his to hope for a tie.

1) protect troops in transports
2) 2 storm ravens at the very least
3 3 centurions, imperial fist chapter tactics + Aegis quad gun. Shoot quad on interceptor and no matter how tempting, fire the 3 twin linked lascannons at a flyer on your turn.


Good Luck

EDIT: also consider a bastion, nothing in his list seems like he can destroy your bastion fairly easy. Marines in side, imperial fist centurions with Quad on top?

Thanks again for the input guys. I wasn't thinking when I said 4 'drakes and spawn - its only gonna be 3. In either case, the I only have access to (model wise) to the Stormraven (maybe 2) and a Hunter. Would this still be adequate? Also, I feel if I do go triple raven I dont have enough points for some solid troops/other hard hitting units.

If anyone cares, heres the list I'm trying to modify to deal with the 3 drake/Juggerlord build. It did net me 5th place out of 16 in a tourny with some really good Tau, Daemons, Eldar and IG lists.

Mephiston

Librarian (Shackle Soul, Shield of Sanguinious)

X8 Sternguard (DP, X5 Combi-Meltas)

Corbulo + Regular Priest

Furioso Dreadnought (Frag Cannon, Heavy Flamer, DP)

Tactical Squad (10 man, PG, LC)

Tactical Squad (10 man, PG, LC)

Tactical Squad (10 man, PG, LC)

Stormraven (AC, MM)

Vindicator

I was gonna drop Vindicator and the Librarian and move one of the Tac Squads over to Iron Hands to get a Hunter and the unkillable Chapter Master.

Thanks,

Lucarikx

what is your ally troop choice?

Anyway, 3 troops choices that are tactical squads out in the open... you are doomed against 3 helldrakes mate.

2 storm ravens is your best best. Proxy the hunter as a rhino and get some troops in behind the hull.

You really need a third Stormraven for 4 drakes.

Martel732 wrote:
You really need a third Stormraven for 4 drakes.

I really dont think stormravening up is the right idea. 3 stormravens will kill 4 drakes...eventually.

But they cannot intercept them, so the drakes can come on, possibly killing a stormraven with VS on the way, and then flame your infantry. Then your stormravens go to work, but it is unlikely you are going to kill all the drakes in the next turn without perfect rolling. Then the drakes have their next turn and kill more of your infantry. Then your stormravens go to work agian, probably kill another drake or two. Then the drake(s) get one more turn to kill your infantry. Finally you finish them off, but you have no more infantry. The CSM player now rollstomps your remaining ground units while you take pot shots at his ground units with a multimelta. If you cannot get a shot lined up you have to hover, and then you get charged.

I would rather try to kill his ground targets while making my ground targets resileint to drakes. Taking 615 points of storm ravens to kill 680 points of drakes might sound like sense until you realize that those drakes are going to do their job in 2 turns and then the CSM player doesnt care if they die. Turn 6 your storm raven isnt going to do much. Sure preventing the CSM player from having his drakes turn 6 is a nice bonus, but 600 points could be 2 squads of terminators and 1 squad of centurians. Those would be really nice to have turn 6 as well.

I don't know. I just mushed a CSM list with triple helldrake with a list with dual stormraven and stormtalon. I had all the drakes dead by my shooting phase turn 3. I reserved two BA razors with ASM that were fast. Worked out well because at the end, he had fewer scoring units than I because Mephiston mulched all his plague marines.

 Exergy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You really need a third Stormraven for 4 drakes.

I really dont think stormravening up is the right idea. 3 stormravens will kill 4 drakes...eventually.

But they cannot intercept them, so the drakes can come on, possibly killing a stormraven with VS on the way, and then flame your infantry. Then your stormravens go to work, but it is unlikely you are going to kill all the drakes in the next turn without perfect rolling. Then the drakes have their next turn and kill more of your infantry. Then your stormravens go to work agian, probably kill another drake or two. Then the drake(s) get one more turn to kill your infantry. Finally you finish them off, but you have no more infantry. The CSM player now rollstomps your remaining ground units while you take pot shots at his ground units with a multimelta. If you cannot get a shot lined up you have to hover, and then you get charged.

I would rather try to kill his ground targets while making my ground targets resileint to drakes. Taking 615 points of storm ravens to kill 680 points of drakes might sound like sense until you realize that those drakes are going to do their job in 2 turns and then the CSM player doesnt care if they die. Turn 6 your storm raven isnt going to do much. Sure preventing the CSM player from having his drakes turn 6 is a nice bonus, but 600 points could be 2 squads of terminators and 1 squad of centurians. Those would be really nice to have turn 6 as well.

I like this .. if TFG Chaos player is gonna throw in 4 Helldrakes he deserves to get countered with a list that offers no targets to a 3rd of his points that can't score.

Edit.. Land Raiders.. Deep strike termies.. and then something to specifically fall in behind his AP2 hunter and smash it.

People are greatly overestimating 4 Heldrakes. Each drake only has 2-3 effective turns per game. A very large chunk of his army will not be doing something every turn. You can easily load up on 2+ saves and don't even worry about wasting points on AA.

So which troops have a 2+ save?

You should get 1 unit of AA for each Heldrake so 3-4 AA units
Also what kind of WAAC butthole takes 4 frigging heldrakes? The cheapness and cheesness are of the the charts!

Heldrake's have 2 major weaknesses.

1) Only their Vector Strikes can engage other flyers unless they go with the Hades Autocannon, at which point you aren't nearly as afraid of them as with the Baleflamer.

2) Their Vector Strike is the only way they have of taking vehicles out.


Stormtalons will rip them to Shreds as long as you avoid their vector strikes. You can actually fly over them and shoot the assault cannon backwards(360 degree arc) into their rear armor. So you can engage them 360, but they can only vector strike you. Which means they need to make multiple turns.

Provided you have smart placement with your flyers you can easily avoid their Vector Strikes. You can premeasure where they can and cannot get to, park your flyers in those areas.

And since you are playing at the double FoC level, you will have access to 2 Fortifications. dual ADL, dual Bastions, dual FoR(epic lolage)

Thanks again guys!

@Overlord Thraka: There is actually a Contemptor Dread on the line, lol. Our area does a Good vs. Evil thing for 2 people every once in a while - I just got lucky and got selected!

@Grey Templar: We are only playing at 1850, sadly.

What if I used a Wall of Martyrs? Park some Tac Marines inside and call it a day.

Lucarikx

If its 1850, how are there 4 Heldrakes? The most you could have without double FoC is 3.

Black Legion allies. Its silly that CSM and Black Legion can ally so that you can get 8 Heldrakes at 2k, but that's how Gee Dubs likes it, I guess.

Lucarikx

 Grey Templar wrote:
If its 1850, how are there 4 Heldrakes? The most you could have without double FoC is 3.

black legion supplement.

It allows EW DP and a 4th FA slot(or any slot, but FA is the only good CSM slot)

Other than that, it is a horrible book devoid of fluff, good rule, or new pictures.

I haven't seen my heldrakes winning many games for me, so I don't see what all the fuss is about. SM have so much access to Flakk rockets, and their StormTalons usually blow me out of the sky from miles away. (yea i said SM considering most of the community plays them).

I will run max 3 drakes in my games, and their performance is a major hit or miss in my meta.

My advice is 2+ and some flyers geared to killing other flyers. Unless I have plasma spam or a load of shots to fire a turn (so never) Terminators are a nightmare to deal with. According to you hes running no Oblits, Havocs, or Forge fiends. All of those can kill terminators.

For his Jugger lord just get a squad of TH/SS termies. Those guys are my cloud on a sunny day.

Your flyers will be able to handle the drakes no problem, and they only have a few turns of effectiveness. Well to solve that position your army and abuse coherency. It won't save everyone but it will lower the numbers you pick up after he flames. Reserves would also help this if you can place objectives effectively.

Edit: I also think Heldrakes are overrated for what they can do. Anything with anti flyer and good positioning can stop a heldrake slaughter.