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Okay so this is my first thread on Dakka, but I'm hoping it'll give me some kind of answer to the question that's been bugging myself and a few others for a while now. How on Terra are Valkyries/Vultures VTOL with the engines designed the way they are? Please help me understand. This may be a stupid thread but this question hurts my brain.

Cheers folks!

Yes, it's stupid, just like every other 40k aircraft would crash within seconds of attempting to fly. You just have to accept that, like most fictional aircraft, they're designed based on what looks cool, not what works.

Powered by pure grimdark.

Same with all the SM flyers.

Every Imperium vehicle with a few exceptions looks stupid. Doesn't make the Vendetta/Valk special.

Colonel Diablo wrote:How on Terra are Valkyries/Vultures VTOL with the engines designed the way they are?

#1 Notice the huge thrusters on the wings
#2 add moderate amount of suspension of disbelief to cancel out remaining doubt regarding lift power and vectors
#3 ???
#4 PROFIT

Spessss meeahgiccccssss

Most if not all "VTOL" aircraft in the 40k universe I've seen have little to no aerodynamic thought put into them.

Sometimes they write it off that the thrusters or engines are so absurdly powerful that even the brick like aircraft could "fly" even with the tiny little nozzles on the ends of the wings (Futur Technowogy!).
heck the models wings are practically rectangular and square in shape which has of course little to no lift properties. but that's a whole different thing altogether

hell the only hardly flightworthy aircraft out of those I've seen..... is the Ork aircraft..... which again has the whole "engine is stupidly powerful" excuse, but it has properly shaped wings (kinda). And the only Imperial craft I can think of off the the top of my head that could (maybe) fly would be the StormTalon (yes the wee little flying brick). Its engines if insanely powerful enough coupled with engines that could rotate it might be able to hover and fly but..... not likely....

As for the Valk and its varients, piddly little nozzles on the wingtips is the only VTOL part of the design. heck my Valk Helicopter makes more sense then the model design....

The stormtalon does have those huge engines for the size of its fusilage. End to end, theyre as big as the whole model itself.

Maybe the vehicles have some sort of antigrav components too. But then again a lot of scifi just throws conventional thinking outside without a plausible explanation. (if i say it can fly, it can fly).

It's also possible that there's some Star Wars style "repulsorlift" stuff going on. Eldar, Tau, 'Crons, Dark Eldar all have REALLY good anti-gravity tech, and Space Marines now have gravity GUNS. I'm sure the imperium has some manner of anti-grav tech that allows a box to move 50 feet off the ground before the main thrusters kick in.

Possible. Whilst there is fluff about lost knowledge and repulsor tanks not being produced anymore (almost making the Land Speeder a relic of another time!), there is also fluff about stuff like "Suspensors" that help reduce the weight of heavy weapons (Inquisitor RPG), or about "gravitic energy dampers" built into Space Marine PA to reduce their weight to that of a normal man (2E C:AoD). In short, whilst the Imperium seems to have trouble producing machinery that makes stuff float on their own, it still seems capable of making things weigh less.

Tau tanks can fly, why therefore do you pick on valks

I think the only vehicle with any realistic design applied to it in all of 40K is the frontal coverage of the hammerhead/devilfish. A real life tank would actually ignore any incoming fire from 40K tech other than lascannons or meltas in melta range simply by design. They would also reliably kill most 40K tech simply by being so much better a shot that they can put shells through crew viewports ('cos they're huge) despite any "super space tech" armour bullshittery that could make up for the atrocious designs.

Thanks for the input folks!

@Engine of War: Yeah, I completely agree! I myself was considering a possible Valk to helo conversion, but we'll see!

@Nobody_Holme: I guess I just picked on Valks and Vends because I'm most interested in them. Hahaha. I would prefer that since IG are human that they'd use a sort of "space tech" upgrade version of pre-existing tech, and that all the bullshittery was saved for xenos. But ho-hum.

It probably be argued that only the Elder have the aerodynamics
built into ttheir models to allow those models to fly. But eh, suspension of disbelief is a powerful thing.

Science Fiction!

They (and other IOM flyers) probably use their wing-tip thrust nozzles to lift up into ground effect, then the main engines kick in and forward velocity provides the rest of the lift required. Since ground effect occurs within one wingspan of the ground (flying base is about that height), they can operate at their "tactical" 3x speed of a tank. Once out of ground effect, the huge-overpowered engines accelerate the ungainly aircraft to much higher speeds which increases the lift and compensates for being out of ground effect. The helicopter valk is actually a bad idea, because the fastest helicopter in the world can only go 250 knots (and it has a pusher propeller). You can't go much faster because your retreating blade will stall and your advancing blade will break the sound barrier. Also, you'd be more affected by air density changes on different planets than with a rocket or jet.

The orks can fly because the dakkajet is based on the Mig-17, aka an actual aircraft. And because they are orks.

I have trouble picturing rectangular cross-section wings ever generating any amount of lift whatsoever, my guess is that the drag generated would be forever in excess of thrust.

Maybe all Imperial aircraft have energy field generators in the leading edges that create an appropriate lifting surface for any type of atmosphere (it would explain all those weird round things that tend to show up on their wings...)

I've always thought that Valkyries were more like Harriers than helicopters. They can hover, but it uses up fuel rapidly and makes them hugely vulnerable, so its only meant for takeoff and landing.

Or maybe the fact that the models don't have aerofoils is because they're childrens toys instead of accurate scale models?

Just assume the actual Valk in-game has properly shaped wings.

The real problem with the Valkyrie design (with all Forge World Imperial Aircraft really) is that they have skids when they should have wheels.

VTOL is a stupid idea. Even with magic space fuel, taking off vertically cuts your effective range by a significant amount. If a Valkyrie in its current configuration has an effective range of 200km, then a Valkyrie with wheels, operating in V/STOVL mode will have a range of more like 250km.

In a universe of space elves, demons, and warmongering fungus, you choose to question the abilities of aircraft to take off and land vertically?

 Lynata wrote:
Possible. Whilst there is fluff about lost knowledge and repulsor tanks not being produced anymore (almost making the Land Speeder a relic of another time!), there is also fluff about stuff like "Suspensors" that help reduce the weight of heavy weapons (Inquisitor RPG), or about "gravitic energy dampers" built into Space Marine PA to reduce their weight to that of a normal man (2E C:AoD). In short, whilst the Imperium seems to have trouble producing machinery that makes stuff float on their own, it still seems capable of making things weigh less.

Back in Rogue Trader (1st ed), suspensors were an add-on choice to allow you to negate the heavy weapon movement penalty (or something). Add enough of them, the weapon is weightless, and didn't slow down the model at all.

Use enough of them to make the VTOL craft weightless, and you just need to push it along.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

VTOL is a stupid idea. Even with magic space fuel, taking off vertically cuts your effective range by a significant amount. If a Valkyrie in its current configuration has an effective range of 200km, then a Valkyrie with wheels, operating in V/STOVL mode will have a range of more like 250km.

VTOL isn't just a good idea, its the Law!


But seriously, on planets where the Imperium is arriving for the first time, VTOL is essential for military, never mind that is a 'Verse of orbital bombardments and sneaky orks, aircraft that don't need a vulnerable airbase to operate from are prized

(My headcanon is that ork aircraft take off using ZELL)


(Incidently, all imperial shuttles are SSTO and VTOL)

No, VTOL is not essential. In the earliest stages, carrier-launched is fine, and the first thing that any serious invasion needs is a planetside base of operations from which to deploy ground troops, since aircraft can't hold ground.

Read Raid on Kastorel Novem.

VTOL is a stupid idea. Even with magic space fuel, taking off vertically cuts your effective range by a significant amount. If a Valkyrie in its current configuration has an effective range of 200km, then a Valkyrie with wheels, operating in V/STOVL mode will have a range of more like 250km.

Unless the VTOL capability is provided by anti-grav tech that runs on space magic and grimdark. In 40K, fuel is only important if it matters to the plot, which is rarely.

The concept of VTOL in general is very, very useful, though, for infantry insertion/extraction. It's why we use helicopters in the modern military, after all. There's only so many places you can perform a landing maneuver with a plane or plane-like vehicle... the ability to drop straight down, or rise straight up, not to mention hover in place, *vastly* increases your operational mobility.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, VTOL is not essential. In the earliest stages, carrier-launched is fine, and the first thing that any serious invasion needs is a planetside base of operations from which to deploy ground troops, since aircraft can't hold ground.

Read Raid on Kastorel Novem.

Would this be the carrier that lands on the planet using VTOL?

Incidentaly according to 'Double Eagle' by Dan Abnett, Lightnings, Thunderbolts and even Marauders have VTOL capability

I think the F-14 tomcat has effectively shown how just about anything is capable of flight with big enough engines

Ekranoplan

It only really needs all 8 jet engines to get going...

Or its because Imperial flyiers are so ugly the planet repels them...

 Senden wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, VTOL is not essential. In the earliest stages, carrier-launched is fine, and the first thing that any serious invasion needs is a planetside base of operations from which to deploy ground troops, since aircraft can't hold ground.

Read Raid on Kastorel Novem.

Would this be the carrier that lands on the planet using VTOL?

Incidentaly according to 'Double Eagle' by Dan Abnett, Lightnings, Thunderbolts and even Marauders have VTOL capability

No, that would be the carrier that launches its fighters from low orbit to clear the way for the dropships carrying troops and engineers to set up an airbase.

I'm aware that all major Imperial aircraft are VTOL capable. However, that doesn't change the fact that the ability to use Short Take-Off protocols would make them all significantly better from a strategic point of view.

There's probably a number of novel authors who all have their own ideas regarding such details.

But yes, in GW's original material, carriers indeed remain in low orbit, and Valkyries have limited spaceflight ability. In BFG, only transports and ships smaller than cruiser-size can descend from low orbit, anything else is simply too large and gets issues with the pull of gravity.

As regards Lightnings, etc, though, we have an official source in the Forge World models, which are all equipped with skids, meaning they must be VTOL.

Edit: Although I guess they could be catapult-launched like the V2, although that seems even less intuitive...