Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game, Prodos loses license to AvP. p.266

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**Visceral_Mass**

I really wanted to back this project on kickstarter, but at those prices I am going to wait and see what discounts I can get through the normal retail channels when the game is officially released. I want to feel like I am getting a "deal" if I help fund the game instead of feeling like i'm just preordering it.

**Visceral_Mass**

"If successful this KS project will allows Prodos Games Ltd to produce the AvP The Hunt Begins Board Game (which will be produced in standard plastic 1 piece format for late 2014 release) in a bespoked and limited (to KS) fashion specifically for the model connoisseur and collector alike. "

As someone who is only interested in the game and not how detailed and posable the models are (I hate modeling), I am glad to see that the game will have one piece figures available this time next year for a wider release. That allows me plenty of time to save up for multiple copies.

**Visceral_Mass**

The Aliens and Predator licenses have a HUGE following, the problem with this kickstarter is that it is catering to a small niche of that following that are also gaming hobbyists.

I think this KS would have been huge if the base game was more accessible to the non-hobbyist following with some special rewards thrown in for hobbyists.

As it is now many of us are waiting for more info about the retail version of the game.

**Visceral_Mass**

BrookM wrote:
The retail version will have single piece plastics, which makes the retail edition more geared towards the casual players while this version right now is geared towards us table-toppers.

Which means less people will pledge. Wouldn't it have made more sense to cater to the larger portion of the fanbase now and use those funds for the hobbyist products later or have them as add-ons?

**Visceral_Mass**

Manchu wrote:
I think probably not. The niche market customer is willing to spend more up front than the generalized customer, whose purchase will depend much more on retail-driven low price and of course impulse buying/immediate gratification.

I think you are underestimating the potential of the Aliens/Predator fans who are not hobbyists. I for one would have pledged for at least 2 boxed sets had they not been geared towards the hobbyists and I would have added at least 2 of ANY other items that were ready to play right out of the box. The customer that drives the sales of the action figures and statues and comics is where the true money is, not in the hobbyists.

**Visceral_Mass**

Manchu wrote:
Visceral_Mass wrote:
The customer that drives the sales of the action figures and statues and comics is where the true money is, not in the hobbyists.
We're not disagreeing on that point. But KS is not where you get to that market -- you get to those guys in discount retail.

I disagree with that as KS is for funding, not a sales method designed to reach a specific market, such as hobbyists. Granted it can be used that way, but it seems like you'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you could have reached a larger group of people willing to help fund your project if you just broadened your project's appeal, especially when you were already planning on doing it any way.

**Visceral_Mass**

Manchu wrote:
Hobbyists have shown tremendous responsiveness to KS. What Prodos is doing makes perfect sense.

Fans of specific licenses and gamers of all types have shown tremendous responsiveness to KS, it depends on the project's appeal. What would have made perfect sense (if funding the game is truly their goal) is having a project that appeals to as many people as possible instead of catering to a specific group.

**Visceral_Mass**

Manchu wrote:
Visceral_Mass wrote:
Manchu wrote:
if funding the game is truly their goal
Oh, right there's your mistake. This isn't about funding anything really, as far as I can tell. This is about getting resin multi-piece models to hobbyists on the way to retail.

Not a mistake, my whole point is they could have made crazy amounts of money if they kickstarted the retail game as it would have allowed them to bypass the middleman (the distributors). Plus the extra money might have allowed them to offer those hobbyist figures for a little cheaper.

**Visceral_Mass**

Ruglud wrote:
More interesting comments from Prodos - slowly but surely the info on the game is leaking through

Creator Prodos Games Ltd 2 minutes ago

@ Aeria_Gloris: The Boardgame doesn't use conventional squares. It uses measuring like a wargame, in inches.
We are currently making a gameplay video which (if there are no issues) will be uploaded over the next two days.

Really hope this weekend sees an upturn in backers and the pledge level - would be great to get through the £85k level on to the Crusher...

I think not making the box game a "board game" is a very bad move, they may lose some pledges and future customers over that. I was going to get the retail boxed game because I thought it was a Space Hulk style board game, now I'm probably going to wait for some retail boxed figures to just use with my Space Hulk sets.

The more I learn about this game the more disappointed I get. :(

**Visceral_Mass**

Does anyone know the scope of Prodos's AVP license? Does it only encompass a "war game" or "miniatures game"? Maybe that is why they are not doing an actual board game variant and are just using the tiles as interior terrain. I know upper deck is doing a deck building card game for the Aliens license and plans on doing one for the Predator license, so other companies are making games for the licenses. Would it be possible for someone else to create an Aliens and/or Predator self contained board game?

**Visceral_Mass**

I agree with CptJake.

If this license was handled by someone who understood its diverse fanbase, as well as the gaming market as a whole, and not just one small aspect of that market, this KS would have easily joined the ranks of other million dollar plus games.

As it is now, I feel like the KS is run by a bunch of gamers who only understand the market for the games they play.

On a side note, am I the only one who doesn't like a large portion of the actual miniatures shown? I agree the detail on them is awesome, but some of them seem to have a "chiseled" look where things should be more rounded and some of the poses look awkward to me.

**Visceral_Mass**

Expecting the sculpts to be accurate goes with the territory for what they are charging and the market they are catering to.

The larger market probably wouldn't be as critical if they were getting a fun game, at a reasonable price, with ready to play components.

**Visceral_Mass**

This kickstarter feels very rushed. They should have taken the extra time to prepare a better product presentation from the beginning.

The game seems to be incomplete to the point that they don't know what units they are going to include and have instead started adding things on a "wouldn't this be cool" basis.

Plus, the "boardgame" doesn't sound like a boardgame, it sounds like a set of conversion rules to appease the Space Hulk fans so the game can be played on a board.

**Visceral_Mass**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
The timing is (probably) down to the terms of the licence, requiring them to deliver the game within a certain time frame...

(I'm sure they'd have preferred to wait until all the Warzone pledges were delivered simply because many people won't back a second KS from a company until they do)

Wouldn't it be in the licensor's best interest to make sure a company can deliver a product (when they have no other product experience) before allowing them to create one with their IP? I doubt it is a term of the license, I think it is excitement for what they are doing, which caused them to "jump the gun".

**Visceral_Mass**

CptJake wrote:
RiTides wrote:
They will find way more than 2000 people to buy Aliens minis- when they release the retail board game with plastic models.

The same folks who backed this will use the plastic to augment their armies. Getting the larger board game community to really jump in will require a good set of rules for the board game, and good components to augment the figures. We'll see how those work out. I'm hoping the board game rules and components are decent.

They should just "borrow" the sculpts from the Tree House Kids/Palisades Toys Aliens "army men" style Aliens figures (and hire whoever did them to add the appropriate new figures) and make the boards large enough to accommodate the figures.

When I originally bought those figures the first thing I thought was "these figures should be part of a game."

**Visceral_Mass**

Wolfun wrote:
Well, has anyone asked the original artists if Prodos asked for the permission first? People seem to be jumping the guns a bit.

I don't think its jumping the gun if Prodos used the images without noting the source. If they did ask permission you'd think they'd have the common courtesy to let people know where the images came from.

**Visceral_Mass**

I think the power loader is cool and all, but it was an improvised weapon, I don't think it has much of a place in the scope of this game. One on one with a queen game, sure, one on one with anything else and the operator is a sitting duck.

**Visceral_Mass**

CptJake wrote:
Visceral_Mass wrote:
I think the power loader is cool and all, but it was an improvised weapon, I don't think it has much of a place in the scope of this game. One on one with a queen game, sure, one on one with anything else and the operator is a sitting duck.

It was a tool for a movie scene and is silly in the game. It would be like expending resources to add a forklift to a modern combat game instead of some support weapons or more troop types.

Having said that, including it just may be part of the licensing agreement.

Still, not something to waste money on in my opinion.

I don't think it was part of the license agreement, I think it is another "isn't this cool" miniature geared towards getting the "fanboys" to up their pledges.

**Visceral_Mass**

Wolfun wrote:
For everyone wondering why the Powerloader is in this:

Jarek has said that the AVP Arcade game was a major influence on him as a child and this project as a whole. The Powerloader is a boss then tough enemy in the Arcade game.

In AvP2, the EXOSUIT is also just a modified Powerloader with armour and weapons.

It also features in Colonial Marines, but the less said about that the better....

Does that mean we will eventually see many of the different alien subtypes (or the infectoids) from that game, in this game?

**Visceral_Mass**

Wolfun wrote:
What are the rules for underslung grenade launchers?

I was told same as WZR. Turn2burn resource cards for grenades.

What is the difference between the aliens that come in the box and the ones you get as add ons?

Different parts.

Same question, switch out 'aliens' with Predators'.

Same as above. Will have different heads, arm positions and weapons.

What weapons do the add on Predators come with?

This we don't know.

Talk me through a basic turn of the board game which includes combat.

Roll for Initiative. Higher is better (the only time it is).
Each squad has 2 Action Points (AP). You can use it to:
1 AP: Move.
2 AP: Run (Double move).
2 AP: Engage (double move + attack. Can only engage if there is an enemy unit/model in range).
1 AP: Attack.

Attacking:
http://postimg.org/image/g1c32q61t/
Stalker attacking using claws on Predator (http://postimg.org/image/d6lyskkyp/)

Roll under CC (15) to hit. No. of die goes by ROA (rate of attack).
Opponent has to make a save per hit.
Each point of strength over 10 subtracts 1 from Armour.
Predator rolls over A to save (15). Any unsaved rolls deal one wound.

What effect do the 3d tokens have on the board game? Under what conditions (if any) would I use 4 for each faction in the board game? Are there 4 card or acrylic tokens for each faction already included in the board game?

They're mission tokens. Destroy the eggs, collect something, etc etc. There are acrylic tokens in the set.

Do certain scenarios included in the board game have a specific tile layout? If not, how do you determine tile layout? If so, what is the effect on the scenario of not being able to duplicate the layout if you use resin tiles?

This we don't know. I imagine random.

I've asked all these over the last few days. The answers are not clear to me. Care to give me a hand?

Some of your answers are different from what Prodos gave in response to CptJake, in the posts before yours.

**Visceral_Mass**

RiTides wrote:
Still doesn't address rules much, but answers most pledge questions at least.

A solid looking set of rules for both the boardgame and the wargame is what could have gotten me to pledge instead of waiting for retail. The figures look cool and all, but I am more interested in how they function and interact with each other and whether or not the game captures the atmosphere of the properties.

**Visceral_Mass**

warboss wrote:
If anyone is interested in an Alien Queen for much cheaper, Miniature Market has the AVP Queen and Predator Clix sets on Black Friday sale for only $7 plus shipping with over 150 in stock.

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/wzk0679.html

The predator and alien packs are still very pricey but the Queen pack is quite cheap. Even if you're getting the Prodos queen, for $7 it's worth it just to pick up the egg sack for a conversion. I use my egg sacks as Tyranid spore pods for my Alien 40k army.

Not only that, but she also comes with one alien and one predator figure and a grided map and I think some tokens.

Oh my, I just bought 10 of them (for the alien/predator figure and tokens), looks like I will have some extra queens for trade.

**Visceral_Mass**

Forlorn wrote:
warboss wrote:
Did the praetorian get renamed the royal guard? I'm not seeing the former on the list of add ons.

It's the same thing. I got confused too.

If the AVP arcade game was a major source of inspiration for this game I suspect the name change may be because of that. Some of the other names seem to go along with that as well.

**Visceral_Mass**

warboss wrote:
Definitely a roller coaster ride. The deal improved enough recently to warrant a second look but in the end I just didn't feel it personally. I'll definitely pick up a predalien and female pred though when they hit the store shelves to go along with my clix. Since you guys will be getting them early, I look forward to seeing early preview pics as the backers start to get their minis.

Same here.

If the game gets good reviews, I will probably pick up the rulebook and maybe the boxed game to use with my large AVP Horrorclix collection. If they ever do one piece figures, I will buy a ton of those as well.

**Visceral_Mass**

Awesome paint jobs, but I'm not a fan of the poses.

I am also happy to see that they are redesigning the tile art.

**Visceral_Mass**

busby wrote:
The green grid worries you? That is a detail that someone painted on. How is that suspicious? That's like the artist painting camp on a marine and you being suspicious because there were not any camp patterning on the model prior to painting.

Camo not camp. On my phone.

His point was that a good artist can make a mediocre figure look great (as well as hide a figure's flaws), with some strategically painted on detail.

That is not saying that particular figure is bad in any way, just that if that figure did possess any flaws, we wouldn't be able see them due to the excellent paint job and added detail.

I think a side by side comparison picture of an unpainted and painted figure (before and after) would be a great way of showcasing a figure's sculpt.

**Visceral_Mass**

The queen's back looks "off" to me. Aren't the things on her back supposed to be more spine-like and less tube-like?

**Visceral_Mass**

Tengri wrote:
Ooo...nice power lifter and predator

Are Predators really that big in comparison to a power loader?

**Visceral_Mass**

Why would a company send you a cut proof of your product using materials that are different from the intended production materials?

Wouldn't they have to send out another cut proof, using the intended materials, since the intended materials may cause issues as well?

I wouldn't be surprised if the material used was the intended material until they saw the cut proof and decided it sucked and needed to be changed.

Looking at their proofs, I get the feeling they have little to no experience on the boardgame aspect of the game and are making rookie mistakes (warped blast template) as they try and save money.

They should have just released a couple of double sided maps with the game.

I blame Fox for giving them the license.

**Visceral_Mass**

CptJake wrote:
Promising something is KS exclusive and then going back on that is gakky. Doing it when the KS was for a special edition of the game when a retail version was going to be made draws in customers who KNOW the game is going to be available, likely cheaper, because they want the special edition.

When you then not only re-open the pledge manager to non-KS people so they can buy it via that pledge manager, but also make that special KS only edition the retail version, that is crap, plain and simple.

I get adjusting plans as in delays and even releasing the KS concurrently with retail rather than early. Adjusting plans this way is BS though, it is a breach of integrity to me. And it isn't their first breach of integrity. And seriously, how long do you think they've known they were going to release the resins as retail version? It wasn't today.

As for being as open as their contract allows, I call BS on that too. I would be willing to bet there was nothing in the contract that prevented them from telling us they switched from a gridded method of movement and range to a non-gridded method. They kept that from us way after they had made the decision and then couldn't initially get their story straight as to why.

Read the FAQ on the main KS page, and look at how many of those FAQ items have now been 'adapted' away.

Again, I understand for some folks, as long as they eventually get their toys they will be happy, and freely admit it looks like the minis will be good (though I have very serious doubts about the rules for the game which is what I am really interested in). But again, to me, they have made decisions which result in breaking promises to us backers, and I find that a gakky thing to do.

I'm sure there are also people like me that were waiting for the retail release hoping that it truly was filled with one piece miniatures ready to play right out of the box.