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Hi everyone I not so recently started playing chaos space marines and my main opponent is my friend who got me into the game and he plays Imperial guard. I haven’t been winning too much other than good luck and was hoping to get some advice to better play against him next time we have a game. We usually play anywhere from 1500-2500 point games. Here is a list of units I have access to:

HQ-

Daemon Prince
Ahriman

Troops-

Chaos cultists (30x)
Chaos space marines (10x)

Elites-
Thousand Sons (10x)
Aspiring Sorcerer
Chaos Terminators (10x)
Chaos Decimator Daemon Engine (Not gonna lie, this was a total impulse buy, just couldn’t resist)

Fast Attack-
Helldrake (2x)
Chaos Bikers (3x)

Heavy-
Forgefiend
Chaos Predator
Chaos Land Raider
Havoc Squad (5x)

Fortress-
Aegis Defense Line

Off the top of my head, here are most of his units:

Commissar Yarrick
Company Command Squad (sniper, medic, vox caster)
Infantry squad ~25 Veteran guardsmen
Storm Trooper Squad
Heavy Weapons Squad (x3 lascannons)
Leman Russ Tanks (Vanquisher BC, another as Punisher), likely has a 3rd by now
Vendetta
Basilisk
Aegis Defense Line


Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Sounds like you're getting flattened by his tanks.

My experience with IG is that if you strip down their guns, there is not much else they can hit you with. That said, your Heldrakes should be gold here, except that ADL probably shoots them up before they can even attempt to Vector one of his tanks.

So I would probably play this a little backwards.

Firstly: Thousand Sons won't help. Good for MEq, but not going to beat on the IG much since you're either shooting at nubbins that'll melt anyways or Armor that you're Inferno Bolts won't hurt.

Secondly: I'd dedicate the Heldrakes to mopping up infantry since it looks like they'll only maybe get 1 burn each before getting shot down, and since IG are so squishy, a Baleflamer will turn them into a puddle pretty easily.

With the Heldrakes tooled to eat infantry, then I'd turn my Infantry into smashing up the IG vehicles like Bikers with Meltaguns, Havocs firing Laz Cannons and then give that Decimator Conversion Beamers and punch holes in his armor from 72' out.

Got anything Melee that you could throw in the Land Raider to eat up Yarrick and that Command Squad?

akwing00 wrote:
Hi everyone I not so recently started playing chaos space marines and my main opponent is my friend who got me into the game and he plays Imperial guard. I haven’t been winning too much other than good luck and was hoping to get some advice to better play against him next time we have a game. We usually play anywhere from 1500-2500 point games. Here is a list of units I have access to:

HQ-

Daemon Prince
Ahriman

So just to start off you are spending nearly 500 points on bad units that are overkill vs IG and easily shot down.
MCs dont work well against IG, they have tons of shots and BRING IT DOWN. If you did get into combat, well hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s is nice, but most things can do that against IG.

Ahriman isnt really a good choice and is worse when all his PSA are going against T3 5+ chumps.


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akwing00 wrote:

Troops-

Chaos cultists (30x)
Chaos space marines (10x)

You are going to need more troops to win objective games

akwing00 wrote:

Elites-
Thousand Sons (10x)
Aspiring Sorcerer
Chaos Terminators (10x)
Chaos Decimator Daemon Engine (Not gonna lie, this was a total impulse buy, just couldn’t resist)

So thousand sons are terrible, and even when they might be considered not terrible they have to be shooting Space Marines out of cover. Guard have no Meq bodies so you are wasting 300 points here.
CSM Terminators are really only good as drop melta units. Break your 10 guys into 3 units of 3 with 3 combi meltas and include some power mauls on them. Drop down behind/near tanks, pop them and then charge another tank. If he wastes his plasma/lascannons on them all the better.

 Exergy wrote:

akwing00 wrote:
Hi everyone I not so recently started playing chaos space marines and my main opponent is my friend who got me into the game and he plays Imperial guard. I haven’t been winning too much other than good luck and was hoping to get some advice to better play against him next time we have a game. We usually play anywhere from 1500-2500 point games. Here is a list of units I have access to:

HQ-

Daemon Prince
Ahriman

So just to start off you are spending nearly 500 points on bad units that are overkill vs IG and easily shot down.
MCs dont work well against IG, they have tons of shots and BRING IT DOWN. If you did get into combat, well hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s is nice, but most things can do that against IG.

Ahriman isnt really a good choice and is worse when all his PSA are going against T3 5+ chumps.

To be fair though, bad choices (like the Thousand Sons) or not, they can still be tooled to handle IG. Ex: If you can hide your Daemon Prince long enough to let the IG engage your other units, then using DP to hit and run the IG Russ and such isn't a bad option. Agreed though that with all the shooting IG does, they'll have a FMC face planting in no time. Same with Ahriman: You can eat IG up easy enough, so I'd try to tool Ahriman's warp fire to trying to punch holes in the IG armor, like Doombolt and the like.

I agree with what you're saying, Exergy. There are better choices certainly, and 500 points in HQ's against IG volume of fire is painful, but if that's all he's got, then that's all he's got. lol Trying not to just completely tear up his army. XD I'm in the same boat with more Chosen than Troops. ><!!>

Ah yes Thousand Sons blah blah blah.

Ahriman is good but if you want to use him then your list needs to be built around his Warlord Trait. At a minimum, it should be built around the auto-infiltrating/outflanking unit.

You already want to use 10x Terminators. Well, that's a good auto-infiltrator but they need Mark of Tzeentch and Power Axes. Don't bother with ranged weapons.

I would infiltrate those 30 cultists if you roll well on Master of Deception.

Thousand Sons in a Rhino won't help, but 17-20 Thousand Sons on foot sure as hell would.

I don't recommend a Demon Prince against IG, but if you get into combat make sure you know when to Smash and when to attack normally so you can have some control over when you get out of combat.

Bikes would need to be 3-4 with MoN and 2x Melta vs IG.

hey guys, thnx for the advice and honestly feel free to tear up my army and tell me what i should cut. Stuff like ahriman and the thousand sons and a lot of my other units were recommended to me by my local store. From what it sounds like they really did not know what they were doing or they probably just liked my money lol.

That's a shame.

 Strasgard wrote:
Hey all, Strasgard here, and I'm looking for a bit of help in combating one of my friends' Chaos Space Marine armies! I'm quite new to the 40k universe (and this website), but I'm a veteran at lotr SBG. Anyways that aside, to the main topic! My friend and I play together, as IG and DA, against another friend (uses CSM), and we can't seem to beat him...ever. We do balance the point values, but because his total army size is much larger (he has about 3500 pts to work with, we have a combined total of ~2500), he seems to be able to counter anything we noobs throw at him. Our total army lists are as follows:

Imperial Guard List:
x1 Commissar Yarrick w/ power fist
x1 Company Command Squad w/ standard, sniper, medic, vox caster
x1 Infantry squad w/ x25 Veteran guardsmen, 2 grenade launchers, 1 flamer
x1 Storm Trooper Squad w/ x9 troopers, 1 sgt, 1 flamer
x1 Heavy Weapons Squad w/ x3 lascannons
x2 Leman Russ Tanks 1 w/ Vanquisher BC, another w/ Punisher GC
x1 Vendetta
x1 Basilisk

Dark Angels List:
x1 Azriel w/ combi-weapon, power sword
x1 Terminators Squad w/ 5 terminators in it (mainly geared for CC)
x1Terminator Chapions squads w/ 5 terminators in it (all geard for CC)
x1 Tactical Marine Squad w/ 9 marines, 1 sgt, 1 plasma cannon, 1 plasma rifle
x1 Raven Wing biker squad w/ 3 bikers

Chaos Space Marine List:
x1 Daemon Prince w/ black mace, wings
x1 Ahrmin
x1 CSM squad w/9 marines, 1 sgt
x1 thousand suns squad w/9 marines, 1 sorcerer sgt
x1 cultist squad w/ 15 cultists
x1 predator tank w/ lascannons
x1 Spartan Assault land raider
x2 terminator squads w/ 10 total, geared for range/ AT
x1 Forge Fiend
x2 Hell Drakes w/ 1 autocannon, 1 bale flamer
x1 daemon engine

Any advice would be greatly appreciated guys! (note: if ive left any weapons off the list, its because we designate them as different weapons from game to game and are therefore impossible to guess what will be used)

Is this your friend?

Though I'm loathe to offer advice to a guy that wants to fight my beloved IG, I've noticed Chaos has some wonderful tools for wrecking shop. I play IG and my main opponent runs Black Legion.

Always take the Bale Flamer on your Heldrakes. The Autocannon is good, sure, but the Bale Flamer will murder any Guardsmen, cover or not. Besides, you can always Vector Strike the armored units. I've lost more vehicles to Vector Strikes than Autocannons.

Equip your Terminators with Combi weapons so you can double your threat radius. Powerfists will wreck vehicles but bolters will destroy infantry. You don't need to invest a lot of points in your guys to beat Guard in close combat, but it can't hurt to try and outshoot them if you have the chance. Of course, as a CSM, you need to try and get into combat as soon as you can. Try and kill some dudes before making that charge though. Sure, you have 5 Terminators with a 2+, but the more saves you have to take, the more you end up failing. A 20-man IG squad can pump out 40 Rapid Fire lasgun shots (assuming no special weapons) on your charge so try and thin the herd before connecting.

Anything that affects low leadership is a good thing to bring along. Psychic Shriek on your Sorcerer can kill loads of men at once and that short range shouldn't trouble you too badly. Giving your flying Demon Prince a shooting attack isn't a bad idea either; lets him do something in between Swooping and Gliding. And if you have enough flying targets, he'll have to decide what the Quad Gun needs to shoot first. Target saturation is a good thing to have.

IG tanks will outshoot yours any day of the week. Use those Cultists as a cheap cover save for your tanks or advancing infantry. That Predator will last a lot longer if the IG have to shoot through your 5+ meat shield first. And Dirge Casters on the vehicles. An IG squad that can't fire Overwatch is screwed. Alternatively, use the Cultists to charge and eat Overwatch while your bigger, scarier things enter the melee unharmed. Always useful. Don't forget to use those smoke launchers!

Bikes armed with meltas are also quite useful because they can get to an advantageous position, do their damage, then run away before the IG can shoot back. I've lost some tanks to this hit-and-run stuff.

Hope some of this is useful. These are just things I've noticed in my regular bouts against Chaos.

 Brometheus wrote:


You already want to use 10x Terminators. Well, that's a good auto-infiltrator but they need Mark of Tzeentch and Power Axes. Don't bother with ranged weapons.

Why power axes. Nothing in IG has a 2+ or 3+ save. Power mauls strike before IG, double out the characters, and are better against vehicles(where you will get more damage results total put less chance of blowing up)

 Brometheus wrote:

Thousand Sons in a Rhino won't help, but 17-20 Thousand Sons on foot sure as hell would.

So 20 Tsons is ~540 points?
The sorcerer is stuck shooting at whatever the sons target. How much more effective shooting are they than 20CSM with bolters against T3 5+ IG ?(not at all) How much more survivable are they vs lasguns?(not at all) Can they kill tanks? (not really) Now they are going to be better against taking ordinace pie plates and plasma weapons/hotshot lasguns but then so would being in cover. I cannot advise taking Tsons against IG, especilly when you already have 2 heldrakes.

I would never count on a helldrake doing anything against IG. There's this thing called a Vendetta.........

akwing00 wrote:
hey guys, thnx for the advice and honestly feel free to tear up my army and tell me what i should cut. Stuff like ahriman and the thousand sons and a lot of my other units were recommended to me by my local store. From what it sounds like they really did not know what they were doing or they probably just liked my money lol.

I really want to like Tsons, and I will say this. They can be alright against space marines but not very good against IG.
Daemon princes are alright for killing elite infantry, but against IG, they will likely easily wipe a cheap squad and then get gunned down. Again they are good, but not that good against IG

Ahriman is a great model, and can be a good model for a lvl 3 unmarked sorcerer which is good against IG.

Terminators are good, I just like the idea of dropping them via deep strike


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Martel732 wrote:
I would never count on a helldrake doing anything against IG. There's this thing called a Vendetta.........

Vendettas cannot prevent them from coming onto the board, once they do that they can Vector Strike something and then flame something. BBQ anything bunched up. Against IG it likely wont completely destroy the army in one pass, but it will do something.

Even after the first turn, the vendettas might not be able to down them in one turn so they can BBQ more units.

And if you didnt have the drakes, the Forgefined and preditors would be vendetta prey, so really it is either no vehicles or deal with the vendettas and hope your opponenet doesnt bring 9 (if he does, take all infantry)

Axes should be on all CSM termies anyways :p

And why are we assuming the Aspiring Sorcerer even matters? For anything?

 Brometheus wrote:
Axes should be on all CSM termies anyways :p

And why are we assuming the Aspiring Sorcerer even matters? For anything?

I like mauls on my terminators. TAC choice. When I tailor a bit it's a mix of axes and mauls with a single claw or two for look.
the aspiring sorcerer matters because you have to pay 60 points for him

As a IG player if you are having problems with russes your only bets are getting close and assaulting them or using melta, Otherwise do not waste shots on them.

Focus on shooting up the guardsmen from a distance and once you get close go for the tanks. Killing his fragile troops means that he can only tie if he denies you all other objectives.

Dont even try to vector strike a russ, isnt the strength only 7? which means you can only glance the side armor of 13, have fun. Like I said melta or assault. Or ally in something with lance.

Alright, so for sure I'll cut out the thousand sons and ahriman, this way I have a lot more points to use for more troops. I think I want to keep the daemon prince just as another model in the sky my friend has to deal with.

I really like the idea, of the 3x terminator squads with melta weapons deep striking. I was just always hesitant to deep strike because of the slim chance of that failing. I'll also equip the bikers with melta guns as well. I'll also make sure to dedicate the helldrakes towards his infantry using the flamers. As for my havoc squad, how do you guys think I should outfit them?

All this is help is really great guys, I do appreciate the advice. Is there anything else I should definitely do or cut out going forward?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mr_bruno wrote:

 Strasgard wrote:
Hey all, Strasgard here, and I'm looking for a bit of help in combating one of my friends' Chaos Space Marine armies! I'm quite new to the 40k universe (and this website), but I'm a veteran at lotr SBG. Anyways that aside, to the main topic! My friend and I play together, as IG and DA, against another friend (uses CSM), and we can't seem to beat him...ever. We do balance the point values, but because his total army size is much larger (he has about 3500 pts to work with, we have a combined total of ~2500), he seems to be able to counter anything we noobs throw at him. Our total army lists are as follows:

Imperial Guard List:
x1 Commissar Yarrick w/ power fist
x1 Company Command Squad w/ standard, sniper, medic, vox caster
x1 Infantry squad w/ x25 Veteran guardsmen, 2 grenade launchers, 1 flamer
x1 Storm Trooper Squad w/ x9 troopers, 1 sgt, 1 flamer
x1 Heavy Weapons Squad w/ x3 lascannons
x2 Leman Russ Tanks 1 w/ Vanquisher BC, another w/ Punisher GC
x1 Vendetta
x1 Basilisk

Dark Angels List:
x1 Azriel w/ combi-weapon, power sword
x1 Terminators Squad w/ 5 terminators in it (mainly geared for CC)
x1Terminator Chapions squads w/ 5 terminators in it (all geard for CC)
x1 Tactical Marine Squad w/ 9 marines, 1 sgt, 1 plasma cannon, 1 plasma rifle
x1 Raven Wing biker squad w/ 3 bikers

Chaos Space Marine List:
x1 Daemon Prince w/ black mace, wings
x1 Ahrmin
x1 CSM squad w/9 marines, 1 sgt
x1 thousand suns squad w/9 marines, 1 sorcerer sgt
x1 cultist squad w/ 15 cultists
x1 predator tank w/ lascannons
x1 Spartan Assault land raider
x2 terminator squads w/ 10 total, geared for range/ AT
x1 Forge Fiend
x2 Hell Drakes w/ 1 autocannon, 1 bale flamer
x1 daemon engine

Any advice would be greatly appreciated guys! (note: if ive left any weapons off the list, its because we designate them as different weapons from game to game and are therefore impossible to guess what will be used)

Is this your friend?

also yes that does happen to be my friend

Thousand Sons: So here is the deal with Thousand Sons. They get an Invuln save which means they don't have to be in cover as much, which is a good thing because this brings up their big draw back which is Slow and Purposeful. <--This stupid little add-on here ensures that not only do your TS's not get into any fire fights quick, but that they also stand around looking cool when someone charges them. So basically, TS are like having Marine Killers that never have to take cover. The Sorcerer helps some, but with bigger stacks of TS rapid firing inferno bolts, and given the nature of Tzeentch's abilities, you'll likely be wasting that Warp Charge before using it effectively unless you're shooting at Heavy Infantry and HQ's.

Vendetta: Unfortunately, yes, any other flier is going to make Heldrakes into Thanksgiving dinners. Honestly, any flier will do that to Heldrakes. But then Heldrakes aren't exactly about fighting in the sky and if you're trying to do that then you need the Hades Autocannon. Heldrakes are for roasting squishies and plowing head long into those bigger guys (like GK Baby Carriages) and knocking them over. So if you're playing you're Drakes that way, then you are trying to outrun Vendettas. Not catch them. On and off the board is my suggestion, to keep them alive as long as possible. With that said, Daemonforge is something you'll probably use up right off the bat to ensure you get the best hit possible when you can.

Terminators: The purpose of these guys, as I've seen, is interesting to say the least, especially when you think about the expression "Termicide." That said, I like the idea of duel purposing these guys. Yes. I know that's a bad word in 40k because maximum effect and blah-blah, but here is what I mean. Say there is a really stubborn Land Raider(eq) on the board and you just can't get rid of him. Take Terminators with Combi-Melta's, hope for a good drop behind their armor and let a rip before you get a chance to charge the meaty bits inside. The reason why this is a gamble is because the Deep Strike (as most should know) doesn't let you Charge in the next turn. Thankfully, Termie's get that 2+ armor, and if you did it right, then you probably put some wreckage between you and anyone getting cute AND, if you went Mark of Tzeentch instead of Nurgle, then you also gave them 4+ Invuln. In a way, Tzeentch Termies are like roid-rage Thousand Sons. When it comes to Termies in CC, it's up to your personal preference.

With CCW on Termies, it's just a matter of personal preference and what you want them to do. True enough, the Power Maul will probably land you a better hit against vehicles.(giving you a chance to pen on a 6 against armor 10) but the Ax will get you through some tougher Heavy Infantry armor. Dunno if IG has any 2+'s or not, but if they are a concern, then you might want an ax. Unfortunately with the ax, you'll also be hitting at I1. Now here is something to keep in mind though with Termies. If you are expecting the Melta's to do their job or you plan to have your Termies dealing with more than 1 vehicle (since Combi-melta's only give you one shot) then the only thing your Termies would need extra to deal with a vehicle would be a Chainfist. And, im(amateur)o, I think you could make that guy even more effective by putting a Lightening Claw on the other fist so that when the vehicle was done with, you can turn that claw into the infantry. Maybe two termies with Chainfist - Lightening Claw out of the bunch and give the rest Whomping Sticks/Power Axes and Combi-Meltas.

Termicide, maximized, in my book.

Hope this helps! Also, Berzerkers in a Land Raider w/ Dirge Casters. That'll make some IG nervous. +__+

Edit: For your Havocs, I'd give them all Missile Launchers or Laz Cannons, depending on what you think you'll have more problems with.
Laz-Cannons to punch holes in that thick 14 Armor (while also maximizing their range)
Missile Launchers to punch holes in the infantry, while giving you some flexibility with both the Vendetta and some lighter vehicles (since Havocs can take Flakk missiles too)

@TheRedWingArmada

thanks for all the tips! i'll definitly get to working on all this asap


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are there any HQ's that you would recommend for CSM just in general? Since I'm taking out Ahriman.

 Exergy wrote:

I like mauls on my terminators. TAC choice. When I tailor a bit it's a mix of axes and mauls with a single claw or two for look.
the aspiring sorcerer matters because you have to pay 60 points for him

You do bring up good points sir. I prefer Force Staves on my Aspiring Sorcerers but Axes on Terminators.

but that is a discussion that I will leave out of here!

I actually reeeeally like Ahriman (though I don't have him) and here is a bit about that. XD

Everyone talks about Ahriman shooting 4 Witchfires at once and being optimal, blah blah, but unless you play like me (relatively pointless/apoc-style) and have multiple sorcerers on the field to make up for the lack of supportive psyker abilities, then you are extremely lucky if you can fire 4 Witchfires in 1 go. Considering some may be 1 Warp Point and others 2, at BEST you might get to shoot 3.

So I look at Ahriman as just a superior Psyker and I run all of my Psykes at LvL 3, all the time. If I get a CSMaemon Prince of Tzeentch, he'll likely have 3 as well and people will call me crazy, but he'll still be awesomesauce. lol. That said, with Ahriman, especially if I'm in your position of playing by the rules and all that jazz, then I'd keep Ahriman with the strategy of getting 1 Buff, 1 Malediction, 1 Witchfire that'll kill a vehicle (so since you have to roll once on Tzeentch, hope for Doombolt in that case since it has Detonate) and then another Witchfire (Psychic Shriek, I believe is a Primaris that's pretty awesome against low Ld hordes) for dealing with infantry of whatever kind.

Granted, it all comes down to the roll so that's going to be a tough order to fill, but if that is what you are planning for and you have to adjust accordingly when that doesn't happen, then you may end up using Ahriman to the fullest shooty at his disposal. But you don't really want a Psyker for that. You want them to support the rest of your army.

So 4 Witchfires on Ahriman in that case just becomes a bonus on a model I already like for being a Super Psyker.

All of that said, the reason I don't have Ahriman right now and am not broken up about it, especially considering people frown on me bringing 5 HQ's to a fight (XD) is because there are things my Army needs that Ahriman can't provide, that a plain ol' Lvl 3 Sorcerer is better suited toward.

I know some players like to suggest Chaos Lord with some such combination of craziness (like Juggernaut + Axe of Blind Fury, running with Khorne Biker nonsense or Khorn Spwan, stuff like that), but, im(amateur)o, with armies like the Tau being so shooty, Overwatch being a problem for armies trying to get into melee and points being award for First Blood and Slay the Warlord, Chaos Lords just seem to be more of a liability than anything.

Going back to the Sorcerer v. Ahriman? Sorcerers can take mounts. In particular, and in the particular way I use my Sorcerer, (which players will argue) here is how I roll mine:

Sorcerer lvl 3
-Force Sword, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, Power Armor, Frag/Krak/Melta
-You can add or take away other stuff as you'd like, but bare bones, I take G.o.M., Spell Familiar, Mark of Tzeentch, Sigil of Corruption, Disc of Tzeentch.

With MoTz, Sigil of Corruption and Disc of Tzeentch, you give your Sorcerer a Jetbike to fly around on, which also gives him +T1, which is like being a mobile Nurgle Sorcerer in a way. Pretty sweet deal when you also realize you're sitting on a 3+ Invulnerable Save as well.

Now the argument I've gotten into in the past is "Why BBoS?" The answer is simple: Sometimes I get Doombolt, and that's good for vehicles and not so much MEq. Witchfire is also not entirely reliable, especially when you're dealing with Rival Psykers and Perils of the Warp. With as fragile as a Psyker can be, and as I said, you want him casting Blessings and Maledictions first, it's best to limit what you Cast as much as possible. Especially when you're Lvl 3 and dealing with Abilities that can be Warp Charge 1 or 2. Sometimes you'll burn them all on Blessings and Mals. Sometimes you'll need to put a whole in a Land Raider. And sometimes, you'll need to pretend to be a Heldrake.

That blend of versatility with the Chaos Sorcerer is beautiful, imo. More so than a Daemon Prince psyker, especially when you consider that another big part of getting in on your enemy sometimes is LOS and DP's are just big flying targets.

With a Jetbike Sorcerer, you can still hide while you torment your enemy with BBoS fire, support Psyker Abilities, Superior Movement, and did I mention that a lvl 3 psyker will ruin your enemies chances at casting as well? Always fun to DtW on a 4+. >D

After all that, other good HQ choices, depending on what you're doing and what you want might be guys like Kharn, Typhus or even a Warpsmith to keep some of your own vehicles running, while you torture your enemies and also bomb out some of their cover saves.


One final note about Daemon Prince. I know he's strong and all, especially a Tzeentch one with Psyker abilities, Wings and the Black Mace, however, they are still incredibly large. I would say that is their largest downside, in addition to being able to be insta-killed. Seriously, I don't want my armies being shot at, at all, if I can help it, and often times the best strategy for me is simply not giving them a target to shoot at.

It's why my Sorcerer can be such a pain to enemies sometimes. I'll fly over to a unit you kept hidden and torch them to a cinder, and because they were so isolated, no one else will be able to shoot and avenge them. XD

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I actually reeeeally like Ahriman (though I don't have him) and here is a bit about that. XD

Everyone talks about Ahriman shooting 4 Witchfires at once and being optimal, blah blah, but unless you play like me (relatively pointless/apoc-style) and have multiple sorcerers on the field to make up for the lack of supportive psyker abilities, then you are extremely lucky if you can fire 4 Witchfires in 1 go. Considering some may be 1 Warp Point and others 2, at BEST you might get to shoot 3.

So I look at Ahriman as just a superior Psyker and I run all of my Psykes at LvL 3, all the time. If I get a CSMaemon Prince of Tzeentch, he'll likely have 3 as well and people will call me crazy, but he'll still be awesomesauce. lol. That said, with Ahriman, especially if I'm in your position of playing by the rules and all that jazz, then I'd keep Ahriman with the strategy of getting 1 Buff, 1 Malediction, 1 Witchfire that'll kill a vehicle (so since you have to roll once on Tzeentch, hope for Doombolt in that case since it has Detonate) and then another Witchfire (Psychic Shriek, I believe is a Primaris that's pretty awesome against low Ld hordes) for dealing with infantry of whatever kind.

Granted, it all comes down to the roll so that's going to be a tough order to fill, but if that is what you are planning for and you have to adjust accordingly when that doesn't happen, then you may end up using Ahriman to the fullest shooty at his disposal. But you don't really want a Psyker for that. You want them to support the rest of your army.

So 4 Witchfires on Ahriman in that case just becomes a bonus on a model I already like for being a Super Psyker.

All of that said, the reason I don't have Ahriman right now and am not broken up about it, especially considering people frown on me bringing 5 HQ's to a fight (XD) is because there are things my Army needs that Ahriman can't provide, that a plain ol' Lvl 3 Sorcerer is better suited toward.

I know some players like to suggest Chaos Lord with some such combination of craziness (like Juggernaut + Axe of Blind Fury, running with Khorne Biker nonsense or Khorn Spwan, stuff like that), but, im(amateur)o, with armies like the Tau being so shooty, Overwatch being a problem for armies trying to get into melee and points being award for First Blood and Slay the Warlord, Chaos Lords just seem to be more of a liability than anything.

Going back to the Sorcerer v. Ahriman? Sorcerers can take mounts. In particular, and in the particular way I use my Sorcerer, (which players will argue) here is how I roll mine:

Sorcerer lvl 3
-Force Sword, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, Power Armor, Frag/Krak/Melta
-You can add or take away other stuff as you'd like, but bare bones, I take G.o.M., Spell Familiar, Mark of Tzeentch, Sigil of Corruption, Disc of Tzeentch.

With MoTz, Sigil of Corruption and Disc of Tzeentch, you give your Sorcerer a Jetbike to fly around on, which also gives him +T1, which is like being a mobile Nurgle Sorcerer in a way. Pretty sweet deal when you also realize you're sitting on a 3+ Invulnerable Save as well.

Now the argument I've gotten into in the past is "Why BBoS?" The answer is simple: Sometimes I get Doombolt, and that's good for vehicles and not so much MEq. Witchfire is also not entirely reliable, especially when you're dealing with Rival Psykers and Perils of the Warp. With as fragile as a Psyker can be, and as I said, you want him casting Blessings and Maledictions first, it's best to limit what you Cast as much as possible. Especially when you're Lvl 3 and dealing with Abilities that can be Warp Charge 1 or 2. Sometimes you'll burn them all on Blessings and Mals. Sometimes you'll need to put a whole in a Land Raider. And sometimes, you'll need to pretend to be a Heldrake.

That blend of versatility with the Chaos Sorcerer is beautiful, imo. More so than a Daemon Prince psyker, especially when you consider that another big part of getting in on your enemy sometimes is LOS and DP's are just big flying targets.

With a Jetbike Sorcerer, you can still hide while you torment your enemy with BBoS fire, support Psyker Abilities, Superior Movement, and did I mention that a lvl 3 psyker will ruin your enemies chances at casting as well? Always fun to DtW on a 4+. >D

After all that, other good HQ choices, depending on what you're doing and what you want might be guys like Kharn, Typhus or even a Warpsmith to keep some of your own vehicles running, while you torture your enemies and also bomb out some of their cover saves.


One final note about Daemon Prince. I know he's strong and all, especially a Tzeentch one with Psyker abilities, Wings and the Black Mace, however, they are still incredibly large. I would say that is their largest downside, in addition to being able to be insta-killed. Seriously, I don't want my armies being shot at, at all, if I can help it, and often times the best strategy for me is simply not giving them a target to shoot at.

It's why my Sorcerer can be such a pain to enemies sometimes. I'll fly over to a unit you kept hidden and torch them to a cinder, and because they were so isolated, no one else will be able to shoot and avenge them. XD

Hmmm, I never really considered a regular chaos sorcerer before and you do make him sound pretty compelling. I also completely missed the part about mounts such as the disc in my codex so I'll definitely take a look at that as well.

Yeah, apparently Chaos Lord with Mark of Khorne on a Juggernaut is supposed to be pretty brutal.

If I could put Ahriman on a Disc, I'd be in Chaos Heaven...Hell.

If Ahriman could take a spell familiar you'd see him more too.

If you're going to run Terminators on melta duty, you might as well take Obliterators instead. Ideally with MON so only Demolishers can ID them.

Also, lol @ both you and strasgard saying you need help against each other.

@TheRedWingArmada

I think I'm going to go with a chaos sorcerer with the same gear and upgrades as you as my HQ and see how I do in my next game. I'll keep the daemon prince as my 2nd HQ for now as well but make all the other changes suggested by everyone. Wish me luck and I'll let you guys know how it goes

KHORNE LORD ON JUGGERNAUT WITH AXE OF BLIND FURY!

^^iiiMILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!!!^^

Vs. IG as chaos, you need to rely on Helldrakes to BBQ the troops, then use fast attack and fast Beefy HQ's to go in and finish the job. DP of Tzeentch.... or nurgle for the cover save, and wings... then fly up and smash the tanks if you can.

Also you could attach a cheap fearless character to those cultists and force him to choose between spending all his shots killing your troop or going for the more threatening stuff coming towards him.

I would drop TSons, Ahriman, Aegis defense line, and anything that is not biker, Flying monstrous creature or beast, and either have a lot of resilient fearless squads of troops (making it very hard for him to shoot them all down without coming to you).

Then directly target his troops in any kind of objectives mission because that is the key to winning the game, and the most advantage from your helldrakes. Vs. IG if you try to win the game by shooting you will lose every time because your army has inferior shooting.

I would be pretty surprised if Hell turkeys can take enough IG models off the table to matter, especially if Vendettas are involved.

Ok guys, I think these are some of the units I'm set on adding in:

HQ

Chaos sorcerer with disc of tzeentch
KHORNE LORD ON JUGGERNAUT WITH AXE OF BLIND FURY (cause this guy is indeed badass)
which replaced the daemon prince which most people suggested I remove

Troops (which ill figure out how many I should put in depending on the amount of points we are playing)

lots of chaos cultists
chaos space marines

and not sure if i should add khorne berzerkers since they are a troop choice now

Elite

3 units of 3 chaos terminators for deepstriking and melta weapons

@Wilytank I know you mentioned using obliterators instead of terminators for this job. I haven't really used them before so can I ask why you think this would be better?

Fast attack

x2 helldrakes with baleflamers
x3 chaos bikers

Heavy

forgefiend
chaos predator
havoc squad

I'm still working on all the little details and weapons but i think this is an improvement.

Thousand Sons can be good, and Outflanking is a very good way to get Linebreaker. Don't forget, the Sons can charge after firing their bolters due to SnP having Relentless too. And the Sorcerer in there will have some sort of Tzeentch power, any of the 3 non-primaris powers are actually good (though the Wind requires Warp Charge 2, so no go there....that does suck actually). But at least he's included in the unit cost now with no extra cost for a power!

Terminators will be very expensive for an Outflanking shooty unit, but they definitely come out of Reserves better than Obliterators because of their squad size, and Tzeentchy ones will have that 4++.

But the Nurgle Obliterators will be much better for Outflanking, and they are certainly Infantry. However I recommend just Infiltrating them to either be closer to the enemy or just for better firing position after deployment (like on top of a ruin just outside of your zone). They'd really wreak havoc on IG though Outflanking because of possible side armor shots....but you really don't know which side of the table they'll come in.

Heldrakes of course will do very nice things for you. JuggerLord is awesome! But I prefer him with Spawn. 3 Bikers with a Slaanesh Steed lord outflanking with 2 melta guns and a combi-melta and Acute Senses, now that's scary for IG....but he wouldn't get along with the JuggerLord very well, though I think they are actually allowed to join the same unit so long as those bikers were unMarked.