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So the bomber seems pretty good to me. I play Enclaves in very competitive circles and have been considering adding one. I like having some AA that isn't a 235 point earth-casted, velocity-tracked riptide or a 210-300 point broadside unit. It's also not useless against ground targets. The interceptor drones give you that little extra too if you're unlucky enough to get first turn against other fliers.

Thoughts? Is it good or do we stick to the above and skyrays?

The tau filers try to cover all bases, and fail to properly cover any single one.

They are "ok" at every job you can think of, but given they are not extremely good at anything, they rarely worth it.

I think the Sunshark is a lot better than what people give it credit for. Definitely worth a try, at the very least.

The sunshark is actually quite good. If I was running Tau, I'd give it a chance. It is especially potent at hunting down other flyers due to its 360 arc of fire. You just have to be careful with it due to its rather fragile nature.

Tau flyers have the advantage that their weapons are on turrets, so they have a much easier time taking shots at enemy flyer rear armor.

Their overal weaponry is about average, and it overlaps with much of the Tau army as a whole's sweet spot, but it is still useful and effective.

I think that two Razorsharks in a tau list can play a pretty scary Air superiority role.

6 S7 shots going forward into something
4 S7 shots hitting the back of an enemy flyer if it overshoots/if that's your intention

or

4 S7 / S8AP3 Pie hitting anywhere on the ground


two of these are a lot better than people give them credit for.

Its a shame the models are godawful Vendetta wannabes

The quad ion is only AP4, even on blast mode.

If it could get AP3 blasts, it would have been more worthy-but right now, he just doesn't get the job done properly against anything. its an "almost good enough" against any possible target.

The Sunshark is mediocre at best. Remember that your drones can't fire until they disembark*, and when they do they're too fragile to survive to get a second shot. So you have a twin-linked missile pod with a 360* turret, two one-shot seeker missiles, two one-shot missile pods, and an awkward pulse rifle bomb that you sometimes get to drop twice. You're spending a lot of points for those one-shot weapons and not really getting very much compared to taking crisis suits with two missile pods and skyfire.


*They are NOT weapons. Passengers can not shoot if you move at cruising speed, and flyers move at cruising speed any time they move more than 18". Since you can't measure with mathematical precision your flyer will always move either 18.00000000000000000000001" and the drones will be unable to shoot, or 17.999999999999999999999999" and instantly die for failing to make the mandatory 18" minimum move. Even if your opponent generously allows you to move some other distance and pretend that it was exactly 18" this is still a severe constraint on your maneuvering options and you'll often have to choose between making a decent move and getting to shoot with your drones.

Passengers can still fire if their ride traveld at cruising speed. They can only snap fire though. Although for bs 2 drones it doesn't make a world of difference. (page 78 if you want a rules quote)

 Peregrine wrote:
*They are NOT weapons. Passengers can not shoot if you move at cruising speed, and flyers move at cruising speed any time they move more than 18". Since you can't measure with mathematical precision your flyer will always move either 18.00000000000000000000001" and the drones will be unable to shoot, or 17.999999999999999999999999" and instantly die for failing to make the mandatory 18" minimum move. Even if your opponent generously allows you to move some other distance and pretend that it was exactly 18" this is still a severe constraint on your maneuvering options and you'll often have to choose between making a decent move and getting to shoot with your drones.

If somebody actually tries to protest about an inexact 18" move, the only thing that should prevent you from punching them in the face is the law.

 Rustbucket3437 wrote:
Passengers can still fire if their ride traveld at cruising speed. They can only snap fire though. Although for bs 2 drones it doesn't make a world of difference. (page 78 if you want a rules quote)

Oops. You're right, I was thinking of the fact that they can't ever use their blast shot while disembarked. Still, twin-linked BS 1 is approximately BS 2, so you're shooting 2-4 BS 2 "autocannon" shots at something along with the missile pod. That's pretty pathetic shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talore wrote:
If somebody actually tries to protest about an inexact 18" move, the only thing that should prevent you from punching them in the face is the law.

Yeah, because asking people to play by the rules of the game instead of demanding special privileges to make their units better really deserves violence...

The fragility is why I prefer the cheaper Razorshark. You'll do the same amount of damage before it gets shot down, but it won't be quite as much of a loss.

Plus their large blast is not only a bit deadlier, but it also won't jam.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Talore wrote:
If somebody actually tries to protest about an inexact 18" move, the only thing that should prevent you from punching them in the face is the law.

Yeah, because asking people to play by the rules of the game instead of demanding special privileges to make their units better really deserves violence...

being draconian about the fact that you cannot guarantee 18" when measuring as close to it as you can not "playing by the rules" it is flat bad sportsmanship. I'm not saying you should allow an extra 1/32nd of an inch or anything, just allow for as close as they can get(measuring 18" from the front and putting the model there as best you can).

 Peregrine wrote:

 Talore wrote:
If somebody actually tries to protest about an inexact 18" move, the only thing that should prevent you from punching them in the face is the law.

Yeah, because asking people to play by the rules of the game instead of demanding special privileges to make their units better really deserves violence...

a) The violence was a joke, obviously.
b) So you measure every single movement of your opponent with a microscope? In the case that anyone could actually bear to play with you, yeah I guess you shouldn't give a special privilege to your opponent in that instance. For the rest of us reasonable people who accept that the person didn't move that guardsman a micrometre over 6", that those models aren't a micrometre over the mythical perfect 2" unit coherency and so on, anyone who wouldn't accept an 18" movement as being precise would have good cause to tell the protester to find a different game.

 Talore wrote:
b) So you measure every single movement of your opponent with a microscope?

No, of course not. But if you're claiming a move or sequence of actions that can only happen if you have measured your movement distance with impossible precision then I see no reason to permit you to do it. You indisputably have not moved 18" and so you must snap fire the passengers.

For the rest of us reasonable people who accept that the person didn't move that guardsman a micrometre over 6", that those models aren't a micrometre over the mythical perfect 2" unit coherency and so on, anyone who wouldn't accept an 18" movement as being precise would have good cause to tell the protester to find a different game.

Those are completely different situations because you don't need to have a perfect mathematically precise 6" or 2" to have a legal move. You can move just slightly under 6" and have your models just slightly under 2" apart and have a clearly legal move.

The reason why you don't see a need to permit it is because you are WAAC, no matter what special definitions you invent for it. If the Sunshark is such a mediocre unit "even if you can move exactly 18" then why not let your opponent play it like that anyways? Surely you can beat it anyways without being that much more of a TFG if it is so bad.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Talore wrote:
b) So you measure every single movement of your opponent with a microscope?

No, of course not. But if you're claiming a move or sequence of actions that can only happen if you have measured your movement distance with impossible precision then I see no reason to permit you to do it. You indisputably have not moved 18" and so you must snap fire the passengers.

For the rest of us reasonable people who accept that the person didn't move that guardsman a micrometre over 6", that those models aren't a micrometre over the mythical perfect 2" unit coherency and so on, anyone who wouldn't accept an 18" movement as being precise would have good cause to tell the protester to find a different game.

Those are completely different situations because you don't need to have a perfect mathematically precise 6" or 2" to have a legal move. You can move just slightly under 6" and have your models just slightly under 2" apart and have a clearly legal move.

Wow, this is a very telling statement. You really can't feasibly allow someone who makes their best attempt at moving a unit 18" exactly, to count it as having moved 18" and fire their passengers as normal BS? I can't see not allowing them do it.

I'm curious as to why the made tau flier weapons ap4? Ap 4 isnt gonna harm anything it's shooting at. Fmc's will laugh then vector strike you, mc's
and meq are gonna laugh off the st7 shots.

Marines and 3+ are pretty common in the game, but the Tau already have a fair amount of AP3 and AP2 weaponry.

I've noticed that all the flyers post Chaos: Space marines have been toned down. GW tends to over react some in the codecies. So they saw all the triple dragons flying around and stepped it back for the follow on codexes. Same with the riptides, after they turned out so dominant, the Wraithknight got a much higher points cost then it otherwise would have.

Durandal wrote:
Marines and 3+ are pretty common in the game, but the Tau already have a fair amount of AP3 and AP2 weaponry.

I've noticed that all the flyers post Chaos: Space marines have been toned down. GW tends to over react some in the codecies. So they saw all the triple dragons flying around and stepped it back for the follow on codexes. Same with the riptides, after they turned out so dominant, the Wraithknight got a much higher points cost then it otherwise would have.

Then what function do the Tau fliers serve if their only good at killing 4+sv's? A single razorshark has the same firepower a single missleside has, so that base is covered. The sunshark drops a large blast, but riptides and hammerheads do it better. Its not durable, if you need durable use the hammerhead, or riptide. If the flier was AV12 I could see myself using one outside of friendly games, but since it goes down just as fast as eldar fliers I see no purpose.

Like i said other than the barracuda what function do tau fliers serve?

the sheer fact that the pi plate is AP4 makes me not want it. Ionheads are way cheaper, more durable, and have a better gun. Yes it cant shoot fliers but thats what a skyray is for since you alwyas have one anyway.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the sheer fact that the pi plate is AP4 makes me not want it. Ionheads are way cheaper, more durable, and have a better gun. Yes it cant shoot fliers but thats what a skyray is for since you alwyas have one anyway.

Another problem is that a better option exists in the form of the Barracuda. It has more weapons, with lower AP, on a tougher body. While its main cannon is only front mounted, it has two S5 ignore jink turrets for shooting the tail of enemy fliers. It is also a better point cost.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Talore wrote:
b) So you measure every single movement of your opponent with a microscope?

No, of course not. But if you're claiming a move or sequence of actions that can only happen if you have measured your movement distance with impossible precision then I see no reason to permit you to do it. You indisputably have not moved 18" and so you must snap fire the passengers.

For the rest of us reasonable people who accept that the person didn't move that guardsman a micrometre over 6", that those models aren't a micrometre over the mythical perfect 2" unit coherency and so on, anyone who wouldn't accept an 18" movement as being precise would have good cause to tell the protester to find a different game.

Those are completely different situations because you don't need to have a perfect mathematically precise 6" or 2" to have a legal move. You can move just slightly under 6" and have your models just slightly under 2" apart and have a clearly legal move.

That is...a quite insane stance to take, I hope you`re just trying to make a point and that you won`t actually put any opponent through this discussion.

The flyer seems kind of meh, not delivering enough killing power in any particular role, and filling niches that other units simply do much better.

While im glad Tau arent the ones with it (would be kinda unfair to give us one with the currect codex we got anyway), someone besides marines needs a fething flier thats actually good. Is there a single one that you can bring 1-2 of and cause the game to suddenly shift that DOESNT belong to a marine dex? Necrons are the closest, but even they arent that great unless spammed. One or two necron fliers (either of them) doesnt phase me as either orks or tau one bit. 5+ is when i start going "Uho"

Also i avoid forgeworld. For two reasons, 1) cost lol....barracuda costs like $100 USD or something like that ouch and 2) while it may balance out some codexes, like orks that need the help badly, it kinda enables some ultimate cheese for others. Outside grot tanks or mega dredds, who even brings anything from FW that isnt insanely strong? XV107 comes to mind on the insanely strong factor lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
While im glad Tau arent the ones with it (would be kinda unfair to give us one with the currect codex we got anyway), someone besides marines needs a fething flier thats actually good. Is there a single one that you can bring 1-2 of and cause the game to suddenly shift that DOESNT belong to a marine dex? Necrons are the closest, but even they arent that great unless spammed. One or two necron fliers (either of them) doesnt phase me as either orks or tau one bit. 5+ is when i start going "Uho"

Also i avoid forgeworld. For two reasons, 1) cost lol....barracuda costs like $100 USD or something like that ouch and 2) while it may balance out some codexes, like orks that need the help badly, it kinda enables some ultimate cheese for others. Outside grot tanks or mega dredds, who even brings anything from FW that isnt insanely strong? XV107 comes to mind on the insanely strong factor lol

I understand that stance, however, GW seems to be in the process of rolling FW into being mainstream supplements for 40K. While price is still going to be an issue (unless they switch to plastic AND drop the price), there is still probably going to be an increase in FW units in the future.

Also, unless you are playing at a GW store, most people allow proxy/hand made models as long as you talk to them first.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

Durandal wrote:
Marines and 3+ are pretty common in the game, but the Tau already have a fair amount of AP3 and AP2 weaponry.

I've noticed that all the flyers post Chaos: Space marines have been toned down. GW tends to over react some in the codecies. So they saw all the triple dragons flying around and stepped it back for the follow on codexes. Same with the riptides, after they turned out so dominant, the Wraithknight got a much higher points cost then it otherwise would have.

Then what function do the Tau fliers serve if their only good at killing 4+sv's? A single razorshark has the same firepower a single missleside has, so that base is covered. The sunshark drops a large blast, but riptides and hammerheads do it better. Its not durable, if you need durable use the hammerhead, or riptide. If the flier was AV12 I could see myself using one outside of friendly games, but since it goes down just as fast as eldar fliers I see no purpose.

Like i said other than the barracuda what function do tau fliers serve?

There is overlap in all the books. The key is that the Tau flyers do not compete with Hammerheads or Broadside suits. They compete with Pathfinders, Vespid, Drones and Piranhas. In that group, they have some of the only blast weapons, and are the most survivable.
Admittedly, pathfinders and drone squads are a major source of marker lights, and Vespid have AP3, but the flyers are better AA in this slot, and can engage units hidden behind terrain more easily then the others.

i would much rather take 5 piranha with bursts for 200pts (which is 20 shots from the piranha and 20 more from drones, which are TL) than a single sunshark bomber for troop purposes. Little more expensive, but crazy more shots/two units/lot more wounds. Sunshark only has the Hard to Hit going for it, outside that its just as easy to pop.

Durandal wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

Durandal wrote:
Marines and 3+ are pretty common in the game, but the Tau already have a fair amount of AP3 and AP2 weaponry.

I've noticed that all the flyers post Chaos: Space marines have been toned down. GW tends to over react some in the codecies. So they saw all the triple dragons flying around and stepped it back for the follow on codexes. Same with the riptides, after they turned out so dominant, the Wraithknight got a much higher points cost then it otherwise would have.

Then what function do the Tau fliers serve if their only good at killing 4+sv's? A single razorshark has the same firepower a single missleside has, so that base is covered. The sunshark drops a large blast, but riptides and hammerheads do it better. Its not durable, if you need durable use the hammerhead, or riptide. If the flier was AV12 I could see myself using one outside of friendly games, but since it goes down just as fast as eldar fliers I see no purpose.

Like i said other than the barracuda what function do tau fliers serve?

There is overlap in all the books. The key is that the Tau flyers do not compete with Hammerheads or Broadside suits. They compete with Pathfinders, Vespid, Drones and Piranhas. In that group, they have some of the only blast weapons, and are the most survivable.
Admittedly, pathfinders and drone squads are a major source of marker lights, and Vespid have AP3, but the flyers are better AA in this slot, and can engage units hidden behind terrain more easily then the others.

You never answered the question. What function does it serve if all the functions it can do are covered? 1 marker light isn't enough, pathfinders and skyrays, cover that. Antiair is covered by broadsides, and its drones since they are passengers can only snap fire. It isn't durable like a hh so it a single quadgun will shoot it down, especially if your foe is smart enough to have the aegis in his deployment zone out of marker light range.

 Gitsmasher wrote:
What function does it serve if all the functions it can do are covered?

It fills the "flyer kit" release slot for Tau. Seriously, that's it. GW had to give Tau a flyer kit because that's what every new release has, but they didn't bother to put more than a bare minimum of effort into writing the rules for it. And so we get a unit with rules that match the guns on the model, but no clear role in the codex beyond giving rules to the new kit.

I'd have to agree with Peregrine there. its a flier, therefore its reason for being in the army is just. Despite armies having counters for the real threats in the air that cause the meh fliers to just fall over instantly lol.