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Hi Everyone,

I want some thoughts as to how a Leman Russ Heavy Army would work, and what some things I should watch out for as hard counters.

Specifically I am considering running 3 LRBTs, 3 Demolishers, and 3 Exterminators (the ones with the autocannons) all behind an aegis (with quad gun), all with camo netting. That should give each russ an AV 14, 3+ cover save.

I don't see air giving a hard counter (although the exceptions would be cron air, and vendetta spam), and any traditional foot list would get crunched me thinks. Obviously I would need to really be concerned with outflanking PA armies and bike armies.

Any thoughts on the viability of this type of list and the ways in which to reduce/mitigate those hard counters?

Well, the only problem is that AV14 doesn't really need a cover save compared to many other vehicles. What kills an AV14 vehicle is CC. Battle tanks need protection from assault, and you have already invested about 1700 points in heavy armour that can only target 3 different targets. One flying MC would be able to take out all these tanks in four turns total if it passes its grounding test. Likewise, bikers, outflankers and deep strikers would completely anihilate so many heavy tanks unable to run from them.

Corndog daemons is almost an auto-loss for this kind of build.

It really suffers from lack of flexibility and mobility.

One flying MC would be able to take out all these tanks in four turns total if it passes its grounding test. Likewise, bikers, outflankers and deep strikers would completely anihilate so many heavy tanks unable to run from them.

I don't see one flyer being able to withstand a quad gun and 3 Leman Russ Exterminators. If I'm wrong on that please enlighten me

Yeah, bikers are an issue, and so are outflankers (outflankers more so). Deep striking I am less worried about as I am going to make the assumption I can kill at least 1 unit per squadron, so they would need potentially more than 3 scary units per turn deep striking in per turn.

Corndog daemons is almost an auto-loss for this kind of build.

It really suffers from lack of flexibility and mobility.

How so? Yes, they are fast, and yes they have invul saves, but my experience with daemons has led me to believe that they still fold when you make them take saves, which templates do.

 Grey Knight Luke wrote:

One flying MC would be able to take out all these tanks in four turns total if it passes its grounding test. Likewise, bikers, outflankers and deep strikers would completely anihilate so many heavy tanks unable to run from them.

I don't see one flyer being able to withstand a quad gun and 3 Leman Russ Exterminators. If I'm wrong on that please enlighten me

Yeah, bikers are an issue, and so are outflankers (outflankers more so). Deep striking I am less worried about as I am going to make the assumption I can kill at least 1 unit per squadron, so they would need potentially more than 3 scary units per turn deep striking in per turn.

Corndog daemons is almost an auto-loss for this kind of build.

It really suffers from lack of flexibility and mobility.

How so? Yes, they are fast, and yes they have invul saves, but my experience with daemons has led me to believe that they still fold when you make them take saves, which templates do.

When properly dispersed you should be only able to hit 3 corndogs under a blast. That means roughly 6 dead corndogs from each squadron. You will only get one turn to shoot at them before they are attacking the extremely vulnerable rear armor of the russes.

The main problem you're going to face with daemons is A. The screamer star. That thing is a 2++ rerolling ones saves on jetbike. They also have the str 5 attack with armour bane. Your going to lose almost a squadron a turn to that 9 man unit alone starting turn 2 since it can move 36" first turn. B. Yes I can see 1 FMC not being a problem to resist the exterminators. Problem with that is you're normally dealing with roughly 3 FMC's on daemons. You can target with the tanks a maximum of 2 of them unless you put some auto cannon guard out along the line. Honestly if I could recommend any type of fortification to run instead of the aegis line look into the sky shield. It gives you a 4++ save not cover. IE outflank gets side armor, but you still get a save.


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On the bonus part barring 3ish armies( screamerstar, flying circus, raven / white scars) the list would be very scary to fight. You could easily stop a lot of different lists. Even super tide list wouldn't really be that life threatening to this one.

icefire78 wrote:
The main problem you're going to face with daemons is A. The screamer star. That thing is a 2++ rerolling ones saves on jetbike. They also have the str 5 attack with armour bane. Your going to lose almost a squadron a turn to that 9 man unit alone starting turn 2 since it can move 36" first turn. B. Yes I can see 1 FMC not being a problem to resist the exterminators. Problem with that is you're normally dealing with roughly 3 FMC's on daemons. You can target with the tanks a maximum of 2 of them unless you put some auto cannon guard out along the line. Honestly if I could recommend any type of fortification to run instead of the aegis line look into the sky shield. It gives you a 4++ save not cover. IE outflank gets side armor, but you still get a save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the bonus part barring 3ish armies( screamerstar, flying circus, raven / white scars) the list would be very scary to fight. You could easily stop a lot of different lists. Even super tide list wouldn't really be that life threatening to this one.

I actually really like the idea of having a skyshield! didn't even think of that.

So how do I mitigate the effects of those 3 armies?

Ablative bodies. Can't charge you're tanks if a squad of corpses decides to jump in the way. Small enough squads and they are guarenteed to wipe out your squad on the charge leaving them open to tank shooting next turn. close range meltas are going to hurt, can't help you on that one it's sorta the one hard counter to a tank line. To clarify you aren't normally assaulting the enemy, you are surrounding your tanks so that the enemy has to get through a wall of guardsmen to actually make it to the tank.


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Another option if you're worried about the flying monster's you could also look into a squad of Hydras? The Anti air one, can never remember guard tanks names very well.

Drop pod marines make mincemeat of this build by dropping behind the aegis with meltas Denying you cover, and your heaviest armor for a fraction of the cost

If you are dead-set on heavy armor....maybe look into an armored assault company or whatever they are called, that let you take mostly tanks?

Again why the skyshield is so nice.

Yes...yes...put them all on the Skyshield. It makes for such a nice target for the Mawloc...

And funniest part there is they get a 4++ save against the mawlocs attack. Then the mawloc would get to say hello to a lot of big guns as hugs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And funniest part there is they get a 4++ save against the mawlocs attack. Then the mawloc would get to say hello to a lot of big guns as hugs.

Drop pod marines make mincemeat of this build by dropping behind the aegis with meltas Denying you cover, and your heaviest armor for a fraction of the cost

yeah, no, not with blob squads in front of the aegis, deployment strategy can easily thwart this. drop pod melta is something that has been solved for a quite a long time. I think the correct term is castling. Tanks don't run away so they don't need to be off the edge of the map very far. On turn 2 (or 3) could they be past the aegis and melta my tanks? sure. But the scary part is the firepower that would be sustained until then, especially when you can "snipe" with ordnance weapons (as the closest model to the center of the blast takes the first wound, e.g. the melta).

Yes...yes...put them all on the Skyshield. It makes for such a nice target for the Mawloc...

If the one nid player i might run into in a tourney brings a Mawloc, then great, good for him.

Another option if you're worried about the flying monster's you could also look into a squad of Hydras? The Anti air one, can never remember guard tanks names very well.

The whole lynchpin is that the heavy guns are av14, not av12. Although a good thought, I want to keep the idea an army centered on LR.

 Grey Knight Luke wrote:
But the scary part is the firepower that would be sustained until then, especially when you can "snipe" with ordnance weapons (as the closest model to the center of the blast takes the first wound, e.g. the melta).

Casualties from the centre of the blast is for barrage weapons, not ordnance.

 Grey Knight Luke wrote:

Drop pod marines make mincemeat of this build by dropping behind the aegis with meltas Denying you cover, and your heaviest armor for a fraction of the cost

yeah, no, not with blob squads in front of the aegis, deployment strategy can easily thwart this. drop pod melta is something that has been solved for a quite a long time. I think the correct term is castling. Tanks don't run away so they don't need to be off the edge of the map very far. On turn 2 (or 3) could they be past the aegis and melta my tanks? sure. But the scary part is the firepower that would be sustained until then, especially when you can "snipe" with ordnance weapons (as the closest model to the center of the blast takes the first wound, e.g. the melta).

Barrage weapons are the snipers, like the thunderfire cannons i'd be running to kill those blob guard. Speaking of which.
Okay....with 1700 points of tanks...where exactly are you finding enough bubble wrap to protect much of anything? I drop the pods right on the aegis with 30 sternguard all with meltas, and 20 tactical marines with flamers, the troops disembark over it, and melta the snot outta anything with a blast template, and assault the rest next turn with krak grenades as my second wave comes in with flamers and torches the couple of guardsmen you found points for.

With that many tanks, pod marines in my opinion, should table the list above quickly. Its too heavy-support heavy

Am I the only person who sees the main problem with this list?

What the hell do you score with? All those tanks won't help you if you opponent has 1 more victory point on their side to yours.

If you're running this many tanks... Why not just play ABG???

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out the obvious problem this build would have against Tau. A handful of markerlights will negate your cover save, and then you take railguns to the face. It gets even worse if the Tau player has Longstrike, with his PE(IG).

Russes are great, and you should definitely take them... but don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Again skyshield negates tau stuff to. Skyshield gives you a 4++ invulnerable save against stuff not a cover save. Requirements being it's in closed mode and your model is on it. I love that freaking thing.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Am I the only person who sees the main problem with this list?

What the hell do you score with? All those tanks won't help you if you opponent has 1 more victory point on their side to yours.

This. You've spent all your points on tanks, so your opponent puts some objectives in their own deployment zone, goes to ground on them, and waits for the game to end.

If you went with 6 tanks, you'd be able to dump points into some platoon/veteran guys.

Try this on for size:

HQ:
-CCS w/Master of Ordinance [80 pts]

Troops:
-Platoon (PCS, IG squad, IG squad) [130 pts]
-Platoon (PCS, IG squad, IG squad) [130 pts]


Heavy Support:

-LRBT x2 [300 pts]
-LRBT x2 [300 pts]
-LR Demolisher x2 [330 pts]

Total: 1270 pts.

Slap on the ADL, and upgrade to taste.

Take Nine tanks, sure, but not in three squadrons... ABG my friend
And make sure you have points for scoring bodies. and meatshields. And you probably want some AA too.
Seriously, check out the ABG. AI1 Volume 2.

With a Sky Shield, how are you going to fit 9 tanks on top of it with the edges up to give you that Invuln save? And even with a bubble wrap, your troops are close to your table edge and are Ld 8. A couple of blast markers and your bubble wrap has left the building, leaving you with no scoring units and no bubble wrap. You also suffer from the problem of only 2 of your 3 units of Russes have range, and only one has a chance to hurt something else with decent armor. Hate to see how you deal with a Ork Battlewagon rush or a Marine Land Raider list... much less guys who say screw it and still shoot you at range and force you to make those saves. I mean, a 9 Russ list has it's strengths, but it also has it's weakness. There is no such thing as a perfect list and a list that is able to counter everything. Hey, you get Big Guns 1 out of 6 matches and your golden because now your tanks are scoring. But the other problem with the Sky Shield is... can you even drive off of it? Are you stuck up there or would it count as Dangerous Terrain to leave it since your falling 2-3 stories? Now you have to argue with your buddy because you decided to do something goofy like stack a ton of tanks up on a Sky Shield. God, I can see the nightmare it would be to figure out True Line of Sight from your weapons to your targets on top of a Sky Shield with the edges up, because you have to draw LoS from your weapon to the target, and the edges block LoS.

 BlkTom wrote:
With a Sky Shield, how are you going to fit 9 tanks on top of it with the edges up to give you that Invuln save? And even with a bubble wrap, your troops are close to your table edge and are Ld 8. A couple of blast markers and your bubble wrap has left the building, leaving you with no scoring units and no bubble wrap. You also suffer from the problem of only 2 of your 3 units of Russes have range, and only one has a chance to hurt something else with decent armor. Hate to see how you deal with a Ork Battlewagon rush or a Marine Land Raider list... much less guys who say screw it and still shoot you at range and force you to make those saves. I mean, a 9 Russ list has it's strengths, but it also has it's weakness. There is no such thing as a perfect list and a list that is able to counter everything. Hey, you get Big Guns 1 out of 6 matches and your golden because now your tanks are scoring. But the other problem with the Sky Shield is... can you even drive off of it? Are you stuck up there or would it count as Dangerous Terrain to leave it since your falling 2-3 stories? Now you have to argue with your buddy because you decided to do something goofy like stack a ton of tanks up on a Sky Shield. God, I can see the nightmare it would be to figure out True Line of Sight from your weapons to your targets on top of a Sky Shield with the edges up, because you have to draw LoS from your weapon to the target, and the edges block LoS.

I think you could get 6 on there with the ability to still pivot. Not 9, no way. They will still need to pivot to keep targets in arc. Squadron rules will help on shooting though as they can shoot through tanks in the same squadron.

 Grey Knight Luke wrote:
Any thoughts on the viability of this type of list and the ways in which to reduce/mitigate those hard counters?

Your biggest problem is that you will need troops to win the game. Fitting 9 LR tanks into an army will chew up ~1500 points, and thats before an ADL. (which you won't be able to fit all your models behind anyway)

If you really want to run a tank line, I suggest taking around 6 behind and ADL, stick a comm-relay on the side, and fly in 3 vendettas full of vets for your troops.

If you have the points to spare (and I don't think you will) allied DA will be a huge boon. Stick a librarian on a bike with a power field generator behind one LR, and you can give that entire squad a 4+ invuln save, and rerolling hits. That is a huge force multiplier you can add to 3 LR tanks.

I just played an IA1 Armored Battle Group at a 2K tournament so I think I can shed a bit of light on the ins and outs of massed LR tanks.

AV14 is tough, very very tough. I went up against massed Hammerheads and Riptids and had no problem shrugging off S9 and 10 ordinance with tank hunter etc. Also most of the time you'll only be glanced, not penned so your tanks are typically free to do as they please. Add the Heavy rule to them and it makes them pretty flexible, they can always move 6" and fire all of their main guns (albeit without being able to fire

Now that being said LR tanks have their limitations. Stock out of the IG codex they don't hit incredibly hard. None of the variant are so powerful that they can take down anything effectively in one turn, be it armor, infantry, what have you.

Personally I think they're a great distraction unit, they're tough and have a great threat foot print, but they can't win you games alone. If you're going 9 strong, 3 of them should be Executioners, 3 of them should be main BTs and 3 should be demolishers, which are the 3 strongest types, you could also try Vanquishers instead of the LRMBTs, but at BS3 I wouldn't put much stock in them.

Other stuff in the HS slot does a better job of making enemy units cry, like Colossus, Medusas and Gryphons, but you do need some AV14 saturation to keep these alive.

Troops wise, yes I agree with the people above, however, Ork Boyz are a better troop pound for pound, so if you want to be competitive just ally 2 x 30 Boyz in instead.

Thanks for all the tips guys. I am not going to use IA1, for the sole reason that no one that I play with uses forge world rules and I am not going to try and integrate that. Furthermore, most of the tournaments that I go to are codex only. I appreciate that there is a tank list out there if someday I want to play with forgeworld rules, however that is not something I mean to do at the moment.

Your biggest problem is that you will need troops to win the game. Fitting 9 LR tanks into an army will chew up ~1500 points, and thats before an ADL. (which you won't be able to fit all your models behind anyway)

If you really want to run a tank line, I suggest taking around 6 behind and ADL, stick a comm-relay on the side, and fly in 3 vendettas full of vets for your troops.

If you have the points to spare (and I don't think you will) allied DA will be a huge boon. Stick a librarian on a bike with a power field generator behind one LR, and you can give that entire squad a 4+ invuln save, and rerolling hits. That is a huge force multiplier you can add to 3 LR tanks.

yeah, troops are important, but as long as I can deny the enemy from being on the objective, the game is still winnable with a limited troop count.

As far as the flyers go, yeah yeah, i could do that, and it would be a better list, but this is talking about the viability of a 9 tank list.

I like the DA libby, that is a great option! since the LR are slow, he doesn't even need to be on a bike. He can just hide behind the armor.

Now that being said LR tanks have their limitations. Stock out of the IG codex they don't hit incredibly hard. None of the variant are so powerful that they can take down anything effectively in one turn, be it armor, infantry, what have you.

I disagree, 3 demolishers should be able to kill pretty much whatever...

Personally I think they're a great distraction unit, they're tough and have a great threat foot print, but they can't win you games alone. If you're going 9 strong, 3 of them should be Executioners, 3 of them should be main BTs and 3 should be demolishers, which are the 3 strongest types, you could also try Vanquishers instead of the LRMBTs, but at BS3 I wouldn't put much stock in them.

Not sure I put a lot of stock in this either. Exterminators are needed imo for this list as it is a cheap anti air. Unless the tank is sponsoned up, I would give the LRBT or Demolisher over the executioner, against most enemies it wont make a difference anyway.

Troops wise, yes I agree with the people above, however, Ork Boyz are a better troop pound for pound, so if you want to be competitive just ally 2 x 30 Boyz in instead.

Hadn't thought much about allied orks. Not a bad idea actually. Thanks!

 iGuy91 wrote:
Drop pod marines make mincemeat of this build by dropping behind the aegis with meltas Denying you cover, and your heaviest armor for a fraction of the cost

If you are dead-set on heavy armor....maybe look into an armored assault company or whatever they are called, that let you take mostly tanks?

Only if they're deployed such that there is room to drop a pod and deploy behind the tanks. There's no reason he has to do that.

Exterminators aren't very good for the points you are paying. They can sort of do anti-air, but not well.

There are much more cost effective ways to get autocannons into your army.

Use the LR chassis to bring things that the rest of the army cannot, like S10 AP2 pie plates, S7 AP2 with no gets hot, and S8 AP3 pie plates with 72" range.

I didn't take any dedicated AA at my last tournament and I was fine, flyers are not as heavily played anymore since Tau came out.

Really though, 9 Leman Russ tanks isn't a competitive build, I am just trying to give you options to make it at least playable.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Corndog daemons is almost an auto-loss for this kind of build.

It really suffers from lack of flexibility and mobility.

Yeah but then would mean you actually took corndogs, as far as I can tell that build is a bloody myth next to the 5 flying MC builds.

Not saying the dogs are bad, they just seem to be on the back burning in many lists.