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I've been looking in the IG threads and seen a lot of people bashing on the LRBT, I know they lost their behemoth rule but I couldn't find an exact reasoning as to why people say don't take them. Tried searching for it, maybe my search-fu sucks but I couldn't find a specific discussion on it just people saying "Don't take those" in a way that the discussion has already been hashed out.

So why not take them? I run them barebones, 1-2 of them with no sponsons and just barreling forward(slowly albeit) throwing pie plates around with the Demolisher.

I've thought of changing out the LRBT's in my list for a Punisher with pask and an Executioner but.. they're cheap and drop AP3 pie plates which is awesome against all the MEQ I face in my local area as well as the non MEQ.

On another note I do not use Manticores(mostly cause I don't have the models for it), I know everyone loves them but besides lacking the models my list is themed to be like a Panzer Grenadier(Blitzkrieg) list so I have no actual artillery.

Certain users bash the battle tank because they live in a fantasyland where everyone always has perfect 2" displacement while somehow still having a cover save, making it mathematically impossible to kill more than 1 or 2 models (apparently).

The more rational argument is that the ordnance tanks are less worth it now because you lose out on the Heavy rule (you must snap fire all other weapons when shooting Ordnance). To be honest this doesn't bother me, no one used sponsons in 5th edition and there were no complaints then. Hell, if anything their killing power increased due to lower cover saves, the loss of by-unit cover, and retaining full strength against everything hit under the blast (no more partial half strength hits).

I still love the Battle Tank and the Demolisher, they're still great tanks and gained more than they lost in the edition change imo.

The LRBT has a battle cannon not a demolisher.

The demolisher is fairly popular.

The LRBT is just underwhelming. Large blast weapons are horribly underwhelming against infantry that is highly displaced (full 2" dispersion). You get max 3 hits if your are reasonably lucky which against hordes does nothing and against anything in cover is reduced by the cover saves. The sponsons also cannot be used to any real effect and they are pretty cheap on a leman russ making them a great buy on a tank that can use them. In fact in many of the tanks they are about as useful as the main gun.

Compared to the punisher with sponsons(29 S5 shots, ~15 hits, ~12 wounds(T3) or ~10 wounds(T4), ~3 dead marines(Sv3+)). You can quickly see that the punisher packs a better punch against even the typical battle cannon target and a much better punch against hordes with an increased rear AV but a slightly higher price.

People will talk about the battle cannon being versatile but the problem is that it is the missile launcher of leman russ'. It is okay against everything but just not really good against anything. So even if you give it ideal conditions it will never perform a big game changing move. They are useful for some people but a practiced veteran with a demolisher or punisher will wipe the grin right off the LRBT player's face.

The LRBT (battle cannon version), doesn't do anything aside from blasting tightly packed marines out in the open better than an exterminator can. Not only does the exterminator does basically everything that a LRBT can, but it can also do several other things, like fire its main guns and hull weapons (which can now all fire at full BS on the move), and shoot at fliers, and are much better against monstrous creatures, etc. etc.

The demolisher is a little better, what with it being a serious threat to vehicles still thanks to Ap2, but that whole "going up to 1/3rd as slow" thing really stinks on a weapon that doesn't have the most gigantic range in the world. And it still suffers from those problems with sponsons, etc.

Futhermore, russes nowadays don't really have much of an advantage for being kept cheap. I mean, compare three demolishers to two lascannon/multimelta punishers. Three shots at S10 Ap2 that may catch a few targets, or 40 S5 shots and 6 ~S9 Ap2 shots (that sometimes have melta).

The latter is way better than the former. Given that you can now fire everything with non-ordnance russes, you're just throwing points away at carrier costs by taking naked battle tanks. Meanwhile, ordnance weapons no longer play nicely with hull weapons...

Hrm... I definitely see the validity of some these arguments.

I've had my LRBTs perform well but I think comparing it so the missle launcher is definitely spot on... after I thought about it, it does feel like that.

I hesitate to kit out my Leman Russ's like Ailaros said though mostly because of the point sink. I hear what you're saying on you're throwing away 150 points on a naked Russ but it allows me to be more spammy with my MechVets, 6 squads of Vets in Chimeras with 2 more vet squads in the 2 Vendettas (or 1 if I cut down to lower point games).

I suppose it can't hurt to try it though right? I partially just didn't know what people were replacing it with and for some reason I thought the Exterminator was Heavy 2 not Heavy 4 so... maybe I'll give it a go.

Well, if you want to free up points to take more mechvets, then don't bother with russes - take artillery instead.

Russes have a HUGE carrier cost to them for that AV14. A naked exterminator is basically just a well armored autocannon HWS that costs TWICE as much.

Now, throw on multimeltas and a lascannon and you get the killing power of an autocannon HWS AND the killing power of a lascannon HWS, and you're only paying 15 points more to give the whole package AV14. 15 points is not a lot to pay. 75 points is. This problem only exacerbates itself the more naked russes that you take.

Meanwhile, we're in 6th ed, and heavy, which means you'll actually get to USE all of those extra guns you got, thanks to not being endlessly stunlocked, or being forced to snap fire half your guns most of the time.

You do have to pay a lot for russes, but they are much, much more worth it when you spend the proper amount of points on them. Russes without proper hull gear is sort of like taking vet squads and then not giving them any special weapons...

Anyways, as mentioned, if you just want a dallop of large blast at a low price, get yourself some artillery instead. A basilisk costs 25 points less than a naked russ and does much more damage, thanks to barrage.

I would suggest a Medusa or 3 behind an ADL w/ camo netting

Putting it in that contrast with the heavy weapon teams is a really good example. I'll have to fish out my sponson bits as I never even made them lol.

Guess it's a question of Manticore or Basilisk then, I lean towards Manticore.

Colossus ignores cover saves and is AP 3. Cover is actually bigger in 6th than it was in 5th because it is easier to get it (even though it is up to a 5+ instead of a 4+ base). I don't care if you have AP 1 Str 10 blasts... if you don't have clean LoS on your target, they are getting a cover save, and one probably better than the armor they are wearing. You target can also 'Go to Ground' which means they can /always/ get a cover save, even if they /are/ in the open.

Also with things like the ADL, Barrage weapons are making a comeback, so things like Griffons and Mortars are becoming popular again.

And yeah, I have to totally agree with the 'Missile Launcher' comparison for a stock LRBT. But I disagree with loading a Exterminator/Punisher down with multi-melta sponsons and a LC as Ailaros is saying... it is because Orders make a HWS twin linked and Pask is the only way to improve a Leman Russ's ability to hit that is out of the base codex. Pask can only help one tank on top of that. Maybe when IG get a new Codex, we will see Vet Vehiclesas a upgrade, but I wouldn't bet on it. If your running Chimeras as your base unit, running naked Russes, not even running Russes, or running Russes that your opponent wants to kill out of fear (Plasma-cutioners, Demolishers, maybe even Eradicators) so he shoots them instead of your Chimeras are your choices. I think most lean toward option #2 and consider #3 over #1.

On the other hand, merely by taking a model with a large blast template you start affecting the way your opponent will be moving their models. As Creeping-deth indicates, they can limit hits by spreading all their models out, but that will limit their ability to get cover saves from the rest of your army's shooting and will make their units much more unweildy and potentially more exposed to assaults . Lose-lose for your opponent.

As with most choices in this game, try them out in your own army and see if they work for you.

 BlkTom wrote:

And yeah, I have to totally agree with the 'Missile Launcher' comparison for a stock LRBT. But I disagree with loading a Exterminator/Punisher down with multi-melta sponsons and a LC as Ailaros is saying... it is because Orders make a HWS twin linked and Pask is the only way to improve a Leman Russ's ability to hit that is out of the base codex. Pask can only help one tank on top of that. Maybe when IG get a new Codex, we will see Vet Vehiclesas a upgrade, but I wouldn't bet on it. If your running Chimeras as your base unit, running naked Russes, not even running Russes, or running Russes that your opponent wants to kill out of fear (Plasma-cutioners, Demolishers, maybe even Eradicators) so he shoots them instead of your Chimeras are your choices. I think most lean toward option #2 and consider #3 over #1.

Run Mechvets without Russ support at all? *rubs chin* That seems like a totally foreign idea to me, I guess they just spam manticores?

The reason I run Russ's is not -entirely- for optimization though, there's a theme to my army for a world war 2 style Blitzkrieg of armor. I used Vendettas to represent the Stukas instead of actual artillery haha. Obviously it's bent to fit into 40k with organization and stuff but I try to theme it.

As Ive noticed its pretty hit or miss depending on an IG list. Russes are now better to run more pricey varients with lascannons and sponsons which makes them more expensive but it makes them a bit better. But if you want cheap blasts its a lot better to go with artillery. Artillery helps footguard as your probably going gunline and sitting back so you will be able to bubble wrap your artillery.

Artillery also compliments mech guard because it adds more target saturation to the list artillery and chimeras are all AV 12.

I think artillery kinda helps air cav but can get risky. You grav shut your guys and you scatter you could kill a crap ton-o-vets lol

Sadly the LRBT isn't that great, only reason I use it is because I loved them before and now gw kinda killed them and I refuse to destroy my nicely painted tanks to remodel them into other versions and I also refuse to pay more money to get other variants as well.

Ive been trying out the Vanquisher with lascannon and MM sponsons and its not bad, hit 50% of the time which is kinda sad and if your opponent isn't running vehicles then its just kinda picking 2 or 3 models off a turn, sometimes just one.

I tried the exterminator/lascannon/MM combo and wasn't impressed.

executioner(plasma death tank) is one of my favorite if I feel like spending the crazy points for it lol. This is also about the same for the punisher.

The other variants like the eradicator, and the demolisher don't really catch my eye to much. The eradicators ap4 seems to lack for a large blast and the demolishers range is a problem. With a blast main gun it has the opportunity to scatter and not even hit its target or even do very little. Even bubble wrapping probably wont help as a good player will shoot up your infantry from a distance so that you wont be able to bubble wrap fully and once the tanks close enough they will just assault it. possibly only allowing one shot from the tank.

If I had the money for artillery or other russ variants I would go for it but Im stuck with the good old LRBT! lol

 BlkTom wrote:
Colossus ignores cover saves and is AP 3. Cover is actually bigger in 6th than it was in 5th because it is easier to get it (even though it is up to a 5+ instead of a 4+ base). I don't care if you have AP 1 Str 10 blasts... if you don't have clean LoS on your target, they are getting a cover save, and one probably better than the armor they are wearing. You target can also 'Go to Ground' which means they can /always/ get a cover save, even if they /are/ in the open.

Also with things like the ADL, Barrage weapons are making a comeback, so things like Griffons and Mortars are becoming popular again.

And yeah, I have to totally agree with the 'Missile Launcher' comparison for a stock LRBT. But I disagree with loading a Exterminator/Punisher down with multi-melta sponsons and a LC as Ailaros is saying... it is because Orders make a HWS twin linked and Pask is the only way to improve a Leman Russ's ability to hit that is out of the base codex. Pask can only help one tank on top of that. Maybe when IG get a new Codex, we will see Vet Vehiclesas a upgrade, but I wouldn't bet on it. If your running Chimeras as your base unit, running naked Russes, not even running Russes, or running Russes that your opponent wants to kill out of fear (Plasma-cutioners, Demolishers, maybe even Eradicators) so he shoots them instead of your Chimeras are your choices. I think most lean toward option #2 and consider #3 over #1.

Cover saves are most definitely not easier to get in 6th edition. In 5th edition, if you had half a unit in cover, the entire unit got a cover save. This is no longer the case, now only the models actually in cover get that cover save (and as you mentioned, it's usually a worse save than last edition). Also going to ground existed in 5th edition, so I'm not sure why you threw that in there. Also at leadership 7, your HWS are not going to be passing many orders so it's not a favourable comparison to the Exterminator.

Not trying to call you out or anything, just clearing up some points.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

Cover saves are most definitely not easier to get in 6th edition.

A 50pt 4+ cover purchase disagrees with you.

Also at leadership 7, your HWS are not going to be passing many orders so it's not a favourable comparison to the Exterminator.

Eh, 50%.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

Cover saves are most definitely not easier to get in 6th edition.

A 50pt 4+ cover purchase disagrees with you.

Also at leadership 7, your HWS are not going to be passing many orders so it's not a favourable comparison to the Exterminator.

Eh, 50%.

That's ONE section of the board for that defense line save. 4+ cover was pretty much everywhere in 5th, and a 50% chance to pass your orders isn't nearly reliable enough to seriously use in a comparison with another unit like the Exterminator.

One area that you can choose, and quite easily generate a 2+ save.

Although I agree with you on the orders, I was just pointing out that it's 50%, your post seemed to imply that they'd fail more than they'd pass.

Atheos wrote:The reason I run Russ's is not -entirely- for optimization though, there's a theme to my army for a world war 2 style Blitzkrieg of armor.

6" movement per turn does not a blitzkreig make. What you want is hellhounds and devil dogs...

 Ailaros wrote:

Atheos wrote:The reason I run Russ's is not -entirely- for optimization though, there's a theme to my army for a world war 2 style Blitzkrieg of armor.

6" movement per turn does not a blitzkreig make. What you want is hellhounds and devil dogs...

A month ago I might have disagreed but after seeing your battle reports you may just be right. It certainly seems more fun to play.

The artillery/mechvet/vendetta (or as ailros pointed out hellhound types) combo "feels" much more "blitzkrieg" than the leman russ as "lightning" anything just does not apply to the leman russ. Though honestly blitzkrieg just doesn't really work for such a small engagement as what we play in a 40K game as mechanized leman russ are no faster than ground troops.

The one thing leman russ' do in a 3+ vendetta list is keep you on the board until your vendetta's show up. Though you are not running that type of list rather you have a "traditional" mechvet list with a vendetta or two put in so you probably don't need the help staying on the board 2-3 turns.

 Flinty wrote:
On the other hand, merely by taking a model with a large blast template you start affecting the way your opponent will be moving their models. As Creeping-deth indicates, they can limit hits by spreading all their models out, but that will limit their ability to get cover saves from the rest of your army's shooting and will make their units much more unweildy and potentially more exposed to assaults . Lose-lose for your opponent.

As with most choices in this game, try them out in your own army and see if they work for you.

Wiser words were never spoken. Everyone's meta is different. I'd try it out for a few games and see how they work for you. You never can tell. I personally hate playing against them (of any variety really).

If you're taking Leman Russ Battle tanks, you're not taking them solely for their gun. It's a good weapon, despite what the haters say, but it's not the main reason you take them.

Look at every piece of fluff you've ever seen about the Imperial Guard when it comes to tanks. Codex, Black Library, whatever.

Now I want you to tell me how many times you see the words "only a single tank was needed" pop up. Take your time.

You take Leman Russes because they're stupid cheap. You can field an obscene amount of them. You field a friggin wall of AV 14, and then dare your opponent to try to kill them. Use them as bullet magnets. Run them off to the side and bait your opponent to go after them instead of killing your guardsmen on the objective like he should be doing. Use them as glorified walls to protect easy kill points. Park them on top of objective to deny your enemy. Park them at a checkpoint to inconvenience them. When their gun gets disabled, ram them into things because SCREW YOU MY TANK COSTS 150PTS. But most importantly, you pound them turn after turn with pieplate after pieplate. One Leman Russ Battle Cannon will do very little to affect a game. But 6, firing every turn, hammering you from literally anywhere on the board they can see you, is another thing entirely. Unfortunately, losing the ability to fire a lascannon and the battlecannon at the same time really hurt them. Back when Lumbering Behemoth was still around the humble LRBT with a lascannon was the ultimate swiss army in our codex at the start of 6th. I'd field 6 of them and those monsters could kill anything that wasn't flying with terrifying ease. Nowadays I usually field one or two "specialist" tanks like an Executioner or Exterminator, and then fill in the rest of my slots with regular battle tanks.

Remember kids, LRBT's are like cheap beer. One is crap, 3 is ok, and every one you get after that is better than the last.

I love my LRBT. It's the workhorse of my army. The Demolisher is awesome but it can be out of targets at times. My LRBT can put a blast template anywhere.

That said, it doesn't do anything amazing. Cover saves take away from it's killing power and it can scatter horribly but it'll always do something. Take more for more pleasure.

I'd say experiment and make your own conclusions, I came to this site hoping to get some decent advice but most of it is just the usual 'get a helldrake and a guard blob', although for you that's probably more like 'get valks'. Like you've seen here as well, people swore black and blue that pie-plates never catch more than 2 models and all things considered are largely useless.

On the weekend I destroyed 9 Deathwing + Belial with a Vindicator supported by a single psyker - to hold them in their deepstrike deployment pattern. Sure I won't get that result every time, but in that one game I learned it's usually better to experiment for yourself than have your opinions/ideas rubbished by some net-list junkie.

Also a missed pieplate sometimes hits something, a missed AC/HB shot does nothing.

With vehicles only needing 25% LoS blockage to get a cover save, it is easier to get cover saves for them. Focused Fire has the problem of if you fire on the guys in the open and you do more wounds than guys exposed, you lose the excess (you fire on 3 guys, do 5 wounds and he fails 4, you kill only the 3 guys). As for HWSs, there are ways to get around Ld 7 problems, such as Kell and or a Lord Commissar. It is the same with a lot of things in the codex, you can do it cheap and pray it pays off, or you can pay the points and do it right. I personally like the Lord because he mans my ADL gun, as he is one of the few guys in the codex with BS 5.

Atheos, as mentioned, the big problem is that your LRBTs are slow and they can be ignored to shoot the Chimeras. I suppose it depends on what you consider 'supporting' and what your looking to do with them. If you just want them out there for theme and to toss some pie-plates as they snap fire the other gun(s), you have what your looking for. If you want your opponent to go, 'I have to take out those LRBTs first', you will have to spend some points... either with gear or with more tanks. And then at the end of the day, you have to ask if this could have been another Vet Squad or a Platoon mounted in Chimeras and your Vendettas. Because that is your real killing power, your Vets.

As a side note, half-tracks with mortars make great Griffons and I think a Hummel makes a great Basilisk. I have also kinda kicked around the idea of using a Ferdinand as a Basilisk with an enclosed canopy. Some good stuff out there to model or even kit-bash up to maybe save some cash.

I've found my Russes got killed almost straight away - they become an immediate target but then mine are plain-janes and so far have proved highly ineffective.

I have bad luck with the dice so I have massive scatter with them that misses their target.

On the other hand I have found my Exterminator has proved quite deadly. A pair of these has managed to annihilate an entire squad of Necron Warriors in one turn with combined fire from the main guns and the hull gun.

it's been said earlier that we can't use lumbering behemoth. Why? I don't have my codex on me, so I don't know the rule exactly, but didn't it mean we could fire ordinance weapons as a normal weapon? I usually have a squadron of LRBT's because I generally get lucky with my scatter dice . I think the AP 3 does it for most players - it's basically a large blast krak missile - who wouldn't take that for 150 points (or 130, I forgot the value)

General Annoyance wrote:
it's been said earlier that we can't use lumbering behemoth. Why? I don't have my codex on me, so I don't know the rule exactly, but didn't it mean we could fire ordinance weapons as a normal weapon? I usually have a squadron of LRBT's because I generally get lucky with my scatter dice . I think the AP 3 does it for most players - it's basically a large blast krak missile - who wouldn't take that for 150 points (or 130, I forgot the value)

What it use to mean was that we could fire a Ordnance weapon and a single weapon (plus defensive weapons)and move 6". Now all we can do is move 6" and snap fire all other weapons. If we have a non-ordnance weapon, we can move 6" and fire all weapons at full BS because of the Heavy Vehicle rule (pg 83 BRB). But this rule also means we can /only/ move 6", where before it was 6" +d6" to Cruise. Ordnance rule is on pg 71, BRB.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, if you want to free up points to take more mechvets, then don't bother with russes - take artillery instead.

Russes have a HUGE carrier cost to them for that AV14. A naked exterminator is basically just a well armored autocannon HWS that costs TWICE as much.

Now, throw on multimeltas and a lascannon and you get the killing power of an autocannon HWS AND the killing power of a lascannon HWS, and you're only paying 15 points more to give the whole package AV14. 15 points is not a lot to pay. 75 points is. This problem only exacerbates itself the more naked russes that you take.

Meanwhile, we're in 6th ed, and heavy, which means you'll actually get to USE all of those extra guns you got, thanks to not being endlessly stunlocked, or being forced to snap fire half your guns most of the time.

You do have to pay a lot for russes, but they are much, much more worth it when you spend the proper amount of points on them. Russes without proper hull gear is sort of like taking vet squads and then not giving them any special weapons...

Anyways, as mentioned, if you just want a dallop of large blast at a low price, get yourself some artillery instead. A basilisk costs 25 points less than a naked russ and does much more damage, thanks to barrage.

Is that punisher really worth 225p? For that price I could have a Colossus and a Hydra.

General Annoyance wrote:
it's been said earlier that we can't use lumbering behemoth. Why? I don't have my codex on me, so I don't know the rule exactly, but didn't it mean we could fire ordinance weapons as a normal weapon? I usually have a squadron of LRBT's because I generally get lucky with my scatter dice . I think the AP 3 does it for most players - it's basically a large blast krak missile - who wouldn't take that for 150 points (or 130, I forgot the value)

The Guard FAQ replaced the Lumbering Behemoth rule with the Heavy special rule from the main rulebook. They are similar, but Heavy gives no benefits to Ordnance weapons, unlike the old rule.

Also @MrMoustaffa I don't think you can ram with Russ' anymore. I thought the ram rules say you must move cruising speed at least. IIRC (No book on me of course.)

I go for the Blitzkrieg tank list with my little troopas huddling behind the tanks as we slowly move up. I've always had good luck with the regular LRMBT. Like it has been mentioned many times in many forums it depends on your meta, terrain, opponent.

Me for instance, we have lots of terrain (so people feel safe not spredding out due to cover), most people are casual (so won't spend too much time trying to get every model 2" apart), And my meta sees quite a lot of troops on the table. (So the LRMBT is good where i'm at).

 portugus wrote:
Also @MrMoustaffa I don't think you can ram with Russ' anymore. I thought the ram rules say you must move cruising speed at least. IIRC (No book on me of course.)

I go for the Blitzkrieg tank list with my little troopas huddling behind the tanks as we slowly move up. I've always had good luck with the regular LRMBT. Like it has been mentioned many times in many forums it depends on your meta, terrain, opponent.

Me for instance, we have lots of terrain (so people feel safe not spredding out due to cover), most people are casual (so won't spend too much time trying to get every model 2" apart), And my meta sees quite a lot of troops on the table. (So the LRMBT is good where i'm at).

Thanks for the heads up, I need to look into that.