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Say all the Imperium unified on a single front and every tomb world was fully awake and unified.

Who's got the advantage?

Do you guys have any sources?

Based on the fall of orpheus, considering what 1 dynasty could do to a prime, well-defended imperial sector, I have to say crushing victory for the necrons. First recorded destruction of a Tomb Ship and it took a battle barge kamikaze to do it. I am led to believe the imperium is greatly outmatched as far as naval warfare goes. On the ground, things might be a little more even but the Necrons still have the edge with their crazy technology.

The necrons should get bludgeoned horribly.

I'd say the Necrons. Their codex says they have many millions of Tomb Worlds, so that's the Imperium's million outnumbered handily. Then there's the ease of sabotage, misdirection and intelligence gathering that they can do with mind shackles. The codex also says that if the Tomb Worlds are unified then "the great powers of the galaxy will surely fall, and the Necrons shall reign supreme for eternity."

I thought I heard someone say the Necrons were rotting though and have lost a lot of technology too.

I'm no 'Cron and haven't read the Codex, nor am I too steeped in their lore, but perhaps someone could shed some more light on that possible plot hook?

And for the record, pretty much anyone except Eldar and DEldar are going to be the Imperium now. They're on their way out the door, same as has happened to the Eldar. Next "power" to "conquer" the "galaxy" (while the Chaos Gods laugh and wring their hands together menacingly)? Tau. +__+

Has no one noticed this trend yet? What is the only constant in the WH40K universe? What has ALWAYS been there, no matter shape or form?

It's Chaos. Chaos truly rules both the Warp and the Material, however demi-powers like the Necrons and Tyranids threaten that hold on reality, something Chaos is more than happy to do since they're playing the long game none others, not even the 'Crons, can match. +__+

This is the Truth. This is why I have my Red Wing Armada. I know it's a little off topic, but I felt it relevant since the question of the Imperium's superiority has come up once again. They're not that great. Hell, their leader is a Cannibal Corpse, which had ok music but was not to govern the universe. lol

If humanity could focus on only the necrons and destroy tombs worlds before they awoke then maybe, but that is a huge maybe. So my money is on necrons wining.
Also I doubt that the tau could rule the galaxy to much going against them and they are only still around because of plot armor. I like the tau they are fun army to play, but they have three really big problems that they just can't beat in the long run.

I don't see how the Imperium could win. The Necron navy is vastly superior and you can't win without naval superiority. Also, Necron tech is highly more advanced. In one of the Sisters or Battle noveles, Hammer and Anvil I think, a tech priest connects to Necron tech and is utterly shocked by how far more advanced the Crons are compared to them.

All warfare comes down to logistics and the Crons don't need the supplies that humans do and they can get their "three B's" Beans Bullets and Blankets where they need to be when they need to be there much easier than the Imp.

Um, Necrons, easily.

Their technology, combined with the greatest generals in the galaxy, combined with the cunning of chronomancers, the genius of crypteks and the infinite power of the celestial orrery, there's no way the Imperium could win.

Crypteks are think-tanks. Even the dumbest Cryptek could program viruses for Imperial networks or defense protocols for planets that would keep the best of the AdMech busy for years trying to figure out what's going on. Chronomancers can travel back in time and alter it to influence victories, the celestial orrery could be used to devastating ends, wiping out armadas before they even mobilize in the direction of the Necrons. I don't even need to touch on the power of their navy or transportation capabilities, others here already have.

Ultimately, in the fluff, the endgame scenario would be Necrons vs. Tyranids. Who would win that conflict is really subject to major theorycrafting, since they both have powerful trump cards in their arsenal. The Necrons and their staggering technology/orrery, the Tyranids have a potentially shocking number still out in the galactic void that perhaps even the Necrons won't be able to handle. We will never know. :(

"When the end comes it will not be at the hand of any mortal being of this or any other realm: death will come at the hands of the ancients, those who determined our fate aeons before we stood erect upon the holy ground of Terra and gazed up into the starry night."
--Inquisitor Hoth

Well, as soon as the Void Dragon got his say in..

Necrons.
Don't forget that a mere handful of Necron stealth ships were able to penetrate the Sol system's defenses, and even managed to LAND on Mars itself before being destroyed.

Necrons, easily, because as written they so out-class the Imperium it isn't even funny. In fact, I think it a flaw in GW and FW writing as the Necrons are portrayed as being so essentially invincible it is a wonder they haven't destroyed the Imperium already.

By evidence I give FW's TheFall of Orpeus:

In the Fall of Orpheus FW book, the reinforced Imperial sector fleet was shown to comprise 7 battleships (including 1 Retribution and 1 Apocalypse class), "more than 60" cruisers and capital ships, "several hundred" escort class vessels, 4 Space Marine battle barges, and 8 Space Marine strike cruisers.

Facing them, the Necrons are described as fielding less than a quarter of the Imperial ship numbers. The breakdown was 2 Tombships, 20 harvest ships, and the rest escort class vessels, with some later confirmed to be Dirge class raiders.

Though the breakdown of Imperial losses was never completely given, the narrative showed that Imperial losses as at least 2 battleships, 1 battlecruiser, 1 heavy cruiser, 2 battle barges, 3 strike cruisers. In the end, less than 10% of the Imperial fleet was still fit for combat. Little detail was shown of Necron losses with the only definite details being 1 destroyed harvest ship and damage to 1 Tombship. The other Tombship was shown to remain fully operational at the end.

In terms of size, FW has definitely taken to upping everything to ever higher limits. The BFG supplement Warp Storm gives the Battle of Callavell in the Age of Apostacy as one of the largest "set-piece" battles in Imperial history, In that, the Imperial force fielded 8 battleships, 5 grand cruisers, 6 battlecruisers, 5 heavy cruisers, 9 cruisers, and 6 light cruisers for a total of 37 capital ships. The renegade forces in that battle fielded 6 battleships, 4 grand cruisers, 6 battlecruisers, 9 heavy cruisers, 11 cruisers, and 8 light cruisers for a total of 46 capital ships.

So in other words, a single Necron dynasty awakened and within 1 year met and virtually wiped out one of the largest Imperial fleets in the history of the Imperium with modest almost minimal losses. This single dynasty goes on to take out 60 worlds in 100 days, essentially gutting the sector, and it fights off the Imperial counterattack sufficiently that 7 years later after the initial Necron attack, the Imperium dissolves the Orpheus sector.

IG. That much plot armor combined would be far too much even for necrons.

The Necrons invented death. They killed the creators of this galaxy. If it wasn't for the Necrons, fear wouldn't exist. But it does.

Hands down the Necrons. Plot armor can only last so long.

Fully awakened Crons without having to worry about waking up Tomb Worlds, Dynasty rivalries or anything?

Well there goes the neighborhood. The 'Crons have access to the super ships like the Cairn-Class that would be absurdly hard for them to destroy, along with their super weapons like the Celestial Orrerry. IIRC, aren't there also more world-engines and the Necrons have access to time travel?

Then there's also the C'tan shards, and is there any information on what the Dragon is- C'tan Shard or full C'tan?

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
The Necrons invented death. They killed the creators of this galaxy. If it wasn't for the Necrons, fear wouldn't exist. But it does.

Hands down the Necrons. Plot armor can only last so long.

I don't think you have read enough SM books

 StarTrotter wrote:

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
The Necrons invented death. They killed the creators of this galaxy. If it wasn't for the Necrons, fear wouldn't exist. But it does.

Hands down the Necrons. Plot armor can only last so long.

I don't think you have read enough SM books

This is a versus fight. Petty things like plotshields are waved away and actual advantages are discussed. The Necrons hold nearly all possible advantages and have the high ground.

The Necrons outnumber the Imperium several times over. Their troops are pound for pound far superior to the Imperium's. Their fleet to an even greater extent. Their technology is the most advanced in the galaxy. They have some of the most capable generals in the galaxy, in the case of Imotekh, possibly the greatest.

The Necrons win.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
The Necrons invented death. They killed the creators of this galaxy. If it wasn't for the Necrons, fear wouldn't exist. But it does.

Hands down the Necrons. Plot armor can only last so long.

I don't think you have read enough SM books

This is a versus fight. Petty things like plotshields are waved away and actual advantages are discussed. The Necrons hold nearly all possible advantages and have the high ground.

To be blunt I'm jesting because well.... it's not a fair match. Necrons are simply so preposterously mighty. Greater numbers, greater tech, well greater everything really. Both are decaying but the necrons will take longer to decay. It's kinda like asking imperium vs orks if all the orks unite.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
The Necrons invented death. They killed the creators of this galaxy. If it wasn't for the Necrons, fear wouldn't exist. But it does.

Hands down the Necrons. Plot armor can only last so long.

I don't think you have read enough SM books

This is a versus fight. Petty things like plotshields are waved away and actual advantages are discussed. The Necrons hold nearly all possible advantages and have the high ground.

To be blunt I'm jesting because well.... it's not a fair match. Necrons are simply so preposterously mighty. Greater numbers, greater tech, well greater everything really. Both are decaying but the necrons will take longer to decay. It's kinda like asking imperium vs orks if all the orks unite.

Necrons are only decaying thanks to them being poorly organized and still waking up.

This wouldn't even be a problem if they were all awoken and fully organized and thus able to restart their civilization and fully reform it. Once the IOM's been wiped out, they could focus on mopping everyone else up and return to fleshy bodies to fully reclaim their old civilization while remaining top dog.

The numbers of Necrons catching the Flayer Virus is rapidly increasing so I'd hardly call them an endgame race.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The numbers of Necrons catching the Flayer Virus is rapidly increasing so I'd hardly call them an endgame race.

This! This is the "grim dark" I thought was imposed on the Necrons after all! That there was some other thing that was pressing their potential End Game "Immortality" for time. This makes sense to me now, and why they are even in the running right now as opposed to just straight dominating.

And Necrons should totally roll with this! This is giving your army some good depth. I hate writers who want their army to be the ultimate best of all time. Screw that! Give me a hero with a major malfunction any day of the week! I know that guy can win and will win. Captain Perfect is a douche. Excuse my francais.

Yet the leader of the "Flayed Ones" was the guy who slaughtered all those planets in 100 days, plus gave the Minotaurs a butt kicking.

Hrm.

By asking this question you are taking away the imperiums main advantage - that they are already 'united' (in a sense). The orks aren't, chaos isn't, and the necrons aren't either. The only reason the imperium still stands is the fact that ot is united whilst its many enemies are not. It is their main strength. To make it a fair comparison you would have to give the imperium another advantage (since you are giving the necrons an advantage by waking them all up and uniting them whilst the imperium gains nothing as they already are united). Who would win: the imperium if they recovered ALL their tech from the dark age of technology or the necrons if united? Id still say 'crons.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The numbers of Necrons catching the Flayer Virus is rapidly increasing so I'd hardly call them an endgame race.

This really depends on the Dynasty. Some Dynastys are affected very little by the Flayer Virus, while others like the Maynarkh, are heavily affected. So this is more an issue dynasty to Dynasty, than every single of them falling to he Flayer Virus.

This! This is the "grim dark" I thought was imposed on the Necrons after all! That there was some other thing that was pressing their potential End Game "Immortality" for time. This makes sense to me now, and why they are even in the running right now as opposed to just straight dominating.

And Necrons should totally roll with this! This is giving your army some good depth. I hate writers who want their army to be the ultimate best of all time. Screw that! Give me a hero with a major malfunction any day of the week! I know that guy can win and will win. Captain Perfect is a douche. Excuse my francais.

The Main reason the Necrons are nt dominating right now, has nothing to do with the Flayer virus. We saw how effective the Maynarkh Dynasty was, and it is by far the most heavily infected Dynasty at the moment. The Reason the Necrons aren't totally dominating right now, is simply the fact that I'd say less than a 1% have actually woken up. There are Millions of Tombworlds, and only a handful have woken up. We've seen how effective they are when they actually muster their forces.

1. How it should be: Necrons undoubtly crush all Imperium forces and drive humanity to extinction.

2. What will actually happen: Plot armor kicks in and Humanity somehow beats a race that has:

-Technology that puts Eldar to shame
-Numbers greater than Humanity
-Galaxies most brilliant strategists capable of calculating nearly every possible outcome of a battle

Broly wrote:

1. How it should be: Necrons undoubtly crush all Imperium forces and drive humanity to extinction.

2. What will actually happen: Plot armor kicks in and Humanity somehow beats a race that has:

-Technology that puts Eldar to shame
-Numbers greater than Humanity
-Galaxies most brilliant strategists capable of calculating nearly every possible outcome of a battle

Their technology does not put the Eldar to shame. That's just wishlisting. The warp weapons of the Eldar were primarily generated to deal with the Necrons. I'd say they are on equal footing technology-wise. The problem arises from the Eldar not being able to sustain themselves as a growing race.

Their numbers are unmatched, completely agree.

Their strategists can see almost all possiblities, but they cannot predict which one would come true based on a series of events that can be influenced at the lowest possible level of effort required...enter...Eldar Farseers.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Broly wrote:

1. How it should be: Necrons undoubtly crush all Imperium forces and drive humanity to extinction.

2. What will actually happen: Plot armor kicks in and Humanity somehow beats a race that has:

-Technology that puts Eldar to shame
-Numbers greater than Humanity
-Galaxies most brilliant strategists capable of calculating nearly every possible outcome of a battle

Their technology does not put the Eldar to shame. That's just wishlisting. The warp weapons of the Eldar were primarily generated to deal with the Necrons. I'd say they are on equal footing technology-wise. The problem arises from the Eldar not being able to sustain themselves as a growing race.

Their numbers are unmatched, completely agree.

Their strategists can see almost all possiblities, but they cannot predict which one would come true based on a series of events that can be influenced at the lowest possible level of effort required...enter...Eldar Farseers.

Ok, Eldar technology is not equal with Necrons. This isn't really even up for debate, it's just a fact.

Eldar Farseers have been shown to be fooled and outwitted by their counterparts, using Astromancy.

 Sasori wrote:

Eldar Farseers have been shown to be fooled and outwitted by their counterparts, using Astromancy.

Though I believe it's implied that Farseers are usually better than seeing the future (one of the stories in the Necron Codex were Starbane goes into battle with Necrons and Orikan can only tangle the threads of fate or something). That said, I think Astromancy is the single worst piece of background out of that Codex. The only thing that makes literally no sense whatsoever to me.

As for numbers, while the Necrons have a greater number of Tomb Worlds they don't necessarily have greater numbers of ground troops (or fleet for that matter). Don't Guardsmen often out number them even if they're sorely outmatched? I still suspect they'd win though.

I think you're confusing "invented death" (which is false; they did not "invent" death) with "invented the fear of death" (which is true).

But they weren't able to effect Orks with the latter.

Poly Ranger wrote:
By asking this question you are taking away the imperiums main advantage - that they are already 'united' (in a sense). The orks aren't, chaos isn't, and the necrons aren't either. The only reason the imperium still stands is the fact that ot is united whilst its many enemies are not. It is their main strength. To make it a fair comparison you would have to give the imperium another advantage (since you are giving the necrons an advantage by waking them all up and uniting them whilst the imperium gains nothing as they already are united). Who would win: the imperium if they recovered ALL their tech from the dark age of technology or the necrons if united? Id still say 'crons.

I agree with this, you're giving the necrons an advantage they do NOT have in the 40k universe, and putting them against the imperium based on what they do have. It is like saying who would win if the emperor of mankind made a rapid recovery, and invented some new tech that tracked necron tomb worlds, then blew them all up?