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Eldar are without a doubt a shooting army, but the codex does have dedicated CC units.
Are any of them viable?

Wraithblades
A strong unit that can deal pain and withstand it. But compared to the rest of Eldar they are slow.
Either have Swords and be vunerable to Plasma and Lascannons, or take Axes and have only one attack for every guy.
Doesn't seem that promising after all.

Striking Scorpions
Propably the best of bunch with Inflintration, 3+ armor, S +1 weapons and Exarchs super high Initiative PF.
Do these guys have any flaws? Well the usual T3 of course, and AP6 isn't exactly a miraclemaker compared to other options.

Howling Banshees
Considered by some "the worst unit in the 'Dex". Are they? AP3 is good, S3 is bad but they are quick and can power the enemy I on a charge (or was it WS...?). The lack of survability is most likely the biggest problem.

Harlequins
These guys remind me of an old Simpsons sketch.
"So these guys have 5+ Inv"
"That's good!"
"But they have no armor"
"That's bad"
"But they can have Rending"
"That's good!"
"They cost 22 points a model then"
"That's bad"
"But hey, they'll always have Furious Charge..."
"That's good!"
"...at S3"
"..."

And so on. A lot of flaws, a lot of advantages, these guys are a glass cannon.
Shadowseer makes them survive longer, but is costly and dies the second he gets the Perils.

Most of the problems could be fixed with an assault vehicle, which we have not. Now you must either footslog or survive a turn of shooting/assault to do something.

So dear Dakkanauts, is Eldar close combat dead?

Well, this edition favors shooty armies. CC is often the last resort but it can be devastating. The best Eldar cc unit is the Seer Council, in particular, on jetbikes and led by the DE Baron.

Wraithknights are good, and so are Seer Councils, as Wuestenfux mentions.

Scorpions are good as Infiltrators. They are more of hybrid unit then a pure CC unit.

Shees are good at either counter assault or as an entrenched objective buster if you are running them in a Wave Serpent heavy army. They don't eat bullets well, but they perfom admirably once they get to assault.

Haven't played with the reast of the Wraith's that much.

If u're playing eldar for fun just take any of them if you want. Eldar got only wk-s for mellee and they're good at it simply cause of their overwhelmingly great stats and speed. I'd pay more than it costs to get it in my ork's army so that i can not spend 500+ points on bikernobz just not to autoloose to mc spam.

In descending order of effectiveness:

Seer Councils

Wraithknights

Trolltarch with Shard

Karandras

Avatar

your argument is invalid

I don't think it is dead, just very difficult to get right compared to unloading a load of shuriken in some one's face.

I personally think that a unit of shining spears with exarch carrying the star lance and possibly a jetbike autarch has potential.

They are fast, hard hitting, with jink saves from the bikes and have hit and run. Plus they can outflank.

I wouldn't bank on them against anything better than 3+ saves though.

Thanks for input!
Totally forgot the Seer Coucil! Mobility, firepower, a punch in CC and Force multipliers. So actually very effective, propably the most effective in the codex. Especially if armed with Singing Spears.

From one type of spears to another, Shining Spears, the forgotten heroes! Amazing power against MEQ makes them valuable, but pretty expensive, ey?

But these two seem the ultimate answers, answering the biggest questions: speed and survability!

And Knights can of course handle themselves in combat, but aren't they pretty easily tarpitted by hordes with only 4 attacks?

@ Asmodai, I was referring to units instead of HQ's, but your point is good. Phoenix lords can help the lack of effectiveness I guess.

Your post was talking about Eldar close combat, which is certainly very much alive. Eldar dedicated assault units have never been good and probably never will be.

Take the ghost warrior formation.
Add Jain Zar to a squad of wraithblades with axes
Put squad of banshees behind wraithguard.
Use spirit seer to give banshees conceal or use iyanden rules for furious charge+battle fleet. Put a farseer somewhere near them and try for invis.

Now charge with your blades. They get re-rolls on the charge for hatred from the formation, they get to -5 from the init and ws of the opposing squad cos've Jain Zar. So you can now only be hit on a 5+ (normally unless its someone with a massive ws) and you'll all be hitting simultaneously.
The Banshees (with conceal and the 4+ cover for the formation get a 2+ cover save and might actually survive to get across the board. Then they can charge too.
If you use the Iyanden rules, the wraithblade axes are now at st8.

Edit:Add wraithseer for FNP on the blades at the front.

Afterthought...
For a laugh, take Space Wolf Allies. Logan gives all friendly units within 18" +1 attack. Nice on Wraithblades.

Then - play weird cc eldar and watch your opponant decry cheese as its a build they'll never expect. Or get laughed at and tabled.

All units look bad on paper like that when your comparing them to the entire enemy army. You need to look for a combination of effects to really get the most out of units. A single threat CC unit will not do much, unless you have multiple threats bearing down on the enemy and have to make him pick 1 of many. T6 Wraithblades are very nice, when you have a Wraithknight drawing all the plasma/las spam at it.

U also can go max out mellee guardians or take ork allies with 40 grots in a single squad if u're hoping to win by SURPRISE

I find the Shining Spears work exceptionally well with Wraithknights. Wk charges first, eats up overwatch(usually the only thing that can hurt him are heavy weapons and they can't overwatch), then Shining Spears join the fray and mop everything up. Or if a WK gets tarpitted, you charge in with your Spears and free him. Stuff like that.

They go excellent together. But you need to have other threats on the board as well, long range shooting like War walkers and Wave Serpents, to mess with your opponent's target priority.

Eldar CC works very well, in a balanced build. All CC army not so much, but that's true for every CC build, except the few.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
In descending order of effectiveness:

Seer Councils

Wraithknights

Trolltarch with Shard

Karandras

Avatar

your argument is invalid

You're missing Asurman!...and Fuegan, and Jain Zarr, just don't take them with their aspects...well, Asurman could do fine with his.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Araenion wrote:
I find the Shining Spears work exceptionally well with Wraithknights. Wk charges first, eats up overwatch(usually the only thing that can hurt him are heavy weapons and they can't overwatch), then Shining Spears join the fray and mop everything up. Or if a WK gets tarpitted, you charge in with your Spears and free him. Stuff like that.

They go excellent together. But you need to have other threats on the board as well, long range shooting like War walkers and Wave Serpents, to mess with your opponent's target priority.

Eldar CC works very well, in a balanced build. All CC army not so much, but that's true for every CC build, except the few.

I often play my tyranids without a single gun. Just to mix it up. It wins fairly often.

Fuegan with a Spiritseer can be a deadly combo. Lose a wound, renew it back, you get the +1 str and A and you still have full wounds.

Not hopeless but, a pure Eldar army has a tougher time basing their tactics around close combats the way Khorne Dogs or Orks can.

Wraithknight:
+: Crazy T and W
+: Innate S10
+: JUMP!
-: 4 attacks will take a long time to chew through hordes
-: Not scoring

Jetseer + Jetlocks:
+: Psychic buffs for survivability, can boost anywhere
+: Guide can cause their few attacks to be more reliable
+: Witchblades wound you on 2s Uh! So there!
+: If you have 2 Warlocks that each get the "Protect / Jinx"
so you go from 3+ to 2+ and typical Marines go from 3+ to 4+ in the SAME turn!
-: HUGE points sink
-: Not scoring unless you get that BRB warlord trait

Scorpions:
+: A lot of attacks. How many? Exactly a lot...
+: Relatively cheap for 3+, Infiltrate and, Stealth
+: Throw in a Shard of Anaris Farseer for Fearless
-: Average attacks at AP6
-: Slow and, can't assault out of vehicles (this is an army wide Eldar problem)
-: Not scoring

Asurmen:
+: Asurmen

Banshees:
-: S3 means they need Doom to reliably wound their preferred targets
-: Fleet nerf hurts them more than others
-: Limited to "Power Swords" and cannot have other weapons
-: Banshee mask nerf no longer 100% guarantees first attack on your charge
-: No grenades
-: No stealth, I save or anything combined with 4+ makes them AssCannon fodder
-: Points cost not significantly reduced to represent their subpar capacities
-: Insufficient number of attacks to mitigate their weak power and defense
-: Last, and least, of their faults; not scoring
+: ...they got some donk?... but for that I could just look at girls on the street...

Dire Avengers
+: Cheap(er)
+: Scoring
+: Exarch gives 5++ on top of 4+ which isn't great but, it's ok for the price
+: Counterattack
-: Weak, no AP
-: Not really a minus but, really DA's should be used for run shooting

I have not used Wraithblades, Sword or Axe but, obvious (based upon using Wraithguard):
+: Scoring if you have a Spiritseer
+: T6
-: Slow and, the no-vehicular assault thing

I have not used Storm Guardians.

I have not used Harlequins but, that Simpson's bit Soome mentioned seems to sum it up perfectly.

I have not used Phoenix Lords that aren't Asurmen.

Storm Guardians need the Warlock or better...but they can really really shine in CC...just dont touch the power swords.

Storm guardians are pathetic wastes of points. I really dont care how many S3 WS4 AP- attacks you are throwing at your targets, it will never be enough. Especially not at ld8, lack of transport, 5+ armor, and 9ppm. 3/10

Wraithblades are garbage. 1A with axes? 2A with swords? for how many points? Sure, they survive, but wont see melee until turn 3-4 and wont do much in that melee except kill 2-3 models. 2/10

Banshees are... well i think everyone knows by now. 1/10

Scorps are bad. Mandiblasters are S3 and they only have 2A. Ever see marines wanting to punch other marines? Well thats essentially what these guys do. One saving grace is the claw, but thats 30 points on a 25 point guy. By the time you get them up to the point they are viable melee units, they are too expensive to do the job. 4/10

Harlequins were almost there, but the psychic power killed the unit. I could use them again if they had the 'old night fighting' type rule, but when you are casting on a 1W LD9 psyker that is the only thing keeping the unit alive, its too much of chance. 6/10

Jet councils are pretty poor in my book. Sure you have a lot of powers, but casting on ld8 and periling on 45+ point models is pretty painful. In melee the are also pretty pathetic with just being WS4 AP-. You can deal with 3+ MCs, but that whole council will take ages to go through a riptide, even if you can drain the armor down. 6/10

Wraithknight is a great melee unit because he can deal with just about any threat in the game, has enough attacks to deal with targets, S10 HoW, is tough enough to pretty much ignore half the units in the game in melee (and they cant break away if they have krak grenades, silly aint it?) and is a big target for the enemy to keep fire off the rest of your army. It also has a choice of shooting a target down or assaulting it, which few MCs do. The Wraithknight can shoot what it cant out-melee and melee what it cant out-shoot. I've been saying its a fantastic model since it came out and now people are starting to understand why 9/10.

PL: All of them are effective. Some slightly more than others, but in general they can effectively deal with multiple targets. I like the ones with FNP or Inv saves, but karandras and Zar are both beatsticks. If only Baharroth had a sun rifle and/or +1 str he would be my favorite, but he is still my choice for PL.

A lot of eldar melee was close to being viable, but either expense, lack of melee transport, or simple bad rules kept them from being effective.

The problem is not in the units themselves. They are amazing CC units. The problem is the delivery system/ability to get into CC. This is where the Eldar units fail. Wraiths are too slow, and the rest are too fragile to soak a turn of shooting.

If Eldar would have an Assault vehicle or some rule that gave us the ability to do anything other than footslog to CC, it would be a different story all together.

The only reliable unit to get into CC is the Seerstar, which is unfortunate.

 zephoid wrote:
Storm guardians are pathetic wastes of points. I really dont care how many S3 WS4 AP- attacks you are throwing at your targets, it will never be enough. Especially not at ld8, lack of transport, 5+ armor, and 9ppm. 3/10

Storm Guardians should reliably kill anything they're suited to kill (GEQ) a unit with two flamers should be able to wipe 10 fire warriors off the board with shooting and then charging...and it only gets much worse for 5+ save enemies.

Your meta might be able to go by the old standard of comparing against MEQ (I honestly don't know) but right now you have to hold a unit up to the meta...which for me is other eldar, tau, guard with some orks, daemons, deldar, and tyranids.

Storm Guardians are well worth their points against such units.

How exactly are you shooting and charging? What vehicle are you using to transport them in that is an assault vehicle again? Or do you really think that 5+ save will protect you vs any of the armies you listed. What happens when you pop up, flame (and probably not do a whole lot) one unit, then are sitting in the open (or even in cover, it matters little). You get shot or assault off the board easily. Also, if you are in flamer range, they are in flamer range. Storm Guardians are one of the more expensive sources of flamers in the game. Guard get 10 vets w 3 flamers for 85 or a 5 man squad with 3 flamers for 55 (who also has orders).

If looking for a flamer unit, wraithguard with D-Scythes are infinitely better. Not only are they multiple times as durable, but they will actually kill a unit when they come out of a vehicle. They are even more cost effective per flamer, which is pretty sad (5 flamers at 210 vs 2 at 100).

 zephoid wrote:
How exactly are you shooting and charging? What vehicle are you using to transport them in that is an assault vehicle again? Or do you really think that 5+ save will protect you vs any of the armies you listed.

Well you sound angry...



Turn 2/3 charges aren't difficult by dropping off the guardians on turn 1/2.

As Eldar I commonly wait for the turn 4/5 charge to reduce the risk of any retaliation.

For the record, Wraithknight is probably one of the if not the strongest MC outside GUC or Swarmy in melee. S10 AP2 attacks at high init without any melee purchases, and hes untouchable by small arms. He doesnt even need to Smash so all his S10 attacks are what he normally gets. With a 12" movement, he can catch a lot of things.

Which is exactly what this thing is. Its not an eldar Riptide, its actually the opposite. Riptides want nothing to do with melee, but they can do it better than the rest of the tau at least. Wraithknights may have long range but their guns are sub par except in key situations, so they shoot move shoot charge and force the opponent to deal with them. Which isnt easy if they arent packing a ton of high strength shots, even plasma spam is meh against him (wounds on 5s, or 6s if tau)

 RancidHate wrote:

Asurmen:
+: Asurmen

'Nuff said.

But I think we can all agree that having him hanging around alone isn't the best of plans since he's your warlord.
He needs a squad around him. Dire Avengers? Too shooty. Banshees? Too squishy. Shining Spears/Jetseer Council? Too fast.
I think the best choice is Scorpions. Say what you want, they have the balance between speed and survability. They can handle hordes well and if they end up against MEQ/TEQ, you will have the Exarch to challenge any nasty enemy vet/equivalent and Asurmen will deal pain to the other dudes.
Am I way off the track...?

And Wraithblades with Axes and Spiritseer isn't useless combo. Re-rolling ones to hit in CC will help the problem of few attacks, almost all powers in Runes of Battle are useful to them (almost...) and with their high survability they can hold/slow down enemy CC units (anything without PF).
Now that I think of it, all the powers (except primaris and maybe Destructor/Renewer) in RoB are awesome to Blades! WS5 I5 blades with 2+ armor will wreck any face and even that PF will be nearly useless if it has -1 S.

Along with Jetbikes, those two seem the brightest hopes for Eldar CC.

I'll argue for Striking Scorpions as a decent cc unit. Here's why:

1. They solve the issue of not having an assault vehicle by being able to Infiltrate. They're already set up for a T2/bottom of T1 charge.

2. 3 S4 attacks on the charge, striking first (against the things you should be assaulting with them), 1 AUTO-HIT S3 attack. People complaint about the S3, but there's something to be said for attacks that automatically hit. There's 4 attacks on the charge for a unit that can survive the remnants of what hits back with 3+ armor.

3. Relatively inexpensive. They don't cost much more than standard tactical marines

4. They don't take up valuable FOC spots. Let's face it, Eldar troops, Fast, and Heavy options are pretty damn good, and will take up the bulk of your points

5. Their basic pistol has freakin Rending (yes I know it's Bladestorm, but it's close enough). Soften up a target before it gets jacked by 40 cc attacks.

There's my two cents. Use them. They're cool. Oh, and their models are SWEEEEET.

Using striking scorpions with a spiritseer, and if that seer grabs protect... 2+ armor, anyone? Barring arguments about infiltration and the like, I considered considered taking scorpions a spiritseer for that very reason. Put fuegan in it here and hope for renew.

Fragile wrote:
All units look bad on paper like that when your comparing them to the entire enemy army. You need to look for a combination of effects to really get the most out of units. A single threat CC unit will not do much, unless you have multiple threats bearing down on the enemy and have to make him pick 1 of many. T6 Wraithblades are very nice, when you have a Wraithknight drawing all the plasma/las spam at it.

This guy gets it.

The problem is not in the units themselves. They are amazing CC units. The problem is the delivery system/ability to get into CC. This is where the Eldar units fail. Wraiths are too slow, and the rest are too fragile to soak a turn of shooting.

So does this guy.


They don't have an obvious delivery system. That only makes most units better at counter attack tactics then attacking.

However, I really don't think people have worked how to use a Wave Serpent to the Eldar units benefit. It's incredibly fast, and virtually immune to penetrating hits. You can use it to get onto a flank, drop your guys (girls) out of LOS/in cover turn 2, and starting threatening assault turn 3.

A couple of things with units like this.

Take your time. Be patient. It takes a couple of turns to get this unit into position. Plan it out carefully, don't go slinging them head long and then QQ when they get blown off the board.

Work what they are doing in with what the rest of your army is doing. Most opponents wont want to go near where they end up, and will want to run away from there as well. Take advantage of this.

My best advice to anyone learning this game, particularly on how to wield CC units, is a unit doesn't have to be rolling dice to effect a game and get you a victory.

Also, howling banshees are one of the more units in game. Fleet, combined with their +3" run move, and they're moving quite fast, fast enough to bounce from cover to cover. They will always be striking first in combat, and although only the Exarch will be dealing significant damage by herself, Power weapons on models that hit first are quite good.

 ductvader wrote:

Storm Guardians are well worth their points against such units.

I'm sorry, what?

No, no, they are not. And I say that as someone who regularly fields a squad of 10 storm guardians in social games. They never do ANYTHING worthwhile in CC, except for that one time they killed two deathwing terminators. You are correct that they will kill a bunch of guardsmen, kroot, fire warriors, cultists, in CC. But then again, doesn't EVERYTHING?

Scorpions are fun, but I wouldn't call them competitive. I take a squad of 6 sometimes, and outflank them. Send them after something squishy as a distraction.

Wraithblades can hit hard, but a smart player wont let them cause any damage. Ghostsword blades have done a number on bikers for me in the past, who are usually an issue for me.

Wraithlords/Knights are great to hold the line. They serve as gun platforms, that can charge in to finish whatever gets too close, or even just tie up things that are threatening my scoring units.

I've found Asurmen to be good. He's handy in CC, but serves a purpose outside of it. Playing a footdar army, you want to be shooting. But having a couple of CC options is handy. Don't plan on being in assault, but be prepared for it.

Other unit of note is the Lol-tarch. Bike, Mantle, random CC upgrades. Send him into something and hope there's no powerfists left at the end.

It's not that Eldar CC is bad, it's just that 6th is squarely a dakka dakka edition. When the Eldar codex was updated for 6th, it's like GW wrote it for the close combat of 5th edition, and the shooting of 6th. I don't know where the disconnect came from, but it's set Eldar CC behind the power curve.

However, it feels like the Eldar are a very much combined arms army now- where they take some buff units (Farseers), a unit or two of close combat, and a unit or two of shooting, all backed up by cheap troops.

The Eldar just can't swing the pendulum of close combat or shooting far enough to make up for the lack of the other one. I.E.; Tau are fantastic in shooting, dropping pie plates, ignoring cover, cheap, but very effective shooting troops, but horrible in close combat. The thing is, you'll never catch them in close combat. The other extreme are some of the Deamon or Chaos Space Marine lists that focus on close combat, withering the fire of shooting to get into close combat and wreck face. Eldar just can't do that. They have to be combined arms.

Another great strength of the Eldar- mobility. They have the capability to move clear across the board and focus their entire army in one area better then any army in 40K. Leveraging that ability is a very difficult skill to master, but can make a good Eldar player a very formidable opponent indeed.

They never do ANYTHING worthwhile in CC, except for that one time they killed two deathwing terminators. You are correct that they will kill a bunch of guardsmen, kroot, fire warriors, cultists, in CC. But then again, doesn't EVERYTHING?

I know what you are saying, but being good against troops (which is effectively what we are saying here) is really ALL a CC unit NEEDs to be. Can you kill the opponents troops? Yes. Sweet. That's it. You've met the bare requirements.

The nominal goal for many of these CC units is getting to the opponents troops/objectives and either a.) chopping face or b.) screaming "oogabooga" long enough that you messed up your opponents plan for victory. You don't need to be world beaters to do that, although you do need to find a good way to keep them around (terrain, vehicles, LOS, maneuverability, etc, etc, etc). IE, all the things Eldar have in spades, generally speaking.

Another great strength of the Eldar- mobility. They have the capability to move clear across the board and focus their entire army in one area better then any army in 40K. Leveraging that ability is a very difficult skill to master, but can make a good Eldar player a very formidable opponent indeed.

Well said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McNinja wrote:
Also, howling banshees are one of the more units in game. Fleet, combined with their +3" run move, and they're moving quite fast, fast enough to bounce from cover to cover. They will always be striking first in combat, and although only the Exarch will be dealing significant damage by herself, Power weapons on models that hit first are quite good.

Good post McNinja. Of course, people will now counter with the OMG no nades! rebuttal. They won't bother explaining why a good CC unit is sitting there with its thumb up its arse in or behind terrain, or why you have decided that THAT unit, and ONLY THAT unit, are what you are going to send your Shees against, or that the lack of Nades only effect the first round of CC, or any of those other things. They will just scream OMG NADES and the other lemmings will sadly nod along in agreement with out properly putting this apparent weakness into the proper context.