Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 McNinja wrote:
Also, howling banshees are one of the more units in game. Fleet, combined with their +3" run move, and they're moving quite fast, fast enough to bounce from cover to cover. They will always be striking first in combat, and although only the Exarch will be dealing significant damage by herself, Power weapons on models that hit first are quite good.

The Power Swords are the saving grace of them, but I hadn't concidered the quick running. Combined with fleet, they migh go for T2/3 assault. Providing they survive, of course...

I once had Wraithbaldes with this same ability. I got Falcon's Swiftness WL trait and quicken/restrain for one of my powers. Managed to move 15" the first turn. The expression on my opponent's face? Priceless.

I find the lack of assault vehicles means Eldar struggle to create an aggressive assault force but I'm rather liking the Wraithblades as a counter charge unit for my Guardians.

The short range of footslogging guardians combined with their relative weakness in melee and solid firepower means many units, like tac marines, would much rather pistol them and then try and break them in melee to run them down rather than trade firepower.

A squad of Wraithblades can deter that kind of behaviour as anything without a good invuln or a 2+ save is going to take a beating from them and even if they then continue wailing on Guardians the Fearless Wraiths will stop your units getting run down.

Eldar have always been about the overlap of units, it really depends what else is in your army and how that effects your opponent.

I feel that close combat in sixth edition is often more about area denial (especially around objectives) and counter-attacking rather than simply rushing forward to engage the enemy. From that perspective, eldar have a lot of good options.

Although Wraithknights and Wraithblades seem to be getting recommended a lot, I haven't seen anyone mention Wraithlords so far. They are still one of the better close combat monsters, if you can persuade the enemy to come to you.

Also, you really need to factor in the Exarchs when looking at close combat aspects. The Banshee exarch is pretty good, but a Scorpion guy with claw and sword is amazing.

soomemafia wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Also, howling banshees are one of the more units in game. Fleet, combined with their +3" run move, and they're moving quite fast, fast enough to bounce from cover to cover. They will always be striking first in combat, and although only the Exarch will be dealing significant damage by herself, Power weapons on models that hit first are quite good.

The Power Swords are the saving grace of them, but I hadn't concidered the quick running. Combined with fleet, they migh go for T2/3 assault. Providing they survive, of course...

I once had Wraithbaldes with this same ability. I got Falcon's Swiftness WL trait and quicken/restrain for one of my powers. Managed to move 15" the first turn. The expression on my opponent's face? Priceless.

Of course, they may not last too long out in the open, but smaller units behind LOS blocking cover can survive a while. And yeah, the runes of battle doesn't have any useless powers. Even renewer can used on a nearby MC or IC.

Perfect Organism wrote:I feel that close combat in sixth edition is often more about area denial (especially around objectives) and counter-attacking rather than simply rushing forward to engage the enemy. From that perspective, eldar have a lot of good options.

Although Wraithknights and Wraithblades seem to be getting recommended a lot, I haven't seen anyone mention Wraithlords so far. They are still one of the better close combat monsters, if you can persuade the enemy to come to you.

Also, you really need to factor in the Exarchs when looking at close combat aspects. The Banshee exarch is pretty good, but a Scorpion guy with claw and sword is amazing.

Yeah, exarchs sort of fall into the same place that SM sargeants do. Sure, they can get kind of expensive, but they can pack one hell of a punch. Both the Striking Scorpion exarch and Banshee exarch are very good, though I do prefer banshees to save points. Another poster said something that I rather like; "shoot the assaulters, assault the shooters." Use those AP2 weapons and bladestorm shots against the likes of terminators, and use the banshees, scorpions, and blades against weaker shooting units.

As for wraithlords, they're nearly on the same level as the Avatar. The Avatar is slightly faster and has more attacks but the wraithlord has a much higher T.

I still hold to the idea that a properly supported large(6-9 men)Shining Spear unit can be a huge asset to your army. And it's not just because of their CC ability, their shooting is also amazing, especially against MCs. They'll regularly do 3-4 wounds to a Riptide just with their shuriken catapults, provided no FNP. And they'll murder any vehicle as well with shooting and assault. But for CC they need Prescience, which means a dedicated Farseer and they'll also benefit greatly from an Autarch in the squad.

I've recently discovered how good they can be and I'm really enjoying playing them. Even on a competitive level, they work quite well.

I would like to see whether an Eldar close combat army could be effective with the new Ghost Warriors Battleslate formation. Every Eldar unit within 6" of a unit from the formation gains Hatred, so how can you maximize that buff?

The Wraithknight is the key, as he is the only model with the mobility to buff the other common Eldar close combat units. Keep him within 6" of a jetbike seer council, and they're pretty nasty. Move him up next to an infiltrating unit of scorpions led by Karandras, and they're pretty nasty.

If you use the Ghost Warriors formation in an Iyanden list, you can give the wraith units Battle Focus with the Spiritseer. This should allow them to keep up with units like Banshees and Harlequins.

I regularly run eldar cc and have a blast. Don't always win but is ALWAYS FUN

Avatar w/disarm + fast shot
Spirit seer w/ shard + gem (ties up opposing cc HQ very well)
Wraithblades w/axes x5. 2 groups (ties up expensive units)
Scorps x8 + exarch w/claw + crush. 2 groups
Banshees x9 + exarch w/executioner + grace (surprisingly useful)
Wraithlords w/flamers + glaive x 3
Avengers x8 + exarch (plain- just there for 3+)
Serpent w/scatter, cannon, holo
Aegis w/lascannon

The WL, lascannon, and avatar try to take out armor and walkers.

Problems: enemy air, mech heavy lists

Pros:
1.allows you to focus on appropriate targets. I can't touch air assets so I ignore them and focus on things I can kill.
2.Usually gets close enough to blast weapons fast enough so enemy hesitates to fire danger close.
3.Threatens lots of enemy simultaneously- most eldar will hit cc no later than turn 3, even the Blades, and at the same time.
4. Failed morale and sweeping advances are very common w/ high initiative

The keys to this list are:
1.play AGGRESSIVELY- engaged units don't get shot.
2.Choose appropriate targets. Have your banshees run around the termites and hit the squishy support troops in the rear a turn later. Tie up terminators and fearless stuff with Blades instead.
3.Focus on one part of the board with overwhelming force. Don't be afraid to commit multiple units to the same combat. Kill them with failed morales and sweeps.
4.Use challenges wisely- exarchs, WL, etc allow you to choose who takes a challenge. Keep your really heavy hitters (scorp exarch, avatar) killing lots of regular foes to force morale and reduce hits back while "durable" models (spirit seer, banshee exarch w/grace, or WL suck up challenges.

The problem with assault is that it has to be innately more powerful than shooting due to the ability for shooting to kite or focus fire much more effectively. When you throw everything into assault, i can array my army across the board. You may get into assault turn 3 with one section, but you will never get close to the other unless you also spread out, which gives me the ability to pick you apart based on what i want to retain rather than what you want to kill. Even with a TAC i have been able to beat melee based armies across 4th-6th editions. Even when i was using 4th eldar vs nids in 6th i was still demolishing them. You only need 1-2 melee 'units' (often ICs can be as good as units) to deal with a whole melee army. 10 harlequins+ yriel backed with a shooty army nearly guaranteed a win vs CC armies since that unit can out-assault any assault unit that happens to close fast while the rest of the army shoots the slower parts.

Eldar no longer even need whole units for cc. grabbing a unit of 5 wraithguard with D-scythes and throwing a PL, autarch, or even a kitted farseer is enough to be able to deal with individual melee units. Shooting has always been king in 4th and 5th, 6th just made it even worse. Eldar 6th codex gave is poor melee units (when stacked up against other codex's melee units) on top of the general poor assault rules.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

However, I really don't think people have worked how to use a Wave Serpent to the Eldar units benefit. It's incredibly fast, and virtually immune to penetrating hits. You can use it to get onto a flank, drop your guys (girls) out of LOS/in cover turn 2, and starting threatening assault turn 3.

Are you guys really playing games that aren't already completely decided by the end of turn 2?

I haven't seen a game in ages where any Turn 3 assault was either "defiant moral cause for the loser" or "just winning more".

 DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

However, I really don't think people have worked how to use a Wave Serpent to the Eldar units benefit. It's incredibly fast, and virtually immune to penetrating hits. You can use it to get onto a flank, drop your guys (girls) out of LOS/in cover turn 2, and starting threatening assault turn 3.

Are you guys really playing games that aren't already completely decided by the end of turn 2?

I haven't seen a game in ages where any Turn 3 assault was either "defiant moral cause for the loser" or "just winning more".

I haven't had a game like the above since 5th edition.

I'm in the camp that says the Eldar solution to close combat is to avoid it or emply their DE brethern. You have a number of units that can do something in close combat, but generally you have better shooty options for cheaper.

Wraith knights and lords can hurt things. They are probably your best CC defense.

Str 3 Toughness 3 kills their melee. The only things you can reliably hurt are gun focused xenos. Yes, you can kill firewarriors. But they are 9 points a model, you are 18 for banshees. When you do the math, each swing of a banshee sword has the same chance of killing a marine as a bare bones tactical marine has of killing a banshee. Not good odds.

Jetbike warlocks aren't much better. You spend 50 points on 2 AP- attacks. Even wounding on twos, you arent putting out the death levels needed. Plus, LD8 isn't helping. You can add special characters, but now you are sinking more points into a game where you are behind the power curve.

Now, you can start mining the new supplements, expansions, formations, and forgeworld. You start very quickly becoming the guy who shows up with 4 heldrakes or 5 riptides. You aren't fun to play against in regular mission play. I would recommend if you want to mess with eldar melee, do it in Apoc or other large battle, super units, crazy bonus rule formats. Base codex is not your friend here.

Dessorag wrote:
I'm in the camp that says the Eldar solution to close combat is to avoid it or emply their DE brethern. You have a number of units that can do something in close combat, but generally you have better shooty options for cheaper.

Wraith knights and lords can hurt things. They are probably your best CC defense.

Str 3 Toughness 3 kills their melee. The only things you can reliably hurt are gun focused xenos. Yes, you can kill firewarriors. But they are 9 points a model, you are 18 for banshees. When you do the math, each swing of a banshee sword has the same chance of killing a marine as a bare bones tactical marine has of killing a banshee. Not good odds.

Jetbike warlocks aren't much better. You spend 50 points on 2 AP- attacks. Even wounding on twos, you arent putting out the death levels needed. Plus, LD8 isn't helping. You can add special characters, but now you are sinking more points into a game where you are behind the power curve.

Now, you can start mining the new supplements, expansions, formations, and forgeworld. You start very quickly becoming the guy who shows up with 4 heldrakes or 5 riptides. You aren't fun to play against in regular mission play. I would recommend if you want to mess with eldar melee, do it in Apoc or other large battle, super units, crazy bonus rule formats. Base codex is not your friend here.

I almost agree. Wraithknights can bring the pain, since they're big and fast. Wraithlords are better suited to long-range attacks mainly because they are so slow, but if they bring the fight to you the WL is a decent fighter.

Banshees shouldn't be attacking marines unless they have an exarch with an executioner or the Banshee PL. With banshees, you're paying for speed, moving around 12" a turn and turning any high-initiative models into very low-I models. You wound marines on 5s, and even though you ignore their armor save, wounding on 5s isn't great. You attack marines with the Avatar or a unit of Striking Scorpions, things with a lot of attacks and high enough strength so you're wounding on 4s at worst.

Asurman is a total badass.\

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/07/6th-edition-eldar-hq-asurman.html

To clarify, I agree with you McNinja. I use a wraithlord as a melee deterent. Her job is to shoot things but also to stand in front of my squishier units as a melee blocking force. She is way to slow to seek it out as a primary task. Wraithlords are character too, so you can challenge that power fist sarg, and step on his face.

 ductvader wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

However, I really don't think people have worked how to use a Wave Serpent to the Eldar units benefit. It's incredibly fast, and virtually immune to penetrating hits. You can use it to get onto a flank, drop your guys (girls) out of LOS/in cover turn 2, and starting threatening assault turn 3.

Are you guys really playing games that aren't already completely decided by the end of turn 2?

I haven't seen a game in ages where any Turn 3 assault was either "defiant moral cause for the loser" or "just winning more".

I haven't had a game like the above since 5th edition.

Yeah, me neither. You really need to talk to your locals about using more terrain if that is the case, DE. Or something. The lists I take couldn't possibly be tabled in 2 turns (of course I primarily play with incredibly resilient Necrons).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Str 3 Toughness 3 kills their melee. The only things you can reliably hurt are gun focused xenos. Yes, you can kill firewarriors. But they are 9 points a model, you are 18 for banshees. When you do the math, each swing of a banshee sword has the same chance of killing a marine as a bare bones tactical marine has of killing a banshee. Not good odds.

Banshees shouldn't be attacking marines unless they have an exarch with an executioner or the Banshee PL. With banshees, you're paying for speed, moving around 12" a turn and turning any high-initiative models into very low-I models. You wound marines on 5s, and even though you ignore their armor save, wounding on 5s isn't great. You attack marines with the Avatar or a unit of Striking Scorpions, things with a lot of attacks and high enough strength so you're wounding on 4s at worst.

Putting these quotes together because ya'll are essentially addressing the same thing. First of all, Dessorag, Shees aren't 18 points/model. Double check your codex.

Second of all, S3 AP3 is strait up better then S4 AP - against the vast majority of troops in the game. I really don't know why ya'll are thinking it isn't. You have a 33% wound rate against anything T4. Where as, the S4 AP - has a 16.67% wound rate against 3+ saves (MEq) and a 25% wound rate against 4+ saves (Necron Warriors). Against T3 4+ Saves, the Shees have a 50% wound rate while the S4 AP - has a 33% wound rate. Even against GEq (5+ T3) the Shees weapon profile comes out ahead.

And, yes, while the Tactical Marine technically has the same chance of wounding the Shee, he has half the attacks and I4. I mean, technical Tactical Marines have the same chance of wounding Assault Marines as Assault Marines have of wound Tactical Marines, on a per swing bases. No one would confuse that with Tactical Marines being just as good in assault as Assault Marines, though.

In Summary, if I could assault 10 Tacs with 10 Shees I would take that match up every single time. I don't care if they are in cover or not. The Shees win that matchup handily. That's, quite literally, the target they were designed to attack. It's their most efficient matchup.

Shees have their problems, don't get me wrong. They die out in the open rather quickly. But lets give the girls their due. They are quite efficient at slicing down the vast majority of infantry targets, particularly MEq.

I've a friendly tournament this weekend, and I plan to use a Sun WraithKnight escorted by Axe Wraithblades w/Spiritseer. Main idea is to play WK aggressively shooting and assaulting, with the WB are providing backup and hence avoid wasting too many turns tarpited (of course, I'd try to flee blobs) with more than 5 minis and renewing the WK with the Spiritseer when needed
Main problem is the WB being able to keep it up with WK movement, and the ability of my enemy to deny my WB backup.
. I'll post the results on monday if there's someone interested

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Putting these quotes together because ya'll are essentially addressing the same thing. First of all, Dessorag, Shees aren't 18 points/model. Double check your codex.

Second of all, S3 AP3 is strait up better then S4 AP - against the vast majority of troops in the game. I really don't know why ya'll are thinking it isn't. You have a 33% wound rate against anything T4. Where as, the S4 AP - has a 16.67% wound rate against 3+ saves (MEq) and a 25% wound rate against 4+ saves (Necron Warriors). Against T3 4+ Saves, the Shees have a 50% wound rate while the S4 AP - has a 33% wound rate. Even against GEq (5+ T3) the Shees weapon profile comes out ahead.

And, yes, while the Tactical Marine technically has the same chance of wounding the Shee, he has half the attacks and I4. I mean, technical Tactical Marines have the same chance of wounding Assault Marines as Assault Marines have of wound Tactical Marines, on a per swing bases. No one would confuse that with Tactical Marines being just as good in assault as Assault Marines, though.

In Summary, if I could assault 10 Tacs with 10 Shees I would take that match up every single time. I don't care if they are in cover or not. The Shees win that matchup handily. That's, quite literally, the target they were designed to attack. It's their most efficient matchup.

Shees have their problems, don't get me wrong. They die out in the open rather quickly. But lets give the girls their due. They are quite efficient at slicing down the vast majority of infantry targets, particularly MEq.

Actually, against MEQ, Banshees are only (10 girls) - 30*.5*.33 = 5 wounds and kills. 5/30 = 16.66%

9 Striking Scorpions - 9*.33*.33 = 1 + 27*.5*.5*.33 = 2.2 = 3.2 kills on MEQ. They are going to strike at initiative against units in cover and survive the hits in return and overwatch better than the Banshees.

5 Shining Spears w/ Exarch + SL - 11*.5*.83 = 4.5 wounds and kills. Definitely going to weather the return fire and overwatch better with increased toughness and save/cover save.

I think you are going to be better served by Shining Spears or Striking Scorpions in almost every situation except 10 tacticals out of cover. If you want to take the Banshees, go for it, but you probably aren't getting the best bang for your buck.


In regards to Eldar CC in general, if they had the ability to take an assault transport, I think they would be a top 3 CC army. They have some great CC HQ in the Phoenix Lords and some of the Exarch upgrades are top tier. Imagine 3 units of Scorpions (or 2 with the 3rd being Wraithblades with axes) charging out of a transport led by Asurmen or Karandas and 3 exarchs with Scorpion's Claws. Back them up with a couple units of Shining Spears to target some Suits or outlying units, Jetbikes for scoring and Wraithknights for everything else and you have a scary army.

One thing I really don't understand is the inability to mix Wraithblade units. They are kind of our TEQ equivalent right? Well, why shouldn't our "SS users" be able to mingle with the "Lightening Claw users"?

Actually, against MEQ, Banshees are only (10 girls) - 30*.5*.33 = 5 wounds and kills. 5/30 = 16.66%

Sorry, I should have specified I was assuming the hit, as it the WS is the same in either case.

9 Striking Scorpions - 9*.33*.33 = 1 + 27*.5*.5*.33 = 2.2 = 3.2 kills on MEQ. They are going to strike at initiative against units in cover and survive the hits in return and overwatch better than the Banshees.

This is the common mistake people make. They math out the first round of combat, which clearly show the Shees doing more damage, and make a vague reference to "nades" and "better armor saves" and assume this will keep push the Scorpions sufficiently ahead.

It does not. The number show the two units finishing almost identical, however the Shees do it a full round of CC quicker.

Take the example to the end of combat. Include the pistol shots, the overwatch shots, the whole kit and caboodle.

I'm going to keep decimals (rounded to hundredths) to the very end, as you lose something in the comparison when you round them. Our target here will be 10 Tacticals, which is among the stronger shooty units they would be assaulting, because, lets face it, neither of these units is being best used going around assaulting TH/SS standing around in cover.

Shees:


So, at the end of the second round of combat, the Shees are down to 7.39 while the Tacs are down to 1.45. It should be clear at this point that the Shees will win combat with about 7.39 models left, after three rounds. That's pretty damn efficient, considering they just wiped 10 Spess Marines...

Now on to the Scorps:

So, at the end of 3 rounds, the Scorps have 7.18 while the Tacs have 1.46. The Scorps should then finish them off in the 4th round, with 7.18 models left.


So, in the Scorps nominal setting, assaulting a unit in cover, they wipe the Tacs in 4 round with 7.18 models left, while the Shees wipe the Tacs in three rounds with 7.39 models left.

Now, another thing this illustration shows, is how close the Shees are to finishing off the Tacs in Round 2 (ie, the ideal for any CC unit). Throw in the Exarch and you are good to go. With the Scorps, you can add the Exarch in, which should be enough to allow them to accomplish this task, but then you are talking about a significantly more expensive unit (scorp Exarchs tend to be twice as expensive as Shees).

And, again, this is the Scorps nominal settings. If the unit is out of cover, or gone to ground, or already in CC...all events that are quite common in the actual game, the Shees come out significantly ahead.


The Scorps have stealth and mtc, so they operate in cover better when not in CC. This can't be denied. The Shees are faster across open ground, which can make their Battle Focus extra useful, but are generally at a disadvantage to the Scorps out of CC. Basically, Shees really want some LOS blocking terrain to take advantage of until they get stuck in the mix. However, the Shees have a clear advantage when blows start being struck.

Anyway, hope this illustration was as fun to read as it was to put together

Close combat is a place where bad things happen and should be avoided.

The only decent CC unit in the Eldar codex is the Seer Council, and that's only because they can leave. And what's the deal with people calling Seer Councils bad? Wtf?

The WK is sort of an oddball here, as it can make things happen in CC (like tying up Screamers, beating vehicles, breaking smaller squads, denying objectives, etc), but it isn't really a CC unit.

Shining Spears can work, but not really well without either a Seer Council or allies. The reason is that if it's the only aggressive threat it will be killed immediately, but if it's one of three or four threats it can do some serious damage, especially against the seemingly ubiquitous Riptides. With Nids coming next month, they might be even better. Remember, Monster Hunter carries over to the whole squad.

Close combat is a place where bad things happen and should be avoided.

I love statements like this. So silly, incredibly over generalized, and really, just wrong. If you are a CC unit, you should seek out CC. In fact, if your in range of another unit, and better at CC then it is, even if you are not a traditional "CC" unit, you should seek out CC.

The WK is sort of an oddball here, as it can make things happen in CC (like tying up Screamers, beating vehicles, breaking smaller squads, denying objectives, etc), but it isn't really a CC unit.

Something with 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge isn't a real CC unit?

That's...interesting.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Close combat is a place where bad things happen and should be avoided.

I love statements like this. So silly, incredibly over generalized, and really, just wrong. If you are a CC unit, you should seek out CC. In fact, if your in range of another unit, and better at CC then it is, even if you are not a traditional "CC" unit, you should seek out CC.

The WK is sort of an oddball here, as it can make things happen in CC (like tying up Screamers, beating vehicles, breaking smaller squads, denying objectives, etc), but it isn't really a CC unit.

Something with 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge isn't a real CC unit?

That's...interesting.

The silly, incredibly over generalized and really just wrong statement was made in the context of the Eldar codex and referred to Eldar units.

The notion that you "should seek out CC" just because you are a CC unit is how you lose games.

CC units are either threats, or they are (at least temporarily) irrelevant. For CC units that are actually good, this is not such a big issue because they can't just be wiped out whenever the opponent feels like it. Eldar CC units, however, are either irrelevant, or they are dead. Banshees, Scorpions, Harlequins... They are irrelevant until they can assault something important in the next turn, and then they die. Horribly, quickly, and effortlessly. Compare that to a unit of Chaos Spawn with some sort of Lord or Sorcerer. If the opponent doesn't start dealing with them in time, they will destroy his backfield.


And the WK is not really a CC unit. It's mainly board control. If you bring it so you can run towards the opponent, you might get away with against noobs, but against anyone who knows what they are doing, you'll end up losing a game you thought was close, but never really was.

Only having played ~against~ them, Wraithguard seem to be able to wreck face in cc. I wasn't familiar with them, and I charged into 6 AP 2 Flamers, then cc against T6 models... also a problem.

But, as many have pointed out, Eldar find their main strength in shooting and moving - and 6th Ed. certainly favors shooting... so it seems like cc-based combat may not be the best choice, unless you really want a fluff-driven army that favors cc. In which case you'll have to be flexible.

The silly, incredibly over generalized and really just wrong statement was made in the context of the Eldar codex and referred to Eldar units.

The notion that you "should seek out CC" just because you are a CC unit is how you lose games.

CC units are either threats, or they are (at least temporarily) irrelevant. For CC units that are actually good, this is not such a big issue because they can't just be wiped out whenever the opponent feels like it. Eldar CC units, however, are either irrelevant, or they are dead. Banshees, Scorpions, Harlequins... They are irrelevant until they can assault something important in the next turn, and then they die. Horribly, quickly, and effortlessly. Compare that to a unit of Chaos Spawn with some sort of Lord or Sorcerer. If the opponent doesn't start dealing with them in time, they will destroy his backfield.


And the WK is not really a CC unit. It's mainly board control. If you bring it so you can run towards the opponent, you might get away with against noobs, but against anyone who knows what they are doing, you'll end up losing a game you thought was close, but never really was.

Thanks for the lesson chief. I run a predominantly CC force with Necrons, another "non-CC" army, and I almost never lose.

But I'm sure a Jump MC with 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge to go along with 2 S 10 AP2 Insta death shots isn't really a CC unit. You have such a restrictive definition of what a "CC unit" is you have effectively rendered the term meaningless.

We could have a constructive debate, or you could keep going with your straw man. This is getting tedious.

Ah, you have alluded to a rhetorical fallacy. Surely that must mean I'm off base.

Let's see, you say that WK's aren't really CC units, I dispute the notion that WK's aren't real CC units, and now I'm attacking a strawman? What strawman would that be, precisely? Please let me know what argument of yours I have mischaracterized.

Also, you entered this "constructive debate" with destructive analysis.

I tend to look for solutions, while some can only get lost in problems. But, then again, I'm really good at this game. /shrug

Anyone who thinks that Eldar do not have good or useful close combat units is fooling fooling themselves.

Thud wrote:


Shining Spears can work, but not really well without either a Seer Council or allies. The reason is that if it's the only aggressive threat it will be killed immediately, but if it's one of three or four threats it can do some serious damage, especially against the seemingly ubiquitous Riptides. With Nids coming next month, they might be even better. Remember, Monster Hunter carries over to the whole squad.

An autarch on a jetbike also goes very well with them

Asurman. Seriously. You really should try him out. =)

Eldar CC vs Tactical Marines is a pretty pointless endeavor to even think about.

When was the last time you were concerned about being in or around any kind of assault with Tactical Marines? I'm gonna guess never. Even Guardians wouldn't care as they can shoot them to death without concern.

The only time close combat matters is when someone has either brought something good at assault near you, and that isn't Tactical Marines.

All the math versus bolter marines is useless in the actual game where you're likely only going to be concerned about fighting Hive Tyrants, Tervigons, Daemon Princes, Flesh Hounds, or any of the other things that are actually intending to be in assault.

If you're having some issue killing Tactical Marines, deciding between Banshees or Scorpions should be pretty far down on your list of options to consider.

I normally bring scorpions and either karandras or Asurmen, they both kill and with infiltrating scorpions 12" out behind los blocking terrain usually allows for a turn 1 assault or forces the opponent to move away, meaning less shooting from the heavy weapons and a large amount of area denial forcing my opponent to stay put and not move foreward.