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The wording of the Champion of Chaos rule makes me wonder if you can roll on it from shooting.

Consider this situation.

A 5-man CSM squad with a Asp-champ with 2 plasma pistols and a chaos lord with 1-plasma pistol roll up an a rhino (a lot of if's...)

They shoot at a unit of marines on foot with the Sarge in the front (silly marine player). The CSM player gets 3 hits with the plasma pistols and chooses to allocate the plasma wounds first. Dingus Sarge fails his Look out Sir and dies.

Now, do both the champ and the lord roll on the boon table because they killed a character? (check the wording of the rule in the CSM book... I think this might be right)

I searched for "Chaos Boon Shooting" and yielded no results before posting.

I think you have to separate whose shots are whose... same as you would if they had different strengths... I'll leave other people to prove/disprove that though as I'm not near my rulebook.

I will need to review the rules again when I get back to the Library, but there has to be some timing restriction or maybe a restriction on when the rule can be evoked, but again don't exactly know so will have to review later.

There's a special rule attached to those shots so they'd have to be separate.

You can get boons from shooting attacks as they only need to kill an enemy character to get a roll. It must be done immediately.

The Lord should have been rolled separate however, seeing as he is BS5 and the CSM are BS4.

Yes you can but 2 people cant kill on Target because the way you must seperate rolls, Like Precision shots as most people forget they exist.

So say your example the Other 4 CSM shoot first kill1 marine and your asp shoots his pistols rolls sixes to hit and targets the sarge he doesnt make look out sir roll and would then subsequently die granting just the asp champ the roll on the boon table.

Even if he has multiple wounds and say the asp does one and the lord finishes him off, The lord would only be getting he roll.

And Since they Were "gets hot" shots you had to roll them separately.

Plus having additional Special rules that are effected by the outcome of the attacks.

The wounds have the same strength, AP values and special rules, why would each be in it's own pool? Furthermore, the CoC rule even addresses a character being killed by multiple wounds being allocated to it simultaneously.

Wounds are only Simultaneously allocated in CC; Shooting attacks are Sequential other than rolling to hit.

OP, by the rule, both would roll on the table.

 Happyjew wrote:
The wounds have the same strength, AP values and special rules, why would each be in it's own pool? Furthermore, the CoC rule even addresses a character being killed by multiple wounds being allocated to it simultaneously.

I think that since the application of the rules on different models has a big impact on the game it should be two different piles. It's not RAW but HIWPI is that when 2 characters are using the same weapon (doom sirens for example) I'd put them in two sub pools to ensure a clear and trouble free resolution of the COC rule. If I am running Lucius in a squad of noise marines with doom siren champion my opponent would go nuts if I started to claim it was one or the other without making it clear from the get go, especially if I roll spawn and claim it was the champion.

They would not both kill the sergeant. One of the wounds would kill the sergeant, then the other two would kill other models. Only one character would get the boon.

 Spellbound wrote:
They would not both kill the sergeant. One of the wounds would kill the sergeant, then the other two would kill other models. Only one character would get the boon.

If you make one group of wounds for those characters how do you tell which one got the boon?

tell them which one to do a LoS first. First one that fails gets the kill.

TYPICALLY wounds are done in "pools" and they all happen "at the same time" but they really don't. The guy in front dies first, the next guy dies after that, etc. etc. Most of the time, the order doesn't matter but there IS an order. Since there are special rules involved, best to resolve them one at a time (which is a perfectly legal way to do it) rather than group them in pools.

And if they want to throw a fit, then roll a die. 4+ it's the chaos lord, 1-3 it's the champion.

You really didn't read what I said at all did you?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 Spellbound wrote:
They would not both kill the sergeant. One of the wounds would kill the sergeant, then the other two would kill other models. Only one character would get the boon.

If you make one group of wounds for those characters how do you tell which one got the boon?

on the other hand how do you know which one will not get the boon? Not rolling them separately can lead to the discussion of 'we know one killed the guy but we can't prove if either killed the guy because it could have been the other shooter' and thus no one gets credit for the kill and no one gets a boon. If I was a piffy chaos god that's how I'd handle it. Best to roll separate and avoid the issue.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 Spellbound wrote:
They would not both kill the sergeant. One of the wounds would kill the sergeant, then the other two would kill other models. Only one character would get the boon.

If you make one group of wounds for those characters how do you tell which one got the boon?

By not using the fast dice method.

It is pretty easy to declare which Plasma pistol wound you are having the opposing player roll saves for.

And wound allocation is sequential, so there is that.

If an enemy character dies as a result of multiple Wounds being allocated to it simultaneously, and one or more of those Wounds were caused by the champion, that champion still rolls on the Chaos Boon table

Yep, and the only time Wounds are simultaneously allocated is in the Assault phase, where all of each initiative step is simultaneous.

Shooting lacks the specific wording only stating that to-hit rolls are simultaneous, the rest of shooting(like wound allocation) is sequential

I don't really see where the sequence is...

You roll to hit and then roll to wound.

Even if you have different Strength weapons, it doesn't mean you make them in a different phase or sequence, its just a different results, but they are all made in the Same sequence, the To Wound rolls.

The only way it would'nt work is like you said because the Initiative in CC, but thats it.

We are told exactly which things are Simultaneous(rolling to hit in shooting and the entirety of each Assault Phase Initiative step); anything that is not said to be Simultaneous would default to not Simultaneous, or sequential.

Then you have the wound allocation process in shooting which is absolutely sequential as you allocate each wound from the wound pool until such time as the model you are allocating to is destroyed and then you move on to the next model.

The roll To Hit is itself a sequence:
Each shot generates a single D6 that is rolled and compared against a chart. The first shot generates a result, the second shot generates a result, the third shot... and so forth. The end result of the successes are then moved onto the next step in the larger sequence where they follow a similar process. Within the To Hit rules themselves is hint's that you have permission to roll all Rolls at the same time, which is allowed in other sections and played for the sake of speed throughout the game, as long as you meet one requirement: You separate the results to keep track of weapon Strengths, Special Rules, AP values and other pieces of useful information that could require you to know exactly which shot was which.

If you have no way to tell them apart page 13 has one last thing to say on the matter: roll them separately.

Interestingly enough, the requirement to keep the results separated even if do you have permission to roll the Rolls simultaneously exists for one major purpose: To make it clear which shot is being resolved during the Wound Allocation stage. This brings us back to to the topic at hand; Evoking a Special Rule that requires the champion to remove another character as a casualty, if done during the shooting attack and it is possible to prove the wound came from the champion? Seems like the exact situation all these 'keep the results separate to know which is which' requirements where designed for.

And we are told that all shooting rolls to hit are simultaneous; Are we told that Shooting wounds are simultaneous?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And we are told that all shooting rolls to hit are simultaneous; Are we told that Shooting wounds are simultaneous?

This is a stretch by far.

We are told to group wounds by Strength, AP, and special rules. The plasma pistol wounds are exactly the same and would all go into the same pool. As such there it's no way to know which wound is the one that dealt the final blow.

 Happyjew wrote:
We are told to group wounds by Strength, AP, and special rules. The plasma pistol wounds are exactly the same and would all go into the same pool. As such there it's no way to know which wound is the one that dealt the final blow.

Excepting that there is a special rule in play that requires us to know, and thus you will have 2 separate wound pools, one with the CoC from the Lord, and one with the CoC from the Champion.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Then you have the wound allocation process in shooting which is absolutely sequential as you allocate each wound from the wound pool until such time as the model you are allocating to is destroyed and then you move on to the next model.

That's exactly the same in close combat.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
We are told to group wounds by Strength, AP, and special rules. The plasma pistol wounds are exactly the same and would all go into the same pool. As such there it's no way to know which wound is the one that dealt the final blow.

Excepting that there is a special rule in play that requires us to know, and thus you will have 2 separate wound pools, one with the CoC from the Lord, and one with the CoC from the Champion.

There is no RAW to support that. CoC is not different for the Lord or the Champion so there is no special rule that give you permission to have a separate pool, it's a logical and sensible way to play it that you have two groups.

Except shooting isn't really simultaneous or all your shots would just kill the guy in front. The shooter chooses the order in which his shots get saved, so he can have all the Bolter shots go first or the plasma first, or the lords first.

No.

You make the rolls and the wounds, the opponent makes the saves, and then he allocates the unsaved wounds beginning with the closest model.