Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It seems general consensus that the perpetuals are gak.

Can they be retconned, further explained to perhaps make them...fit in or make sense? IE, the remaining perpetuals didn't show up to the "create the emperor suicide party", they remain to reflect the individuality of mankind, with the GEOM being the collective.

I kind of want this idea to work. Something like a normal man, no where near as powerful as empy, but can say "No, I was there too and it didn't go down that way", or at least pose some opposition, which doesn't need to be violent, but maybe even respected as a character like Oll could be his elder.

Or, it's stupid beyond recovery and the pain meds have won.

They were just the dream of the the Emperor's autistic son, Tomás Westfall, primarch of the 2nd Legion.

They should remain like the Sensei... immortal, from various points in the timeline of the Emperor's life... and constantly on the run from the Inquisition, as there are fates far worse than death for an immortal, but not omnipotent, being.

The idea is gak and cannot be saved. It needs to be Squatted out of existence.

I think the idea adds to the grim dak tbf. Think about it - if there was no-one left alive who had been around during the time of the great crusade then there is no-one to truely appreciate the enormity of the fall from grace humanity has suffered.
Imagine going back in time to the medieval ages where technology was not advanced and religious dogma was responsible for the persecution of untold thousands, to a time where humanity suffered in grinding disease ridden poverty compared to the current day. Where no-one believes you and in fact believe you to be a heretic when you tell them there is a 'better way'.
The perpetuals went 10,000 years into the future, but they would feel the same as us going 700years into the past, but instead of knowing things will improve in the future, they know it will only get worse. They knew a time when the light of technology, advanced civilzation and the strength of their species light up the galaxy... now they see only darkness... they lived through the change, and despite their best efforts their was nothing they could do to prevent it... that is grimdak if ever ive seen it!

squidhills wrote:
The idea is gak and cannot be saved. It needs to be Squatted out of existence.

Yep

Look what they did to Ollanius Pius and Vulkan.

Ollanius Pius before: a man. An individual that put himself between Horus and the Emperor after seeing Horus killing Sanguinius and brutalizing the Emperor (ripping out his arm, breaking his spine...). And he was a man. That´s courage and loyalty. His sacrifice gave time to the Emperor, and focus. He is remembered as a saint.
Ollanius Pius after: a perpetual. Immortal, impossible to kill, equal to the Emperor. A badass individual that had nothing to lose fighting against Horus, who is like a baby to him. Pius was back fifteen seconds after his "sacrifice". A scam of a saint. Oh, and he was in every major thing in human story. He was an argonaut, no less. Oh, my, so powerful.

Vulkan before. A mighty primarch.
Vulkan after. A primarch who gets killed all the time, with ease. He keeps coming back, so who cares?

Gak. And the damage is already done.

@da001: Personally, I find it more believable in the 40k universe that Pius was a pretty special guy in order to even be present *as a human* when the Emperor assaulted Horus' flagship.

When hitting one of the enemy's strongholds in a lightning attack you don't take the weakest elements of the forces at your disposal; you take the ones most likely to succeed. So for that spot to be taken by a non-marine he had to be much more than just a man.

Regarding Vulkan, well, I always thought the Salamanders were kind of like pansies anyway so I never really considered him to be a "mighty" primarch. Instead, I saw him as more like your sqeaky little brother: someone to be coddled. The fact he went galavanting around the galaxy leaving clues behind for his pansy legion to to find instead of standing up and continuing to fight for the Imperium is just like a coward.

At least by saying he was locked up and pretty much unable to get back to his legion he has somewhat of an excuse.

No, in those situations, you take what you have available, because you've been offered a chance to take control of the battlefield and cut the head off the enemy force.

If one had time to plan the assault, sure, you take the best you can get. But, instead, the shields to Horus' flagship were down. You don't know how long that is going to last. You turn to the people standing around you and you say "All you guys, follow me!" and they do, because you're the Emperor.

And you just so happened to have a squad of Imperial Army dudes there, and they followed you, and that one guy survived the way to where you meet Horus, and gets wtfpwned because he didn't have a hope in hell of doing anything.

Who cares that Vulkan can't die?

Pretty sure the Night Haunter did.
Pretty sure that turned out pretty terribly for Vulkan.
Pretty sure that's one of the most grimdark parts of the HH.

Vulcan... we know he's just going to dissapear into the mists of time at the end of the Scouring.

He's the anti-Konrad, not Corax.

Konrad: spreads fear, wants recognition, takes cowards' way out telling himself the whole time that he's better than everyone else (and not even believing it himself)

Vulcan: spreads hope, cares not for recognition, takes the cowards' way out and probably ends up living a simple life on a backwater planet, telling himself he's not special but never really believing it himself.

I for one refuse to make up my mind on perpetuals just yet. I've got a hunch BL is building to something with them

I don't get why the idea of perpetuals should be so stupid.

im with Poly Ranger on this one, i like the Idea of the Perpeuals true they could be expanded on with a bit of a back story (like most of 40k/HH) but i dont think they need saving to be honest.

it would be nice to see them having more of an appearance not so much to have a huge part to play dont make them a center piece but they could be used to nice explain some of the bollocks that we will never understand because BL didnt think it through enough.

i dont know i guess im not ready to give up hope on them just yet. like most things in the HH/40K universe there needs to be more of it. BL needs to sit down in a nice big room with all the writers (maybe bring a few new guys in) and make a nice big flow chart of how they are going to mop and bucket hal of the crap they have written and how they are going to tie up useless endings.

Rostere wrote:
I don't get why the idea of perpetuals should be so stupid.

Because they are a story element that was randomly thrown in with no prior justification/backstory/connection to previous canon, and they are used in such a way as to diminish the emotional impact of existing storylines (Omnious Pious).

If you know you're going to get resurrected when you die, there's not much of a sacrifice involved. When that terminator ran at Horus, he knew he was fethed, but did it anyways. He spent his one life to fight for his sense of honour, duty, and morality, fighting hopelessly against evil. He doesn't get his life back. If a perpetual did it, it's no big deal at all, he just resurrects and is like "well that sucked" and moves on with his (infinite) life.

It weakens the story.

Rostere wrote:
I don't get why the idea of perpetuals should be so stupid.

Yeah. The only HH novel I've read featuring them was Legion, so maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see anything inherently awful about the concept.

@pefect organism

first of all read your name as perfect orgasm

second of all read know no fear excellent book and it give more of a look into the Perps

BallinWitStalin wrote:

Rostere wrote:
I don't get why the idea of perpetuals should be so stupid.

Because they are a story element that was randomly thrown in with no prior justification/backstory/connection to previous canon, and they are used in such a way as to diminish the emotional impact of existing storylines (Omnious Pious).

If you know you're going to get resurrected when you die, there's not much of a sacrifice involved. When that terminator ran at Horus, he knew he was fethed, but did it anyways. He spent his one life to fight for his sense of honour, duty, and morality, fighting hopelessly against evil. He doesn't get his life back. If a perpetual did it, it's no big deal at all, he just resurrects and is like "well that sucked" and moves on with his (infinite) life.

It weakens the story.

depends on how it works. we don't have eneugh information. I'm beginning to wonder if Perpetuals are a bit like the Nameless One from Planescape Torment. effectivly immortal but everytime he dies he loses a peice of himself

 da001 wrote:

squidhills wrote:
The idea is gak and cannot be saved. It needs to be Squatted out of existence.

Yep

Look what they did to Ollanius Pius and Vulkan.

Ollanius Pius before: a man. An individual that put himself between Horus and the Emperor after seeing Horus killing Sanguinius and brutalizing the Emperor (ripping out his arm, breaking his spine...). And he was a man. That´s courage and loyalty. His sacrifice gave time to the Emperor, and focus. He is remembered as a saint.
Ollanius Pius after: a perpetual. Immortal, impossible to kill, equal to the Emperor. A badass individual that had nothing to lose fighting against Horus, who is like a baby to him. Pius was back fifteen seconds after his "sacrifice". A scam of a saint. Oh, and he was in every major thing in human story. He was an argonaut, no less. Oh, my, so powerful.

Vulkan before. A mighty primarch.
Vulkan after. A primarch who gets killed all the time, with ease. He keeps coming back, so who cares?

Gak. And the damage is already done.

Pius as a perpetual would actually become more unique than ever if he was revealed to now be a perpetual because he was a biological son of the Emperor- not grown in a gene-pod like the Primarchs.

Vulkan? Yeah, it's gone too far now. Yes, we know he's immortal BL, we didn't forget it. Now stop stabbing and gutting him just to remind us.

BallinWitStalin wrote:

Rostere wrote:
I don't get why the idea of perpetuals should be so stupid.

Because they are a story element that was randomly thrown in with no prior justification/backstory/connection to previous canon, and they are used in such a way as to diminish the emotional impact of existing storylines (Omnious Pious).

If you know you're going to get resurrected when you die, there's not much of a sacrifice involved. When that terminator ran at Horus, he knew he was fethed, but did it anyways. He spent his one life to fight for his sense of honour, duty, and morality, fighting hopelessly against evil. He doesn't get his life back. If a perpetual did it, it's no big deal at all, he just resurrects and is like "well that sucked" and moves on with his (infinite) life.

It weakens the story.

Well, that's not exactly true. The Perpetuals seem somewhat loosely based on the Sensei of previous editions of 40K, who were the immortal children of the Emperor (his actual children, fathered over the many millennia of his life). How BL chooses to go forward with the Perpetuals is anyone's guess, but the core concept of them was not just made up last week.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Perpetuals seem somewhat loosely based on the Sensei of previous editions of 40K

I wouldn't say so, the Sensei lived forever, but they could still be killed, they were stronger, faster and tougher than the rest of humanity, being genetic counterparts to Marines in many ways. They were also all a special kind of psyker - they were called psychic blanks because they couldn't be seen by psykers, but that terms changed a little - and they couldn't feel the negative emotions associated with Chaos. Most if not all did not know that they had any relation to the Emperor.
Perpetuals are only similar in that they're immortal, though it seems to be an entirely different kind of immortality, and that they may have something to do with the Emperor.

Perpetuals, apparently, can also die, at least in some way, since the God-Emperor is a Perpetual and yet is also somehow a rotting corpse on a chair.

 Psienesis wrote:
Perpetuals, apparently, can also die, at least in some way, since the God-Emperor is a Perpetual and yet is also somehow a rotting corpse on a chair.

Well, it could also be preventing him from healing rather than serving as life-support.

Perpetuals is actually an interesting concept and could have been well implemented. Key word is 'could'.

Perhaps, but would it not just balance out? Can't heal, but is immortal, so can't rot...

I mean, he might not heal from getting run through by Horus, but would his body continue to necrotize?

I mean, let's be honest here, the Perpetual idea is not well-planned, because we know that all of the Primarchs were, at one point, actual children. This would include Vulkan.

At what point does your immortality kick in? At what point do you stop aging? I mean, being an immortal, and 500 years old, and *looking* like you are 500 years old is pretty fething terrible, if you think about it.

 Psienesis wrote:
Perhaps, but would it not just balance out? Can't heal, but is immortal, so can't rot...

I mean, he might not heal from getting run through by Horus, but would his body continue to necrotize?

I mean, let's be honest here, the Perpetual idea is not well-planned, because we know that all of the Primarchs were, at one point, actual children. This would include Vulkan.

At what point does your immortality kick in? At what point do you stop aging? I mean, being an immortal, and 500 years old, and *looking* like you are 500 years old is pretty fething terrible, if you think about it.

I'd presume it's biological immortality or similar to it. Where you're simply at your healthiest state with decayed cells being replaced by perfectly healthy cells. So you'd continue to grow as a child, just that you wouldn't age. That and wolverine-level regeneration. So you're stuck looking like you're in your twenties/thirties.

Sure, though that's a Hollywoodism. There's no reason why Wolverine (or anyone else who regenerates) does not permanently look like they are in their late teens/early 20s. Biologically speaking, this is the end of your "growing up" time, and the start of your "beginning to die" time.

And the Perpetuals seem to be more than just biologically immortal here, they seem to have the ability to "respawn" after seeming destruction of their bodies. Biological immortality means you live forever, but can be killed through violence or accident.

 Psienesis wrote:
Sure, though that's a Hollywoodism. There's no reason why Wolverine (or anyone else who regenerates) does not permanently look like they are in their late teens/early 20s. Biologically speaking, this is the end of your "growing up" time, and the start of your "beginning to die" time.

And the Perpetuals seem to be more than just biologically immortal here, they seem to have the ability to "respawn" after seeming destruction of their bodies. Biological immortality means you live forever, but can be killed through violence or accident.

Biological immortality typically means that you're just immune to aging, hence the later twenties-early thirties bit. And Wolverine looks like he's in his twenties



Besides a terrible looking costume, Wolverine's always looked older, thirties even getting into his forties in appearance. Movie Wolverine's played by Hugh Jackman, who's looked similar to that appearance through his career of playing the character.

Also, they don't respawn. They likely just reassemble themselves off-screen from either being meaty gibs or even dust.

Wolvie looks how whatever artist has him this year wants him to look. He's gone from mid-thirties to early-50s in the, what, 40 years the character has existed?

I'm just pointing out that, if they were truly biologically immortal, and therefore immune to aging, then they should stop visibly aging in their late teens or early 20s, since that is, biologically speaking, when humans have reached their complete adult form, and now begin the long process of cellular degradation until eventual cessation of biological function.

Perhaps it's an Highlander type of deal?

You die the first time..and then you're stuck looking like that forever.

First death at 10 because of some freak accident? Sorry you're gonna look 10 forever.

Died at 80 after falling down the stairs? Well, you're gonna be an immortal..and look old to boot!

Hmm, could be! Hadn't considered that.

Of course, I really try not to think about Perpetuals at all, because I think making Pius and Vulkan (and, apparently, like 90 other characters) immortals is fething terrible, but what are ya gonna do?

Well, I don't read the novels, only heard if from one of my player, so Pius is still badass mortal soldier #353565453 who's now a IG Saint instead of Mary-sue running around with his dimension teleporting deamon knife or whatever the hell that was he told me about.