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I'm still kind of new to the hobby, but can anyone tell me why I should give my Boyz Sluggas and Choppas over Shootas? It just seems to me like Shootas are way better for the same cost?

Sluggas can sometimes be better in transports, which always tend to promote in your face melee over stand back and shoot.

However, honestly, you take sluggas because either you don't have models for shootas or your just desperate to get some CC in the game and don't mind losing. They're pure crap by comparison

Shootas are better in almost all cases. About the only time I ever use Choppa Boyz is when you're doing a Trukk mob.

The numbers have been run countless times and unless you are running trukk mobs the shoota boyz will ALWAYS come out on top.

It's cause once shootas were rapid fire. Even in previous edition choppas were really good, like a 2-d turn charge with a wagon rush or with ghazskull's run. But with new rules that nerf mellee - shootas are so much better than sluggas.

It's my personal prejudice that giving an Ork Boy a Shoota is like giving a Nob a Snazzgun. But it's edition Dakka right?

But, I'm gonna be bias and present my only point;
-BS2 Means you are hitting with a gun 33% of the time
-WS4 means you are hitting most targets 50% of the time, targets with WS3 are getting hit 66% of the time.
-There are no cover saves in CC.

Why are we trying to increase the output of something on a 33% modifier instead of the 50/66% one? Edition Dakka.

New Codex soon, rumors of an early 7th ED. Whatever you want to paint man.

 Rismonite wrote:

Why are we trying to increase the output of something on a 33% modifier instead of the 50/66% one? Edition Dakka.

Choppa+Slugga:
+1 mellee attack - however, with more than 2 times worse shooting cause of number of shots and range, there are more enemies left alive in an enemy unit. More enemies left alive = more retaliation. I'm not even telling about overwatch now.
Imagine you charge an enemy unit with 10 models in it - there were previously 12 but you killed 2 with shooting sluggas. Let's say you rolled good and are now into close combat. Enemies strike first and kill u'r closest models, the more enemies there are - the more they kill and with 6+ boyz will die. So there are less boyz left at the front and than you make a 3' pile in move and less boyz will hit thus making same or even less number of attacks that shootaboyz could have done.
I'm not just making it out. When i've just started playing 6-th edition after 5-th where i was extremely assault-oriented and prefered choppaboyz in wagonz to shootas. Even some of my 30-strong footslogas were choppa-boyz. But what happened in 6 ed with such attitude:

Slightly better than average biker's rolls and totally average orkse's moving and striking.

Shootas can already take care of themselves in melee very respectably well and thanks to them using assault weapons they can keep on firing their very respectable guns during the journey to charge range just like how sluggas can fire off their pistols while doing the same. Except that shootas get 6' more range and another shot.

Yep, that's what i'm saying. Shootas are much more universal and less dependant on movement rolls cause if they fail a dt test...well, they can shoot great at least!
And as you can see on my image - that's exactly the situation where more dakka and no charge would have been way better. And it happens quite often now. Boyz are just not that great in mellee no more. U need positioning and speed. If you keep them clustered up - they have better chances of doing damage in mellee but die to blasts and flamers.

Logic that makes no sense to me.. Am I assaulting it? Then why am I shooting? I should be running.

Is this the turn I'm assaulting? Ok maybe I shouldn't shoot it since my charge distance will be 7"

"WAAAGH"

Don't play Orks until 7th ed

Yorkskargrim wrote:
Don't play Orks until 7th ed

Far too late for that.

 Rismonite wrote:
Logic that makes no sense to me.. Am I assaulting it? Then why am I shooting? I should be running.

Is this the turn I'm assaulting? Ok maybe I shouldn't shoot it since my charge distance will be 7"

"WAAAGH"

The problem is even if you have a 4-5' distance to charge - u're not mobile enough to get a good positioning and u're slowed down by dt. So even if you make it there - you won't kill enough. So it's sometimes better to shoot to minimise enemie's damage output when u're about to charge him. Espetially when it won't move him back like when he's in a line.
Once again. U don't have mobility to maneuvre while the enemy has it. When previously, mobility and initiative ment less cause you could kill the far-away models, now when you get flanked - you can't hope to bring a good mellee fight since boyz are slow and have 6+ armor. With the significantly diminished number of attacks with reduced pile in and closest deaths you now fight worse cause LOWER ammount of models can strike blows. And +1 mellee attack won't ballance it back.

So, logic is simple. If you can be significantly better at shooting with a shoota and not worse in mellee...why take choppa?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more you kill before mellee - the less they kill in mellee before you strike. The less they kill - the more you strike.

 Rismonite wrote:
Logic that makes no sense to me.. Am I assaulting it? Then why am I shooting? I should be running.

Is this the turn I'm assaulting? Ok maybe I shouldn't shoot it since my charge distance will be 7"

"WAAAGH"

Shooting kills stuff, running does not. Killed stuff doesn't shoot back, and doesn't fight back when you are assaulting it.

Running as fast as possible to your doom might be fluffy, but not an efficient tactic anymore. 6th edition made it so.

Slugga boyz don't have any major advantage over shoota boyz except for that single attack which has a very high chance of doing absolutely nothing due to the ork getting killed before striking (by shooting or higher initative) or simply not hitting/wounding/failing the save. For that reason shootaboyz are better. If you shoot two marines dead before engaging them, you probably get more attacks from orks not killed in retaliation/overwatch/shooting than equipping the whole mob with shootaz would.

Ork Boyz start with 2 Base attacks and marines with 1 no I do not understand!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Me and my buddy play this game all the time.. he likes Black Templar.. but he'll occasionally use the SM chapter tactics Imperial Fists to play shooty with me..

I have this fight right here in my house... I also have the tau book.. please.. tell me what Tau army I should proxy in at 750 points tonight and expirment shooting my Boyz with.. I'lll do it and bring the results here.

I have no problems admittting it's edition Dakka. I just think that Ork statlines have no space for Shooting and we only entertain the idea because of the edition.

Shoota are barely worse then sluggas in combat. but have the advantage of shooting when they aren't in assault range, overwatching, and being able to be a threat without having to rush down the enemy (like when you need to hold objectives)

The problem is that you are imagining that shoota boys are shooting only but thats wrong. Shootas are both combat and shooting at the same time and that utility is what makes them so much better then the assault-only sluggas

 Rismonite wrote:
Ork Boyz start with 2 Base attacks and marines with 1 no I do not understand!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Me and my buddy play this game all the time.. he likes Black Templar.. but he'll occasionally use the SM chapter tactics Imperial Fists to play shooty with me..

I have this fight right here in my house... I also have the tau book.. please.. tell me what Tau army I should proxy in at 750 points tonight and expirment shooting my Boyz with.. I'lll do it and bring the results here.

I have no problems admittting it's edition Dakka. I just think that Ork statlines have no space for Shooting and we only entertain the idea because of the edition.

Even in 4th / 5th Orks could bring a good shooting game to the table. Yes, BS2 means you're not hitting often. But Orks are good at VOLUME of fire. A Battlewagon loaded down with 20 Shootaboyz in it can unload an unhealthy amount of firepower. Lootas are good, but they're luck-dependent and can suck. If you have a group of 10 of them, and they roll well, you can get 30 shots out of them, which is awesome. However if you roll badly you're only getting 10 shots, and you'll be lucky if you get more than 3 hits.

 Rismonite wrote:
Ork Boyz start with 2 Base attacks and marines with 1 no I do not understand!

Exactly. That's why shoota boyz are good at assaulting without the bonus attack.

Slugga boyz are good at assaulting.
Shoota boyz are good at assaulting AND shooting.

The difference is that shoota boyz can shoot when they aren't able to assault for any reason or it's just isn't a smart thing to do. Sluggas don't have that option, that's why they are worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ork shooting always has been good, WS2 literally says nothing about your ability to kill things at range. You get three orks for every marine, that's six shots at half the weapon skill, resulting in 50% more hits than your average tactical marine would score, ignoring the small chance of actually hitting all six shots, which marines simply don't have.

Personally, I find Shoota Boyz to be better. At the cost of one attack, they get an upgraded gun that gives them an extra shot and six inches- for free. The only reason, at this point, to take slugga boyz would be to help give you the ten extra attacks needed to ping to death Terminators and such... but they get overwatched beforehand. When in doubt, dakka.

Although if your Nob has a Power Klaw, charge into some cans that he can open with that thing. (Or, even bettter, krump with it)

Yeah, shootas are better unless the slugga boyz are in transports that can either safely and/or quickly get them into combat.

tbh i think they should nerf shoota boyz, since they're still almost as fierce as sluggas in CC.

 koooaei wrote:
It's cause once shootas were rapid fire. Even in previous edition choppas were really good, like a 2-d turn charge with a wagon rush or with ghazskull's run. But with new rules that nerf mellee - shootas are so much better than sluggas.

It helps that former edition had better BS on some orks, and choppa's made 3+ saves worse.

Don't nerf shootas (everyone else gets OP stuff, why not us?), but rather make sluggas better

I'd love to see some variation of the choppaz rule come back, but more likely they'll give them AP6 and call it a damn day

NonameAI wrote:
Yeah, shootas are better unless the slugga boyz are in transports that can either safely and/or quickly get them into combat.

tbh i think they should nerf shoota boyz, since they're still almost as fierce as sluggas in CC.

Bad idea, shootas can barely hold their own in this current edition as it is, nerfing them to be on the same level as choppas wouldn't make choppas better, it would just make shootas worse and by extension orks as a whole worse. It's also important to point out that shootas aren't designed to be better than choppas, it's the 6th edition rules that make the shootas better.

 Rismonite wrote:
Ork Boyz start with 2 Base attacks and marines with 1 no I do not understand!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Me and my buddy play this game all the time.. he likes Black Templar.. but he'll occasionally use the SM chapter tactics Imperial Fists to play shooty with me..

I have this fight right here in my house... I also have the tau book.. please.. tell me what Tau army I should proxy in at 750 points tonight and expirment shooting my Boyz with.. I'lll do it and bring the results here.

I have no problems admittting it's edition Dakka. I just think that Ork statlines have no space for Shooting and we only entertain the idea because of the edition.

Well, just test it and then say what's better. Both for footslogging and battlewagon riding. Tau can bring literally anything shooty. Firewarriors, Kroots, Broadsides, Crysis teams, Riptides, Drones...anything.
I've tried out choppaboyz in 6 edition and was never satisfied with their results.

1. Footslogging choppas running behind a wagon. The theory was: Ride wagons full of shootaboyz and nobz forts and choppaboyz behind a wagon just run forward every turn till they engage something. But the problem is that they pose literally no threat till turn 3-4 and by that time you should start thinking about points.. While wagonz need to be as far as possible and provide turn 2-3 coming to the face. So by the time choppas arrive either the enemy is dead or the frontline orkses are and the enemy can easilly concentrate on chopas. And if he focuses his fire on chopas - they'll need extra turn of running to engage cause the front rows will be shot down.
For such role i'd prefer a 20-strong shoota mob with bigshootas cause they start dealing damage from turn 2-3. Meaning they'll inflict that extra casualties that will help wagon boyz on the front. Also, cause of how slow footsloggers are you sometimes have to stop midfield to contest objectives and once again, shootas are way better for holding points.
2. Footslogging choppaboyz horde. The theory was: Target saturation. When there's a wave of boyz - someone will eventually make it there and start dealing damage. Faced tau. Noone managed to reach the lines. Too slow, not too tough. Ignore cover, mass s5-s7. Half da boyz died not reaching midfield. Faced eldar - same thing. Faced marines - more boyz reached midfield but the enemy suffered too few casualties from my ranged support alone so marines shot down the remaining boyz, forced them to spend extra time just running forward cause of casualties and finished da orkses up in mellee.
I understand that that's not entirely the choppa/slugga problem but the problem of footslogging hordes in 6 ed. However, when i tried exactly the same thing but with shootaboyz - they managed to overcome marines (and when i added bikernobz - even tau).
3. Battlewagon choppas. The theory was: they get extra attack, so they're supposed to be better in mellee but they need to be delivered. Now that was the option that provided best results for choppaboyz. But when the wagons are stopped midfield - paragraph 1 repeats. Running, doing nothing, arriving too late, though not as late as footsloggas. But when wagonz kaboom - they suffer too many casualties to pose any real threat in mellee while shootaboyz even with like 10 left alive can score some kills per turn. Just mathhammering. 8 shootas, 2 bigshootas if all in range: 5 s4 hits, 2 s5 hits. Enough to kill around 2 meq. And more xeno. While still posing threat in mellee if they manage to get anywhere near the enemy.
Also, if u're riding a wagon - it's much easier to diseembark closer to the enemy. Sometimes even surround. And when u're like 1-3' away - you can not be afraid to shoot full strength. So you shoot, kill some enemies and than charge and finish them off in mellee while suffering less casualties. Yep, sometimes enemies fail morale and fall back. But if you feel that it's better not to overkill - you can still charge with just a 25% worse mellee output. It's still enough to wreak havok on the weak foes.
Also, there are numerous situations when you don't really want to be in mellee with boyz. Don't forget - if you charge you have much less controle over challenges + you eat up overwatch + you can not even make it there + less boyz will strike cause less will be engaged. If you don't charge - you shoot overwatch, can easilly avoid challenges and more boyz get engaged.

See, shootas are much more universal while loosing almost nothing in exchange.

I'm having some success running shoota boyz in battlewagons. With three squads of 20 getting 2 shots each you can put out a crazy number of shots and like they say make your opponent roll enough dice and they will eventually fail their saves.

Murrdox wrote:
Shootas are better in almost all cases. About the only time I ever use Choppa Boyz is when you're doing a Trukk mob.

Why put the Choppas in the Trukks? Why not more Shootas?

 crazyfoxdemon wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
Shootas are better in almost all cases. About the only time I ever use Choppa Boyz is when you're doing a Trukk mob.

Why put the Choppas in the Trukks? Why not more Shootas?

Do you mean Shoota boyz in the Trukk, or simply taking more Shoota boyz instead of spending points on the Trukk? A Truck full of CC Slugga boyz (or 3, or 4, or 5 Trukks...) can do some serious damage. It's a very Orky tactic that works well in certain situations.

I think each unit should play to its strengths. Slugga boyz should be assaulting, and Shoota boyz should be shooting (assaulting in a pinch). I agree that overall Shoota boyz are more versatile, so if you have the models (or can convert them), then run them as Shoota boyz.

In 4th edition Sluggas were king! They limited the Armor Save of any opponent to a maximum of 4+ at 9 ppm. They were insane against any Termenators! Shootas were 8 ppm and had 24" Rapid Fire weapons! Those were great days.

Anywho our current codex cut the price but also no longer limited armor saves. From Spring 2008 onwards (which was still 4th edition for a month ) there were endless debates abou which was better throughout 5th edition here on Dakka.

6th Edition killed that debate completely. I love Sluggas but I'm fully converted to Shootas.

Maybe the next codex will have a surprise in store for the good old Slugga Boy!

im currently runing at 8 wins to 1 loss (against a hard ork counter... namely two flying demons with iron arm and 4+ Fnp)

I run big mobs of both shoota boys and slugga boys, and they both have their roles,

shoota boys in mobs of 30 on foot for mid feild OB + shootyness,

slugga boys in trukks or BW's, cause they will never shoot anyways, and having 4 str 4 attacks each on the charge is HUGE, so is the bonus attack in further combat turns.

my shoota boys always do well, so do my slugga boys,

you trade one str 4 shot at 18" that hits 33% for one str 4 attack that hits 50% of the time, ignores cover, and wont botch your charge when it kills something.

the choppa orks still get a str 4 shooting attack at 12" so its not a huge loss for the 6" range and extra shot

but when I ROFLstomp armies like DE venom spam, or DA, or whatever its not because of the shootas... its because they lose in CC, and against 2+ saves, or stuff that goes first, you need the extra CC attack more then you need the xtra shooting... I dont even shoot the pistols because all too often the one casualty I inflict makes the charge fail, its even worse with the shootas... I dont want to shoot them and misss out on game winning CC...

shootas are much less effective in CC, and give up their shooting if they actually want to make it into CC most of the time... every casualty you inflict generally increases the roll you need on your charge by 2"

so the answer is they are both excellent choices, you need to use them right.. mid feild OBJ holding is shootas, getting to grips with the enemy in their zone is S+C

I'd tajke shoota boys, personally. The army I played with only had one unit of Boyz, so I was pretty much not needing more close combat attacks, given the 30 boyz size it was. Better to shoot and snapshot a ton with them unless the rest of the army is underpowered.