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Are the henchmen the best army to take out the power armourerd/terminator armour GK?

The inquisitors have access to weapons that are very anti-psyker eg psychollum which lets all models be bs 10 when shooting at psykers. As all GK are psykers this means that any unit firing at GK will be BS 10. Servitors with plasma cannons will be bs 10, joakeros with lascannons, warrior acoloytes with plasma guns etc etc.

they also have ccess to condemnor boltguns which are str 5 and if they hit a psyker that psyker automatically suffers a peril of the warp along with any wounds from the weapon. At BS 10 it is a guaranteed kill.

henchmen can have storm ravens which come with mindstrike missiles which automatically causes a oprils of the warp to any psykers hit. Considering it is a blast weapon that is a lot of perils that could happen.

Null rods- power weapons that inflict instant death on psykers

Well, it depends on what type of GK, since they all play differently and thus require different reaponses, since an interceptor list will play differently to say a draigowing for example.

 Krellnus wrote:
Well, it depends on what type of GK, since they all play differently and thus require different reaponses, since an interceptor list will play differently to say a draigowing for example.

I mean in the sense that henchen can take some very nasty anti-psyker weapons and all GK are psykers so they will be heavily affected.

Well, their best anti-psyker weapon, the condemnor boltgun, sort of fails against brotherhood of psyker units since it only hurts the leader of the unit, which is meh.

The psyocculum is nice, but even though it is BB with most armies, its a tad expensive for a TAC list.

Eh....honestly I don't think henchmen would necessarily be the best army because GK MEQ/TEQ armies in general have an even smaller model count than other MEQ/TEQ armies given their "elite of the elite" status/pricing so I think horde armies like Imperial Guard with a sufficient number of infantrysupported by Artillery/Leman Russes or Ork Battlewagon Rush lists would be more effective given their overwhelming amount of firepower and model count being too much for GK to handle.

Hell, just look at the top lists right now from Wave Serpent Spam Eldar with Wraithknights and Tau armies with Triple Riptides with Markerlight support. Those guys will more often than not simply wipe out entire GK units in a turn with the sheer amount of cover-ignoring damage and all of them being able to do so outside of the sweet-spot range of most GK 24" weapons.

 Grimskul wrote:
Eh....honestly I don't think henchmen would necessarily be the best army because GK MEQ/TEQ armies in general have an even smaller model count than other MEQ/TEQ armies given their "elite of the elite" status/pricing so I think horde armies like Imperial Guard with a sufficient number of infantrysupported by Artillery/Leman Russes or Ork Battlewagon Rush lists would be more effective given their overwhelming amount of firepower and model count being too much for GK to handle.

Hell, just look at the top lists right now from Wave Serpent Spam Eldar with Wraithknights and Tau armies with Triple Riptides with Markerlight support. Those guys will more often than not simply wipe out entire GK units in a turn with the sheer amount of cover-ignoring damage and all of them being able to do so outside of the sweet-spot range of most GK 24" weapons.

I once played against a Tau army using my death company army. It was a 2000 point game and he had 2 riptides. I killed most of his army and all he had left was 1 riptide on 2 wounds, some kroot and a unit of troops. I lost the game but on my way home I realised that I had miscounted the points of my army and I had only brought 1500 pts of death company to a 2000 point game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krellnus wrote:
Well, their best anti-psyker weapon, the condemnor boltgun, sort of fails against brotherhood of psyker units since it only hurts the leader of the unit, which is meh.

The psyocculum is nice, but even though it is BB with most armies, its a tad expensive for a TAC list.

I am confused does the condemnor only hurt the leader? I thought all GK's were psykers so it would force whoever was hit to get a perils.
what do you mean the psyocculum is BB? and what is a TAC list?

The brotherhood of psykers rule means that a perils is inflicted on the squad leader...and once he has died it will the be applied to a single randomly selected model thereafter...

It's why I had to buy a d12

 ductvader wrote:
The brotherhood of psykers rule means that a perils is inflicted on the squad leader...and once he has died it will the be applied to a single randomly selected model thereafter...

It's why I had to buy a d12

well that makes iot even better as you insta kill the squad leader by just hitting them with the condemnor boltgun and then kill a random guy every other hit.

But I refuse to buy a d12 so I will not use that weapon.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
The brotherhood of psykers rule means that a perils is inflicted on the squad leader...and once he has died it will the be applied to a single randomly selected model thereafter...

It's why I had to buy a d12

well that makes iot even better as you insta kill the squad leader by just hitting them with the condemnor boltgun and then kill a random guy every other hit.

But I refuse to buy a d12 so I will not use that weapon.

Okay...



Well...the best counter to GKs is to not get within 24".

We own the 24" danger zones.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Eh....honestly I don't think henchmen would necessarily be the best army because GK MEQ/TEQ armies in general have an even smaller model count than other MEQ/TEQ armies given their "elite of the elite" status/pricing so I think horde armies like Imperial Guard with a sufficient number of infantrysupported by Artillery/Leman Russes or Ork Battlewagon Rush lists would be more effective given their overwhelming amount of firepower and model count being too much for GK to handle.

Hell, just look at the top lists right now from Wave Serpent Spam Eldar with Wraithknights and Tau armies with Triple Riptides with Markerlight support. Those guys will more often than not simply wipe out entire GK units in a turn with the sheer amount of cover-ignoring damage and all of them being able to do so outside of the sweet-spot range of most GK 24" weapons.

I once played against a Tau army using my death company army. It was a 2000 point game and he had 2 riptides. I killed most of his army and all he had left was 1 riptide on 2 wounds, some kroot and a unit of troops. I lost the game but on my way home I realised that I had miscounted the points of my army and I had only brought 1500 pts of death company to a 2000 point game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krellnus wrote:
Well, their best anti-psyker weapon, the condemnor boltgun, sort of fails against brotherhood of psyker units since it only hurts the leader of the unit, which is meh.

The psyocculum is nice, but even though it is BB with most armies, its a tad expensive for a TAC list.

I am confused does the condemnor only hurt the leader? I thought all GK's were psykers so it would force whoever was hit to get a perils.
what do you mean the psyocculum is BB? and what is a TAC list?

Uh....I don't see how this applies as:

1. You were using Blood Angels not Grey Knights. 2 different armies.

2. Saying your opponent had 2 riptides (not the 3 like I said) and not telling the rest of the army's composition is really critical given that the Tau army runs a lot on synergy. If those riptides weren't well supported or if the Tau player didn't know how to use them (which I would be surprised since all he would have to do is put each one in a corner and blast your death company with FNP-ignoring S8 templates with potential ignore cover if he included pathfinders/markerlights like I mentioned previously) is not a good sign of it being crappy against Blood Angels, much less Grey Knights given that Grey Knights won't have as much or is likely to have even less models. Tau have really long range weaponry that Grey Knights will struggle to match with their limited 24" weaponry. Anecdotal evidence like this is also insufficient as an argument against Tau given that you could be just making this up.

3. You didn't seem to recognize or acknowledge my proposal of Eldar and Wave Serpent Spam. Not only is it 60" range (good luck competing with that) but they are fast skimmers meaning it will be incredibly hard to catch them with Dreadknights or any other unit in melee. Mix in the fact that Eldar shuriken pseudo-rending via Bladestorm is even more deadly against GK than conventional MEQ due to your low model count and relative lack of durability and your looking at a losing proposition. Eldar also have access to a plethora of psykers that can help shut down some of their psychic powers.

On that end Tyranids could do very well against Grey Knights since the Shadow in the Warp makes Grey Knights Ld6, not just for psychic tests, but also morale, pinning...etc. Good luck activating force weapons with that handicap. Throw in Deathleaper for another D3 Ld off your Grand Master or Librarian and I could see a lot of shenanigans from being pinned via Biovore barrages or The Horror psychic power from the Broodlord. This is also without taking into factors the amount of AP2 Tyranids can pop out with an Exocrine or Mawlocs popping out beneath you.

champagne_socialist wrote:
I am confused does the condemnor only hurt the leader? I thought all GK's were psykers so it would force whoever was hit to get a perils.
what do you mean the psyocculum is BB? and what is a TAC list?

The Brotherhood of Psykers rule means that any abilities targetting the unit count as only effecting the unit's sergeant, or, if he is dead one randomly determined model in the unit, keep in mind though, the BoP rule does not protect IC psyekrs in the unit.

BB = Battle Brothers allies, most armies in the game are Imperial and thus have access to Codex: Inquistion as battle brothers allies.

TAC = Take All Comers, a list designed to adequatley deal with many types of threats whilst not excelling at one or being overwhelmed by another.

 Grimskul wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Eh....honestly I don't think henchmen would necessarily be the best army because GK MEQ/TEQ armies in general have an even smaller model count than other MEQ/TEQ armies given their "elite of the elite" status/pricing so I think horde armies like Imperial Guard with a sufficient number of infantrysupported by Artillery/Leman Russes or Ork Battlewagon Rush lists would be more effective given their overwhelming amount of firepower and model count being too much for GK to handle.

Hell, just look at the top lists right now from Wave Serpent Spam Eldar with Wraithknights and Tau armies with Triple Riptides with Markerlight support. Those guys will more often than not simply wipe out entire GK units in a turn with the sheer amount of cover-ignoring damage and all of them being able to do so outside of the sweet-spot range of most GK 24" weapons.

I once played against a Tau army using my death company army. It was a 2000 point game and he had 2 riptides. I killed most of his army and all he had left was 1 riptide on 2 wounds, some kroot and a unit of troops. I lost the game but on my way home I realised that I had miscounted the points of my army and I had only brought 1500 pts of death company to a 2000 point game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krellnus wrote:
Well, their best anti-psyker weapon, the condemnor boltgun, sort of fails against brotherhood of psyker units since it only hurts the leader of the unit, which is meh.

The psyocculum is nice, but even though it is BB with most armies, its a tad expensive for a TAC list.

I am confused does the condemnor only hurt the leader? I thought all GK's were psykers so it would force whoever was hit to get a perils.
what do you mean the psyocculum is BB? and what is a TAC list?

Uh....I don't see how this applies as:

1. You were using Blood Angels not Grey Knights. 2 different armies.

2. Saying your opponent had 2 riptides (not the 3 like I said) and not telling the rest of the army's composition is really critical given that the Tau army runs a lot on synergy. If those riptides weren't well supported or if the Tau player didn't know how to use them (which I would be surprised since all he would have to do is put each one in a corner and blast your death company with FNP-ignoring S8 templates with potential ignore cover if he included pathfinders/markerlights like I mentioned previously) is not a good sign of it being crappy against Blood Angels, much less Grey Knights given that Grey Knights won't have as much or is likely to have even less models. Tau have really long range weaponry that Grey Knights will struggle to match with their limited 24" weaponry. Anecdotal evidence like this is also insufficient as an argument against Tau given that you could be just making this up.

3. You didn't seem to recognize or acknowledge my proposal of Eldar and Wave Serpent Spam. Not only is it 60" range (good luck competing with that) but they are fast skimmers meaning it will be incredibly hard to catch them with Dreadknights or any other unit in melee. Mix in the fact that Eldar shuriken pseudo-rending via Bladestorm is even more deadly against GK than conventional MEQ due to your low model count and relative lack of durability and your looking at a losing proposition. Eldar also have access to a plethora of psykers that can help shut down some of their psychic powers.

On that end Tyranids could do very well against Grey Knights since the Shadow in the Warp makes Grey Knights Ld6, not just for psychic tests, but also morale, pinning...etc. Good luck activating force weapons with that handicap. Throw in Deathleaper for another D3 Ld off your Grand Master or Librarian and I could see a lot of shenanigans from being pinned via Biovore barrages or The Horror psychic power from the Broodlord. This is also without taking into factors the amount of AP2 Tyranids can pop out with an Exocrine or Mawlocs popping out beneath you.

why are you taalking about eldar and tryanids?

As you brought up wave serpents if I was a gk player I would use the dreadknight to shunt near it and just shoot it to bits and the interceptors can do the same and shoot it with psycannons, I don't play GK so I never really gave it much thought.

he has 2 riptides on either side of his deployment, a tank with that big gunsome kroot in skimmers, kroot who had snipers, the squad of 5 suits, fire warriors, and some other tanks.

The best army to wipe GK is probably Iyanden; you've got access to mass quantities of AP2 template weapons and the Grey Knights have to get close enough for you to use them since they're a short-ranged army.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The best army to wipe GK is probably Iyanden; you've got access to mass quantities of AP2 template weapons and the Grey Knights have to get close enough for you to use them since they're a short-ranged army.

Massed s5 would make a mess of iyanden...I can tell you as an avid and long standing GK player that the worst matchup for us is de venom spam...sure...we can knock down the boats when they come close...but all that poison kills us like it does a normal marine...and we have about two thirds their number.

You win by drowning us...drown us in bodies or shots and we go down...chimera/Russ guard is another tough game...you try going elitist and we will out-elite you.

 ductvader wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The best army to wipe GK is probably Iyanden; you've got access to mass quantities of AP2 template weapons and the Grey Knights have to get close enough for you to use them since they're a short-ranged army.

Massed s5 would make a mess of iyanden...I can tell you as an avid and long standing GK player that the worst matchup for us is de venom spam...sure...we can knock down the boats when they come close...but all that poison kills us like it does a normal marine...and we have about two thirds their number.

You win by drowning us...drown us in bodies or shots and we go down...chimera/Russ guard is another tough game...you try going elitist and we will out-elite you.

I could beat GK by just using death cult assassins and crusadors in storm ravens and beating them in combat.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Eh....honestly I don't think henchmen would necessarily be the best army because GK MEQ/TEQ armies in general have an even smaller model count than other MEQ/TEQ armies given their "elite of the elite" status/pricing so I think horde armies like Imperial Guard with a sufficient number of infantrysupported by Artillery/Leman Russes or Ork Battlewagon Rush lists would be more effective given their overwhelming amount of firepower and model count being too much for GK to handle.

Hell, just look at the top lists right now from Wave Serpent Spam Eldar with Wraithknights and Tau armies with Triple Riptides with Markerlight support. Those guys will more often than not simply wipe out entire GK units in a turn with the sheer amount of cover-ignoring damage and all of them being able to do so outside of the sweet-spot range of most GK 24" weapons.

I once played against a Tau army using my death company army. It was a 2000 point game and he had 2 riptides. I killed most of his army and all he had left was 1 riptide on 2 wounds, some kroot and a unit of troops. I lost the game but on my way home I realised that I had miscounted the points of my army and I had only brought 1500 pts of death company to a 2000 point game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krellnus wrote:
Well, their best anti-psyker weapon, the condemnor boltgun, sort of fails against brotherhood of psyker units since it only hurts the leader of the unit, which is meh.

The psyocculum is nice, but even though it is BB with most armies, its a tad expensive for a TAC list.

I am confused does the condemnor only hurt the leader? I thought all GK's were psykers so it would force whoever was hit to get a perils.
what do you mean the psyocculum is BB? and what is a TAC list?

Uh....I don't see how this applies as:

1. You were using Blood Angels not Grey Knights. 2 different armies.

2. Saying your opponent had 2 riptides (not the 3 like I said) and not telling the rest of the army's composition is really critical given that the Tau army runs a lot on synergy. If those riptides weren't well supported or if the Tau player didn't know how to use them (which I would be surprised since all he would have to do is put each one in a corner and blast your death company with FNP-ignoring S8 templates with potential ignore cover if he included pathfinders/markerlights like I mentioned previously) is not a good sign of it being crappy against Blood Angels, much less Grey Knights given that Grey Knights won't have as much or is likely to have even less models. Tau have really long range weaponry that Grey Knights will struggle to match with their limited 24" weaponry. Anecdotal evidence like this is also insufficient as an argument against Tau given that you could be just making this up.

3. You didn't seem to recognize or acknowledge my proposal of Eldar and Wave Serpent Spam. Not only is it 60" range (good luck competing with that) but they are fast skimmers meaning it will be incredibly hard to catch them with Dreadknights or any other unit in melee. Mix in the fact that Eldar shuriken pseudo-rending via Bladestorm is even more deadly against GK than conventional MEQ due to your low model count and relative lack of durability and your looking at a losing proposition. Eldar also have access to a plethora of psykers that can help shut down some of their psychic powers.

On that end Tyranids could do very well against Grey Knights since the Shadow in the Warp makes Grey Knights Ld6, not just for psychic tests, but also morale, pinning...etc. Good luck activating force weapons with that handicap. Throw in Deathleaper for another D3 Ld off your Grand Master or Librarian and I could see a lot of shenanigans from being pinned via Biovore barrages or The Horror psychic power from the Broodlord. This is also without taking into factors the amount of AP2 Tyranids can pop out with an Exocrine or Mawlocs popping out beneath you.

why are you taalking about eldar and tryanids?

As you brought up wave serpents if I was a gk player I would use the dreadknight to shunt near it and just shoot it to bits and the interceptors can do the same and shoot it with psycannons, I don't play GK so I never really gave it much thought.

he has 2 riptides on either side of his deployment, a tank with that big gunsome kroot in skimmers, kroot who had snipers, the squad of 5 suits, fire warriors, and some other tanks.

I'm talking about eldar and tyranids because you were asking if GK henchmen were the best army to take out GK, which they really aren't. Both eldar and tyranids have plenty of more effective TAC methods to handle GK without list-tailoring and are even more effective when they are, were you not paying attention as to how I explained they able to overwhelm GK armies with both quantity and quality of firepower?

Also Dreadknights have very limited anti-vehicle ranged capabilities, even with the heavy incinerator you can at most glance it (S6 vs AV12 is pretty crappy) and if you somehow manage to pen it from its rear armour the Eldar player is doing it terribly, terribly wrong. Also don't forget when he shunts he can't assault so he's a sitting duck waiting for him to get shot to pieces in the middle of an Eldar army largely unsupported. Also Wave Serpents almost always perpetually have a 4+ cover save thanks to Jink and their Holo-Fields so any damage that do get through will be halved AND potentially reduced to mere glancing hits if the Serpent Shield is on. So good luck with trying to dakka them down with interceptors as well.

 Grimskul wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Eh....honestly I don't think henchmen would necessarily be the best army because GK MEQ/TEQ armies in general have an even smaller model count than other MEQ/TEQ armies given their "elite of the elite" status/pricing so I think horde armies like Imperial Guard with a sufficient number of infantrysupported by Artillery/Leman Russes or Ork Battlewagon Rush lists would be more effective given their overwhelming amount of firepower and model count being too much for GK to handle.

Hell, just look at the top lists right now from Wave Serpent Spam Eldar with Wraithknights and Tau armies with Triple Riptides with Markerlight support. Those guys will more often than not simply wipe out entire GK units in a turn with the sheer amount of cover-ignoring damage and all of them being able to do so outside of the sweet-spot range of most GK 24" weapons.

I once played against a Tau army using my death company army. It was a 2000 point game and he had 2 riptides. I killed most of his army and all he had left was 1 riptide on 2 wounds, some kroot and a unit of troops. I lost the game but on my way home I realised that I had miscounted the points of my army and I had only brought 1500 pts of death company to a 2000 point game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krellnus wrote:
Well, their best anti-psyker weapon, the condemnor boltgun, sort of fails against brotherhood of psyker units since it only hurts the leader of the unit, which is meh.

The psyocculum is nice, but even though it is BB with most armies, its a tad expensive for a TAC list.

I am confused does the condemnor only hurt the leader? I thought all GK's were psykers so it would force whoever was hit to get a perils.
what do you mean the psyocculum is BB? and what is a TAC list?

Uh....I don't see how this applies as:

1. You were using Blood Angels not Grey Knights. 2 different armies.

2. Saying your opponent had 2 riptides (not the 3 like I said) and not telling the rest of the army's composition is really critical given that the Tau army runs a lot on synergy. If those riptides weren't well supported or if the Tau player didn't know how to use them (which I would be surprised since all he would have to do is put each one in a corner and blast your death company with FNP-ignoring S8 templates with potential ignore cover if he included pathfinders/markerlights like I mentioned previously) is not a good sign of it being crappy against Blood Angels, much less Grey Knights given that Grey Knights won't have as much or is likely to have even less models. Tau have really long range weaponry that Grey Knights will struggle to match with their limited 24" weaponry. Anecdotal evidence like this is also insufficient as an argument against Tau given that you could be just making this up.

3. You didn't seem to recognize or acknowledge my proposal of Eldar and Wave Serpent Spam. Not only is it 60" range (good luck competing with that) but they are fast skimmers meaning it will be incredibly hard to catch them with Dreadknights or any other unit in melee. Mix in the fact that Eldar shuriken pseudo-rending via Bladestorm is even more deadly against GK than conventional MEQ due to your low model count and relative lack of durability and your looking at a losing proposition. Eldar also have access to a plethora of psykers that can help shut down some of their psychic powers.

On that end Tyranids could do very well against Grey Knights since the Shadow in the Warp makes Grey Knights Ld6, not just for psychic tests, but also morale, pinning...etc. Good luck activating force weapons with that handicap. Throw in Deathleaper for another D3 Ld off your Grand Master or Librarian and I could see a lot of shenanigans from being pinned via Biovore barrages or The Horror psychic power from the Broodlord. This is also without taking into factors the amount of AP2 Tyranids can pop out with an Exocrine or Mawlocs popping out beneath you.

why are you taalking about eldar and tryanids?

As you brought up wave serpents if I was a gk player I would use the dreadknight to shunt near it and just shoot it to bits and the interceptors can do the same and shoot it with psycannons, I don't play GK so I never really gave it much thought.

he has 2 riptides on either side of his deployment, a tank with that big gunsome kroot in skimmers, kroot who had snipers, the squad of 5 suits, fire warriors, and some other tanks.

I'm talking about eldar and tyranids because you were asking if GK henchmen were the best army to take out GK, which they really aren't. Both eldar and tyranids have plenty of more effective TAC methods to handle GK without list-tailoring and are even more effective when they are, were you not paying attention as to how I explained they able to overwhelm GK armies with both quantity and quality of firepower?

Also Dreadknights have very limited anti-vehicle ranged capabilities, even with the heavy incinerator you can at most glance it (S6 vs AV12 is pretty crappy) and if you somehow manage to pen it from its rear armour the Eldar player is doing it terribly, terribly wrong. Also don't forget when he shunts he can't assault so he's a sitting duck waiting for him to get shot to pieces in the middle of an Eldar army largely unsupported. Also Wave Serpents almost always perpetually have a 4+ cover save thanks to Jink and their Holo-Fields so any damage that do get through will be halved AND potentially reduced to mere glancing hits if the Serpent Shield is on. So good luck with trying to dakka them down with interceptors as well.

The problem with your arguments is that every battle is different, you can't say a shnut would leave the dreadknight in the middle of the battle to be shot by everything because you could have 3 dreadknights shunting and multiple inceptor squads shunting with psycannons etc etc. Also who cares if the wave serpeant can move 1000 inches, the boards in a 1 on 1 are not that big (not in the games I play they are standard size) so he should never fully be out of range.

If I was a GK player I would take techmarines and inquisitors with conversion beamers (6 conversion beamers) 72 inch range ap 1 str 10 blast.

But I believe henchmen are the best army to take out gk because i can swarm the gk because henchmen are so cheap, I can have 3 plasma cannons and 3 plasma guns in every squad and the inquisitors can take wargear that is anti-psyker that can ruin GKs.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Eh....honestly I don't think henchmen would necessarily be the best army because GK MEQ/TEQ armies in general have an even smaller model count than other MEQ/TEQ armies given their "elite of the elite" status/pricing so I think horde armies like Imperial Guard with a sufficient number of infantrysupported by Artillery/Leman Russes or Ork Battlewagon Rush lists would be more effective given their overwhelming amount of firepower and model count being too much for GK to handle.

Hell, just look at the top lists right now from Wave Serpent Spam Eldar with Wraithknights and Tau armies with Triple Riptides with Markerlight support. Those guys will more often than not simply wipe out entire GK units in a turn with the sheer amount of cover-ignoring damage and all of them being able to do so outside of the sweet-spot range of most GK 24" weapons.

I once played against a Tau army using my death company army. It was a 2000 point game and he had 2 riptides. I killed most of his army and all he had left was 1 riptide on 2 wounds, some kroot and a unit of troops. I lost the game but on my way home I realised that I had miscounted the points of my army and I had only brought 1500 pts of death company to a 2000 point game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krellnus wrote:
Well, their best anti-psyker weapon, the condemnor boltgun, sort of fails against brotherhood of psyker units since it only hurts the leader of the unit, which is meh.

The psyocculum is nice, but even though it is BB with most armies, its a tad expensive for a TAC list.

I am confused does the condemnor only hurt the leader? I thought all GK's were psykers so it would force whoever was hit to get a perils.
what do you mean the psyocculum is BB? and what is a TAC list?

Uh....I don't see how this applies as:

1. You were using Blood Angels not Grey Knights. 2 different armies.

2. Saying your opponent had 2 riptides (not the 3 like I said) and not telling the rest of the army's composition is really critical given that the Tau army runs a lot on synergy. If those riptides weren't well supported or if the Tau player didn't know how to use them (which I would be surprised since all he would have to do is put each one in a corner and blast your death company with FNP-ignoring S8 templates with potential ignore cover if he included pathfinders/markerlights like I mentioned previously) is not a good sign of it being crappy against Blood Angels, much less Grey Knights given that Grey Knights won't have as much or is likely to have even less models. Tau have really long range weaponry that Grey Knights will struggle to match with their limited 24" weaponry. Anecdotal evidence like this is also insufficient as an argument against Tau given that you could be just making this up.

3. You didn't seem to recognize or acknowledge my proposal of Eldar and Wave Serpent Spam. Not only is it 60" range (good luck competing with that) but they are fast skimmers meaning it will be incredibly hard to catch them with Dreadknights or any other unit in melee. Mix in the fact that Eldar shuriken pseudo-rending via Bladestorm is even more deadly against GK than conventional MEQ due to your low model count and relative lack of durability and your looking at a losing proposition. Eldar also have access to a plethora of psykers that can help shut down some of their psychic powers.

On that end Tyranids could do very well against Grey Knights since the Shadow in the Warp makes Grey Knights Ld6, not just for psychic tests, but also morale, pinning...etc. Good luck activating force weapons with that handicap. Throw in Deathleaper for another D3 Ld off your Grand Master or Librarian and I could see a lot of shenanigans from being pinned via Biovore barrages or The Horror psychic power from the Broodlord. This is also without taking into factors the amount of AP2 Tyranids can pop out with an Exocrine or Mawlocs popping out beneath you.

why are you taalking about eldar and tryanids?

As you brought up wave serpents if I was a gk player I would use the dreadknight to shunt near it and just shoot it to bits and the interceptors can do the same and shoot it with psycannons, I don't play GK so I never really gave it much thought.

he has 2 riptides on either side of his deployment, a tank with that big gunsome kroot in skimmers, kroot who had snipers, the squad of 5 suits, fire warriors, and some other tanks.

I'm talking about eldar and tyranids because you were asking if GK henchmen were the best army to take out GK, which they really aren't. Both eldar and tyranids have plenty of more effective TAC methods to handle GK without list-tailoring and are even more effective when they are, were you not paying attention as to how I explained they able to overwhelm GK armies with both quantity and quality of firepower?

Also Dreadknights have very limited anti-vehicle ranged capabilities, even with the heavy incinerator you can at most glance it (S6 vs AV12 is pretty crappy) and if you somehow manage to pen it from its rear armour the Eldar player is doing it terribly, terribly wrong. Also don't forget when he shunts he can't assault so he's a sitting duck waiting for him to get shot to pieces in the middle of an Eldar army largely unsupported. Also Wave Serpents almost always perpetually have a 4+ cover save thanks to Jink and their Holo-Fields so any damage that do get through will be halved AND potentially reduced to mere glancing hits if the Serpent Shield is on. So good luck with trying to dakka them down with interceptors as well.

The problem with your arguments is that every battle is different, you can't say a shnut would leave the dreadknight in the middle of the battle to be shot by everything because you could have 3 dreadknights shunting and multiple inceptor squads shunting with psycannons etc etc. Also who cares if the wave serpeant can move 1000 inches, the boards in a 1 on 1 are not that big (not in the games I play they are standard size) so he should never fully be out of range.

If I was a GK player I would take techmarines and inquisitors with conversion beamers (6 conversion beamers) 72 inch range ap 1 str 10 blast.

But I believe henchmen are the best army to take out gk because i can swarm the gk because henchmen are so cheap, I can have 3 plasma cannons and 3 plasma guns in every squad and the inquisitors can take wargear that is anti-psyker that can ruin GKs.

By that logic, since you say "every battle is different", it would mean that your henchmen army would always be dead before they get to shoot because the 3 Dreadknights would shunt, Interceptors would shoot open your transports and the heavy incinerators would flambé their charred innards. And no putting them in stormravens wouldn't matter because you'd still have to have at least 50% of your henchmen army on the field which means they would be wiped out promptly before they can even arrive and therefore thanks to your "every battle is different" argument your oh so potent henchmen army would lose many times despite their your claims of efficiency and deadliness towards GK.

Even the idea you posted about shunting everyone forwards does not change the fact that their psycannons, I repeat, cannot ignore either the Serpent Shields OR their cover saves. S7 vs AV12 isn't that effective which you can only shoot 2 per wielder because you're moving with shunting meaning you at max have about maybe 6-8 psycannon shots...not nearly enough to handle 4+ Wave Serpents nor their Wraithknights. Again you CAN'T assault the turn you shunt so you're essentially handing your army on a silver platter for some ridiculous return fire and they are mobile enough to move away the next turn, where most of your units will be either dead or severely depleted/wounded.

Also your conversion beamer idea is very flawed because you do realize that most tables won't be played where you can fight at ranges of 72" right? Like you said already with your talk of shunting Dreadknights the board can only be so big and this means that you have at most maybe 2 turns of S10 AP1 small blast that DOESN'T ignore cover. For faster armies like Battlewagon Orks or hell Drop Pod marine armies you'll quickly be devolving to fighting with S6 AP- blasts which can still scatter. Your techmarines and inquisitors will then be promptly engaged in combat which means very little mileage for the price you pay. Why do think conversion beamers aren't the most talked about weapon in town compared to Ion Accelerators from Tau or Serpent Shields from Eldar? It's not consistent nor damaging enough for what you get, especially since you have to stay still to use it unlike the other two.

I'm sorry but the fact that you admitted you don't play Grey Knights nor are familiar with their playstyle already puts you in a significant disadvantage in your position that you are trying to argue for since you clearly don't have the experience to tell why the armies I'm telling you about can and will wipe the floor with many MEQ/TEQ builds.

Shunting gks can ignore the serpent shield...there's no shield on rear armor...and shunting incinerators can ignore the shield and the cover save.

And unless a wraith knight has a sun cannon...it doesn't scare gks.

Interceptors can also combat squad to split their efforts.

I play mechdar and gks...it's actually one of the more fair meq matchups.

 ductvader wrote:
Shunting gks can ignore the serpent shield...there's no shield on rear armor...and shunting incinerators can ignore the shield and the cover save.

And unless a wraith knight has a sun cannon...it doesn't scare gks.

Interceptors can also combat squad to split their efforts.

I play mechdar and gks...it's actually one of the more fair meq matchups.

Again, if the Eldar Player knows what they're doing and sets up their Wave Serpents' rears against the back of the board (at least in the beginning) it doesn't matter how far you shunt, if we're playing on a normal sized table there's no way for them to get an angle on the back of the serpent. With a 60" range Serpents can afford to stay back and blast away at units of Grey Knights.

Even in the case where they do get lucky this is hardly a solution to handling 4+ Wave Serpents. You have a best S6 against AV10, meaning you need 5's to pen and 4's to glance. I wouldn't consider that a very viable method of anti-tank weaponry given that you need to roll a lot of 6's to make them explode. And this is against potentially 4-6 Wave Serpents, all with scoring units. You only have so many dreadknights and interceptors, and with all those points invested in them the rest of the GK army composition in troops will be minimal most of the time which the Eldar can exploit by focus firing them to death. Even with a Grand Master's Grand Strategy it is unreliable since you have to roll a D3 to see how many of other units are scoring.

Also Wraithknights with Heavy Wraithcannons are no joke, especially not to dreadknights. Look at Jy2's battle report of an Eldar list against Tyranids, over the course of the game they take a definite toll against MC. And if they roll a 6 to wound those Dreadknights better hope they pass their measly 5++ save or otherwise they suffer an instant-death *poof* into the warp. Don't forget they are easily capable of charging against weakened squads, they have 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge which is nothing to sniff at given that without hammerhand GK squads can't even wound them in combat.

Gks always have a hammer...and any Eldar player with 4 serpents just shooting shields is only killing about 3 pagks a turn...with all that "firepower"

No matter what you say...dark Eldar kills knights better...as does guard...but henchmen are definitely not the answer.

 ductvader wrote:
Gks always have a hammer...and any Eldar player with 4 serpents just shooting shields is only killing about 3 pagks a turn...with all that "firepower"

No matter what you say...dark Eldar kills knights better...as does guard...but henchmen are definitely not the answer.

...I already addressed the issue of attempting to attack a Wave Serpent in CC. After shunting you can't assault and Wave Serpents as fast skimmers can easily lead around interceptors and dreadknights around with their mobility and upgrades like Star Engines should the need arise. I also think you're underestimating the amount of damage each serpent can put out in addition to their cargo as not only is it pinning but most wave serpents are accompanied by the scatter laser which allows them four additional high strength shots that also gives the serpent shield+other guns to re-roll failed rolls to hit. That's a whole lot of reliable hitting dakka. Again don't forget the shuriken weaponry used in conjunction with this.

Regardless, I'm just arguing that GK TEQ/MEQ armies aren't that hard to handle in 6th edition and I agree that horde armies like IG and Orks or very precise armies like Dark Eldar can easily swamp them in wounds or numbers much better than using something as dubious as a henchmen centred army.

I calculated the exact damage you said you'd be outputting...4 serpent shields would only kill 3 marines...and you can't argue that the shields are being shot and are up at the same time. And if you want to factor in scatter lasers you have to come closer...and let's not forget that terrain exists.

In general...meq isn't hard to handle...but gks are a whole different animal than codex:marines...for instance...most every single unit can choose to deepstrike if need be.

Eldar is strong yes...but it isn't a power build against grey knights...

I am not underestimating serpent damage...I run three of this kind in all of my Eldar lists...

For the purposes of ending this thread...no, henchmen are not the best way to handle gks...and neither is Eldar.

 ductvader wrote:
I calculated the exact damage you said you'd be outputting...4 serpent shields would only kill 3 marines...and you can't argue that the shields are being shot and are up at the same time. And if you want to factor in scatter lasers you have to come closer...and let's not forget that terrain exists.

In general...meq isn't hard to handle...but gks are a whole different animal than codex:marines...for instance...most every single unit can choose to deepstrike if need be.

Eldar is strong yes...but it isn't a power build against grey knights...

I am not underestimating serpent damage...I run three of this kind in all of my Eldar lists...

For the purposes of ending this thread...no, henchmen are not the best way to handle gks...and neither is Eldar.

I thought that in this instance the shorter range of scatter lasers (36" isn't short-ranged) wouldn't matter that much given that we're assuming that the GK are shunting close enough to even use their weapons so they would be in range regardless. Did you also calculate the damage of massed shuriken weaponry in conjunction with the serpent shields? Pseudo-rending is dangerous enough that Dreadknights don't want to be in range of 2 units with it.

You gave me an impossible list of answers that appeared to coexist all at once...

Shields are up
Shields are being shot
Serpents are against the back edge
Serpents are within 36"
All serpents have shrikes cannons (highly unlikely)

And if this is all the case...I just sit back in my deployment zone or behind buildings and wait you out.

All I am saying is that you can't dictate what GKs will be doing or that all the right buffs are working for serpents all the time.

Your standard Eldar list will be fighting a fair fight against a good GK player.

It's best not to think of gks as playing like meq.

 ductvader wrote:
You gave me an impossible list of answers that appeared to coexist all at once...

Shields are up
Shields are being shot
Serpents are against the back edge
Serpents are within 36"
All serpents have shrikes cannons (highly unlikely)

And if this is all the case...I just sit back in my deployment zone or behind buildings and wait you out.

All I am saying is that you can't dictate what GKs will be doing or that all the right buffs are working for serpents all the time.

Your standard Eldar list will be fighting a fair fight against a good GK player.

It's best not to think of gks as playing like meq.

Sorry if it seems like I'm going all over the place but I never said that all of these conditions occur at the exact same time.

I was saying the shields would be set up as a defensive factor if the GK player went first and tried to alpha strike against the Eldar Player.

In the case where the Eldar go first they would use it offensively at range and use it to whittle down those within LOS.

In both these cases they could be set up against the back of the board depending on how terrain and objectives are put out.

Serpents being within range of 36", as I just mentioned, is not altogether unlikely given that at least one or two objectives will likely be placed within range of the Serpents. Also I used it specifically in the case where you talked about how Dreadknights and Interceptors were in range of using their hammers or incinerators, both of which are clearly within range of Scatter Laser attacks.

Also notice how I NEVER mentioned shuriken cannons on the Wave serpents. They all already have twin-linked shuriken catapults but what I was referring to was their obligatory cargo of either guardians or dire avengers. Both of which have ample access to lots of shuriken dakka. Wave Serpents aren't just on their own, they are transports after all.

Again I'm not saying the GK has no chance whatsoever against Eldar. All I am saying is that it would be an uphill battle for the GK and I think a TAC Eldar Wave Serpent list would be more effective compared to a list-tailored henchmen focused army with gimmicky anti-psyker weaponry.

 Grimskul wrote:
All I am saying is that it would be an uphill battle for the GK and I think a TAC Eldar Wave Serpent list would be more effective compared to a list-tailored henchmen focused army with gimmicky anti-psyker weaponry.

Agreed.

 Grimskul wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Eh....honestly I don't think henchmen would necessarily be the best army because GK MEQ/TEQ armies in general have an even smaller model count than other MEQ/TEQ armies given their "elite of the elite" status/pricing so I think horde armies like Imperial Guard with a sufficient number of infantrysupported by Artillery/Leman Russes or Ork Battlewagon Rush lists would be more effective given their overwhelming amount of firepower and model count being too much for GK to handle.

Hell, just look at the top lists right now from Wave Serpent Spam Eldar with Wraithknights and Tau armies with Triple Riptides with Markerlight support. Those guys will more often than not simply wipe out entire GK units in a turn with the sheer amount of cover-ignoring damage and all of them being able to do so outside of the sweet-spot range of most GK 24" weapons.

I once played against a Tau army using my death company army. It was a 2000 point game and he had 2 riptides. I killed most of his army and all he had left was 1 riptide on 2 wounds, some kroot and a unit of troops. I lost the game but on my way home I realised that I had miscounted the points of my army and I had only brought 1500 pts of death company to a 2000 point game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krellnus wrote:
Well, their best anti-psyker weapon, the condemnor boltgun, sort of fails against brotherhood of psyker units since it only hurts the leader of the unit, which is meh.

The psyocculum is nice, but even though it is BB with most armies, its a tad expensive for a TAC list.

I am confused does the condemnor only hurt the leader? I thought all GK's were psykers so it would force whoever was hit to get a perils.
what do you mean the psyocculum is BB? and what is a TAC list?

Uh....I don't see how this applies as:

1. You were using Blood Angels not Grey Knights. 2 different armies.

2. Saying your opponent had 2 riptides (not the 3 like I said) and not telling the rest of the army's composition is really critical given that the Tau army runs a lot on synergy. If those riptides weren't well supported or if the Tau player didn't know how to use them (which I would be surprised since all he would have to do is put each one in a corner and blast your death company with FNP-ignoring S8 templates with potential ignore cover if he included pathfinders/markerlights like I mentioned previously) is not a good sign of it being crappy against Blood Angels, much less Grey Knights given that Grey Knights won't have as much or is likely to have even less models. Tau have really long range weaponry that Grey Knights will struggle to match with their limited 24" weaponry. Anecdotal evidence like this is also insufficient as an argument against Tau given that you could be just making this up.

3. You didn't seem to recognize or acknowledge my proposal of Eldar and Wave Serpent Spam. Not only is it 60" range (good luck competing with that) but they are fast skimmers meaning it will be incredibly hard to catch them with Dreadknights or any other unit in melee. Mix in the fact that Eldar shuriken pseudo-rending via Bladestorm is even more deadly against GK than conventional MEQ due to your low model count and relative lack of durability and your looking at a losing proposition. Eldar also have access to a plethora of psykers that can help shut down some of their psychic powers.

On that end Tyranids could do very well against Grey Knights since the Shadow in the Warp makes Grey Knights Ld6, not just for psychic tests, but also morale, pinning...etc. Good luck activating force weapons with that handicap. Throw in Deathleaper for another D3 Ld off your Grand Master or Librarian and I could see a lot of shenanigans from being pinned via Biovore barrages or The Horror psychic power from the Broodlord. This is also without taking into factors the amount of AP2 Tyranids can pop out with an Exocrine or Mawlocs popping out beneath you.

why are you taalking about eldar and tryanids?

As you brought up wave serpents if I was a gk player I would use the dreadknight to shunt near it and just shoot it to bits and the interceptors can do the same and shoot it with psycannons, I don't play GK so I never really gave it much thought.

he has 2 riptides on either side of his deployment, a tank with that big gunsome kroot in skimmers, kroot who had snipers, the squad of 5 suits, fire warriors, and some other tanks.

I'm talking about eldar and tyranids because you were asking if GK henchmen were the best army to take out GK, which they really aren't. Both eldar and tyranids have plenty of more effective TAC methods to handle GK without list-tailoring and are even more effective when they are, were you not paying attention as to how I explained they able to overwhelm GK armies with both quantity and quality of firepower?

Also Dreadknights have very limited anti-vehicle ranged capabilities, even with the heavy incinerator you can at most glance it (S6 vs AV12 is pretty crappy) and if you somehow manage to pen it from its rear armour the Eldar player is doing it terribly, terribly wrong. Also don't forget when he shunts he can't assault so he's a sitting duck waiting for him to get shot to pieces in the middle of an Eldar army largely unsupported. Also Wave Serpents almost always perpetually have a 4+ cover save thanks to Jink and their Holo-Fields so any damage that do get through will be halved AND potentially reduced to mere glancing hits if the Serpent Shield is on. So good luck with trying to dakka them down with interceptors as well.

The problem with your arguments is that every battle is different, you can't say a shnut would leave the dreadknight in the middle of the battle to be shot by everything because you could have 3 dreadknights shunting and multiple inceptor squads shunting with psycannons etc etc. Also who cares if the wave serpeant can move 1000 inches, the boards in a 1 on 1 are not that big (not in the games I play they are standard size) so he should never fully be out of range.

If I was a GK player I would take techmarines and inquisitors with conversion beamers (6 conversion beamers) 72 inch range ap 1 str 10 blast.

But I believe henchmen are the best army to take out gk because i can swarm the gk because henchmen are so cheap, I can have 3 plasma cannons and 3 plasma guns in every squad and the inquisitors can take wargear that is anti-psyker that can ruin GKs.

By that logic, since you say "every battle is different", it would mean that your henchmen army would always be dead before they get to shoot because the 3 Dreadknights would shunt, Interceptors would shoot open your transports and the heavy incinerators would flambé their charred innards. And no putting them in stormravens wouldn't matter because you'd still have to have at least 50% of your henchmen army on the field which means they would be wiped out promptly before they can even arrive and therefore thanks to your "every battle is different" argument your oh so potent henchmen army would lose many times despite their your claims of efficiency and deadliness towards GK.

Even the idea you posted about shunting everyone forwards does not change the fact that their psycannons, I repeat, cannot ignore either the Serpent Shields OR their cover saves. S7 vs AV12 isn't that effective which you can only shoot 2 per wielder because you're moving with shunting meaning you at max have about maybe 6-8 psycannon shots...not nearly enough to handle 4+ Wave Serpents nor their Wraithknights. Again you CAN'T assault the turn you shunt so you're essentially handing your army on a silver platter for some ridiculous return fire and they are mobile enough to move away the next turn, where most of your units will be either dead or severely depleted/wounded.

Also your conversion beamer idea is very flawed because you do realize that most tables won't be played where you can fight at ranges of 72" right? Like you said already with your talk of shunting Dreadknights the board can only be so big and this means that you have at most maybe 2 turns of S10 AP1 small blast that DOESN'T ignore cover. For faster armies like Battlewagon Orks or hell Drop Pod marine armies you'll quickly be devolving to fighting with S6 AP- blasts which can still scatter. Your techmarines and inquisitors will then be promptly engaged in combat which means very little mileage for the price you pay. Why do think conversion beamers aren't the most talked about weapon in town compared to Ion Accelerators from Tau or Serpent Shields from Eldar? It's not consistent nor damaging enough for what you get, especially since you have to stay still to use it unlike the other two.

I'm sorry but the fact that you admitted you don't play Grey Knights nor are familiar with their playstyle already puts you in a significant disadvantage in your position that you are trying to argue for since you clearly don't have the experience to tell why the armies I'm telling you about can and will wipe the floor with many MEQ/TEQ builds.

but every battle is different, you can't just say that thios unit willdo this or do that and this unit can fire 60 inches etc etc, every battle is different. I can't be bothered to debate with you about tactics because that is purely hypothetical and not real life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
You gave me an impossible list of answers that appeared to coexist all at once...

Shields are up
Shields are being shot
Serpents are against the back edge
Serpents are within 36"
All serpents have shrikes cannons (highly unlikely)

And if this is all the case...I just sit back in my deployment zone or behind buildings and wait you out.

All I am saying is that you can't dictate what GKs will be doing or that all the right buffs are working for serpents all the time.

Your standard Eldar list will be fighting a fair fight against a good GK player.

It's best not to think of gks as playing like meq.

Sorry if it seems like I'm going all over the place but I never said that all of these conditions occur at the exact same time.

I was saying the shields would be set up as a defensive factor if the GK player went first and tried to alpha strike against the Eldar Player.

In the case where the Eldar go first they would use it offensively at range and use it to whittle down those within LOS.

In both these cases they could be set up against the back of the board depending on how terrain and objectives are put out.

Serpents being within range of 36", as I just mentioned, is not altogether unlikely given that at least one or two objectives will likely be placed within range of the Serpents. Also I used it specifically in the case where you talked about how Dreadknights and Interceptors were in range of using their hammers or incinerators, both of which are clearly within range of Scatter Laser attacks.

Also notice how I NEVER mentioned shuriken cannons on the Wave serpents. They all already have twin-linked shuriken catapults but what I was referring to was their obligatory cargo of either guardians or dire avengers. Both of which have ample access to lots of shuriken dakka. Wave Serpents aren't just on their own, they are transports after all.

Again I'm not saying the GK has no chance whatsoever against Eldar. All I am saying is that it would be an uphill battle for the GK and I think a TAC Eldar Wave Serpent list would be more effective compared to a list-tailored henchmen focused army with gimmicky anti-psyker weaponry.

I disagree, the henchmen list would have 3 plasma cannons and 3 plasma guns along with 3 lascannons in every squad (200 pts squad) along with an inquisitor with anti-psyker equipment so that whole squad is bs 10. It is a devestating combination and I can have that squad x 3 so 9 plasma cannons with no scatter 9 plasma guns, 9 lascannons. Along with units of psykers who for 40 points do a large str 6 ap 2 large blast. Then i can have death cult assassins who will be in storm ravens who will be used to as a counter strike unit.

but this whole hypothetical argument is piontless, every battle is different, who gets first turn, the scenery on the board, etc etc

I don't mean to be rude, but no, this hypothetical argument is not pointless and simply saying "every battle is different" does not make my points invalid or suddenly make your henchmen list-tailored army the best anti-GK list. You have failed to rebuttal my points individually and as a whole by simply "hand-waving" it away with the "every battle is different" supposition which you ironically don't realize would ALSO apply to your own henchmen list.

Your henchmen list is banking ONLY on two units that can potentially exploit the use of the psyccolum (since you can only have 2 HQ choices so only 2 squads would get the BS10 from said inquisitors). And you're forgetting about Gets Hot! for the plasma weaponry which will likely kill the henchman/servitor model wielding it unless you waste points to give them further survivability or the fact that all 3 weapon types have different ranges so you're unlikely to get the full firepower of all 3. It also doesn't ignore cover which the Grey Knights can hide behind. More importantly both the lascannons and plasma cannons require a good firing vantage point and are unable to shoot on the move. This lack of mobility can be easily exploited by the Grey Knights who can Deep Strike, shunt or outflank the unit which is very fragile by itself. Even just being shot by a depleted unit of Grey Knights would severely weaken the squad's damage output as with psybolt ammunition (which is almost guaranteed to be taken) you would be wounded on 2's and enough saves would be forced (or ignored) that the unit would lose most of its weaponry.

Also using Psykers is a terrible idea against GK. You have the Aegis making them take their Psychic tests at a -1 modifier meaning they have to pass it on a very mediocre Ld7. Then they have to get past the 4+ to 5+ deny the witch the Grey Knights have AND roll to see if you scatter AND roll to wound AND the Grey Knights likely get to roll their cover saves. There is a such a huge barrier against their effectiveness that you're better off taking a Leman Russ Demolisher through allies if you want a large AP2 blast template.

Seeing as how you're adamant in your position and unwilling to actually prove your side of the argument why bother posting in this thread? Did you expect showers of praise and sycophantic agreement? Judging from your previous behaviour in a previous thread of yours http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/580243.page
I would say next time to actually think ahead and be prepared for criticism and debate considering this a forum, particularly in the tactics section, and accept that you can be wrong in your assumptions. You won't win any friends with this sort of attitude.

 Grimskul wrote:
I don't mean to be rude, but no, this hypothetical argument is not pointless and simply saying "every battle is different" does not make my points invalid or suddenly make your henchmen list-tailored army the best anti-GK list. You have failed to rebuttal my points individually and as a whole by simply "hand-waving" it away with the "every battle is different" supposition which you ironically don't realize would ALSO apply to your own henchmen list.

Your henchmen list is banking ONLY on two units that can potentially exploit the use of the psyccolum (since you can only have 2 HQ choices so only 2 squads would get the BS10 from said inquisitors). And you're forgetting about Gets Hot! for the plasma weaponry which will likely kill the henchman/servitor model wielding it unless you waste points to give them further survivability or the fact that all 3 weapon types have different ranges so you're unlikely to get the full firepower of all 3. It also doesn't ignore cover which the Grey Knights can hide behind. More importantly both the lascannons and plasma cannons require a good firing vantage point and are unable to shoot on the move. This lack of mobility can be easily exploited by the Grey Knights who can Deep Strike, shunt or outflank the unit which is very fragile by itself. Even just being shot by a depleted unit of Grey Knights would severely weaken the squad's damage output as with psybolt ammunition (which is almost guaranteed to be taken) you would be wounded on 2's and enough saves would be forced (or ignored) that the unit would lose most of its weaponry.

Also using Psykers is a terrible idea against GK. You have the Aegis making them take their Psychic tests at a -1 modifier meaning they have to pass it on a very mediocre Ld7. Then they have to get past the 4+ to 5+ deny the witch the Grey Knights have AND roll to see if you scatter AND roll to wound AND the Grey Knights likely get to roll their cover saves. There is a such a huge barrier against their effectiveness that you're better off taking a Leman Russ Demolisher through allies if you want a large AP2 blast template.

Seeing as how you're adamant in your position and unwilling to actually prove your side of the argument why bother posting in this thread? Did you expect showers of praise and sycophantic agreement? Judging from your previous behaviour in a previous thread of yours http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/580243.page
I would say next time to actually think ahead and be prepared for criticism and debate considering this a forum, particularly in the tactics section, and accept that you can be wrong in your assumptions. You won't win any friends with this sort of attitude.

I have rebutted your arguments with the fact that I can plasma cannon spam with 15 plasma cannons in a 2000 point liost that DO NOT SCATTER. Then there would be 15 plasma guns that are all BS 10 and 15 lascannons all BS 10 and that is only the 5hq and their squad. I could then spam more plasma guns and psykers who will for 40 pooints give off a str 6 ap2 large blast.

You want to keep debating that is your choice but my opinion which will not change is that 15 plasma cannons that do not scatter and 15 plasma guns that are BS10 and 15 lascannons that are BS 10 all for only 1000 points will decimate GKs.

Also 3 units can have the psycocullum because I can have an inquisitor from codex inquisition join my army who can take the wargear. so that is 3 units in a 1 foc and 5 units in a 2x foc.

Anyone deep strikes wioth 12 inches of coteaz is going to get shot to pieces by his 'i been expecting you' rule.

I played against GK's on friday in a 2000 point game and I went 2nd yet I still tabled the guy halfway through my turn 3.