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I seriously felt bad after the game. I played a 1500 point flying circus list against some Orks. Fateweaver was grounded early because I was somewhat careless and left him to close, but I managed to get him Iron Arm and after being assaulted by some koptaz, I stuck the grimoire on him. He also had a unit of nobz come into the fight. In 3 turns of combat he lost 1 wound to a failed save and 1 wound to demonic instability. I could see the frustration in my opponents eyes. Fateweaver couldn't hurt them but it would have taken him however many turns to chew through that 2+.

This was my 4th game with my daemons, and still need to get better with them, I keep forgetting about vector strikes, but I am getting the hang of the book keeping and keeping up on the Warp Storm table. Seriously how do people play Daemons without Fateweaver?

As a side note, I was thinking about his list and I am not that familiar with Orks, how is it possible to have Nobz as troops? He had a squad of Mega Nobz a larger squad of regular nobz, a couple units of Koptaz and a few other odds and ends. It was the smallest model count Ork army I have ever seen.

Warbosses make a unit of Nobz/Mega-Nobz troops. And you could always try playing Slaanesh Daemons if you want to be more "fair" but still do decently. 2++ shenanigans are just the favourite combo.

Why didn't he just kill the bearer of the Grimoire?

Waaaghpower wrote:
Why didn't he just kill the bearer of the Grimoire?

Had a DP holding the book, and he didn't have the firepower to ground him and I never landed him. I rolled insanely well on my biomancy rolls, got Iron and Warp Speed on a different DP. I am also running Be'Lakor but again he didn't do a whole heck of a lot. I love the model, but 350 points is a lot of points. I didn't have the heart to use invisibility on the Iron Arm/Warp Speed prince, he decimated the unit of Meganobz.

That's why I draw the line at a normal 2+ invul, I want my opponent to have fun too.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
That's why I draw the line at a normal 2+ invul, I want my opponent to have fun too.

Daemons are not common in my area, so I was trying to offer advice on target priority. He did try grounding the DP with the book, and did manage to hit him a few times, but I passed every grounding test. I made sure to go over all of the daemon special rules, and he kept up quite well. I am sure that if he had it to do over he would not have charged that larger unit of nobz into the fateweaver combat and focused on taking out the other princes. I also think his list didnt do him any favors, if he had been running larger mobs or boys and at least a few lootaz I would have had a much harder time.

valace2 wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
That's why I draw the line at a normal 2+ invul, I want my opponent to have fun too.

Daemons are not common in my area, so I was trying to offer advice on target priority. He did try grounding the DP with the book, and did manage to hit him a few times, but I passed every grounding test. I made sure to go over all of the daemon special rules, and he kept up quite well. I am sure that if he had it to do over he would not have charged that larger unit of nobz into the fateweaver combat and focused on taking out the other princes. I also think his list didnt do him any favors, if he had been running larger mobs or boys and at least a few lootaz I would have had a much harder time.

Sorry, I did not mean to offend or mean it as a criticism towards you, I just was trying to offer an alternative if you feel bad about using that combo.

Belakor against Orks? Thats just nasty... Orks have zero psyker defense whatsoever, not as a built in weakness but just because our book is so ancient.

Bull crap. You didn't feel bad about anything. You knew exactly what list you were running and just how OP it was. You can lie to yourself, but don't expect me to believe you.

You tell the story like you were somehow the victim of your own gameplay. You knew full well Orks would have virtually no chance against your list and you could have adjusted it accordingly before the game, but didn't. Poor you.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Bull crap. You didn't feel bad about anything. You knew exactly what list you were running and just how OP it was. You can lie to yourself, but don't expect me to believe you.

You tell the story like you were somehow the victim of your own gameplay. You knew full well Orks would have virtually no chance against your list and you could have adjusted it accordingly before the game, but didn't. Poor you.

Most likely he utilized advice he heard on the internet, took it to the FLGS and played a guy who happened to be orks and realized how insanely powerful his combo actually was for the first time.

No reason to be belligerent toward the dude.

 SRSFACE wrote:


Most likely he utilized advice he heard on the internet, took it to the FLGS and played a guy who happened to be orks and realized how insanely powerful his combo actually was for the first time.

No reason to be belligerent toward the dude.

OP wrote...

Seriously how do people play Daemons without Fateweaver? ...

Had a DP holding the book...

I am also running Be'Lakor...

focused on taking out the other princes...

He didn't realize how powerful the list was? Please...

I have no problem with him playing an OP list, I just find him saying he felt bad about it to be disingenuous.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:


Most likely he utilized advice he heard on the internet, took it to the FLGS and played a guy who happened to be orks and realized how insanely powerful his combo actually was for the first time.

No reason to be belligerent toward the dude.

OP wrote...

Seriously how do people play Daemons without Fateweaver? ...

Had a DP holding the book...

I am also running Be'Lakor...

focused on taking out the other princes...

He didn't realize how powerful the list was? Please...

I have no problem with him playing an OP list, I just find him saying he felt bad about it to be disingenuous.

Really? He took a list he had never used before, with an army he's horridly unexperienced with, against an army he's also unfamiliar with, that also happened to be poorly built. (Low model count Orks relying on footslogging Nobz and Deffkoptas is a terrible way to run Orks.)
Accusing him of lying and being a poor sport (Without any proof besides his taking a semi-powerful army, not even the most competetibe Daemon option), is just rude.

If he had taken Fateweaver+Screamerstar and had known who and what he was facing, sure. But there's absolutely no reason to assume any malice in his actions at this point.
He brought a list he had never used before, with an army he has practically no experience with, against an

I faced that combo for the first time recently and it was so sad it was funny. I have no idea how many shots I put in on the 2++ reroll guy but given I was initially shooting him with three dakkafexes before charging him with them and going through several rounds of combat it was a lot.

In my case eventually he failed the grimour roll and reroll and then he was toasted.

I guess I was lucky to ground him but tying up my fexes in combat was painful.

In my case he had the t7 nurgle unclean one holding the grimour and I never managed to kill it.... Although he was tabled apart from that!

I would love to face a 2++ rerollable save with my orks. I would have so many snap shots flying at you that you would be bound to roll those saves. My orks took out Be'Lakor the last time I played daemons. I think it was turn 3 that he bit the dust.

But all bragging aside, I guess I have never played against a 2++ rerollable, and can see how frustrating it could be actually. So at least you know your own strengths now, and if you are going up against a guy who you know always brings some really strong lists, you have some competition for him. If you are just going in to a casual game, maybe leave that trick at home.

INTERNET LIST IN BROKEN UNFUN SHOCKER.

My Nids own demons and GKs. The new Shadows in the warp is real good.

Orcs can have nice lists vs demons. A 2WS isn't a big disad when shooting at flyers to ground.

Lootas do very well vs flyers.

I played vs an orc list that had 3 Force Field generators (9 total shields), 2 groups of lootas, and a custom stompa from Imperial Armor. It wrecked me.

I don't find the daemons 2++ to be that dangerous in itself. I have played it multiple times, usually against screamer star and have a 3/1/0 against it with my D/Eldar. If a unit has a 2++ save then you either tarpit it with something they can't hurt either (twice I charged in an Archon/Vect and kept fortune up on them, tarpitted them for 3 turns until they failed Grimour and killed a few screamers and rolled badly for instability) or fire at something else. To stop it doing what IT wants simply isolate units to make it impossible to multicharge. Now I know this advise is kind of D/Eldar biased but Orks could maybe do it with a Large mod of FnP Orks , yeah he will kill a few, but all you have to do is keep his 500+pt unit tarpitted while the rest of your army uses the amazing amount of dakka to down a daemon prince or two. Something is only OP if it has no counter and 2++'s certainly have a counter.

valace2 wrote:
Seriously how do people play Daemons without Fateweaver?

I play mono-slaanesh, but I also don't use Fateweaver because it's not fun playing against someone who isn't having a good time because you're using a really OP unit.

If you can see that fateweaver is ruining the game for your opponents, maybe don't take him? There are plenty of powerful-but-reasonable units in the Codex...

is a choice.

Prepping for an upcoming tourney, I have Azrael giving 50 guardsmen a 4++. This is a build I would never use unless my opponent was also testing out a competitive list. Still, the Relic was a cinch. Walk the 50 guards men up, pick up the Relic, walk back to the table edge, despite 1850 points of DE filling the unit with poison.

Could I play this all the time? Sure. Do I have any desire to? No. It doesn't fit my army's fluff, and I'm not so intent on winning that I find joy in breaking combinations and frustrating friends.

I personally have little empathy for players that claim they have "only one good thing" in their dex like Vendettas, Helldrakes, or whatever. No, you only have one broken thing. If you don't enjoy the army absent its OP units, pick a different army.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I don't find the daemons 2++ to be that dangerous in itself. I have played it multiple times, usually against screamer star and have a 3/1/0 against it with my D/Eldar. If a unit has a 2++ save then you either tarpit it with something they can't hurt either (twice I charged in an Archon/Vect and kept fortune up on them, tarpitted them for 3 turns until they failed Grimour and killed a few screamers and rolled badly for instability) or fire at something else. To stop it doing what IT wants simply isolate units to make it impossible to multicharge. Now I know this advise is kind of D/Eldar biased but Orks could maybe do it with a Large mod of FnP Orks , yeah he will kill a few, but all you have to do is keep his 500+pt unit tarpitted while the rest of your army uses the amazing amount of dakka to down a daemon prince or two. Something is only OP if it has no counter and 2++'s certainly have a counter.

Objection. Being counterable does not make something balanced. Screamerstars are too difficult to counter, hence they are OP.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I don't find the daemons 2++ to be that dangerous in itself. I have played it multiple times, usually against screamer star and have a 3/1/0 against it with my D/Eldar. If a unit has a 2++ save then you either tarpit it with something they can't hurt either (twice I charged in an Archon/Vect and kept fortune up on them, tarpitted them for 3 turns until they failed Grimour and killed a few screamers and rolled badly for instability) or fire at something else. To stop it doing what IT wants simply isolate units to make it impossible to multicharge. Now I know this advise is kind of D/Eldar biased but Orks could maybe do it with a Large mod of FnP Orks , yeah he will kill a few, but all you have to do is keep his 500+pt unit tarpitted while the rest of your army uses the amazing amount of dakka to down a daemon prince or two. Something is only OP if it has no counter and 2++'s certainly have a counter.

So you play one of the three most powerful armies in the game and therefore rerollable 2++ saves aren't OP?

4/10, try harder next time.

Also, for the record, your definition of "OP" is a bit silly TBH. If I could get Lascannon Devestators for 5 PPM, would they then not be OP because Heldrakes still kill them?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I don't find the daemons 2++ to be that dangerous in itself. I have played it multiple times, usually against screamer star and have a 3/1/0 against it with my D/Eldar. If a unit has a 2++ save then you either tarpit it with something they can't hurt either (twice I charged in an Archon/Vect and kept fortune up on them, tarpitted them for 3 turns until they failed Grimour and killed a few screamers and rolled badly for instability) or fire at something else. To stop it doing what IT wants simply isolate units to make it impossible to multicharge. Now I know this advise is kind of D/Eldar biased but Orks could maybe do it with a Large mod of FnP Orks , yeah he will kill a few, but all you have to do is keep his 500+pt unit tarpitted while the rest of your army uses the amazing amount of dakka to down a daemon prince or two. Something is only OP if it has no counter and 2++'s certainly have a counter.

So you play one of the three most powerful armies in the game and therefore rerollable 2++ saves aren't OP?

4/10, try harder next time.

Also, for the record, your definition of "OP" is a bit silly TBH. If I could get Lascannon Devestators for 5 PPM, would they then not be OP because Heldrakes still kill them?

Don't forget countering the 2++ rerollable with a... You guessed it! 2++ Rerollable Vect....

Nice...

There is a counter. Hit it with the D.

Oh wait..

It was mainly Dark Eldar rather then Eldar, only including a Laughing Seer, Serpentless Dire Avengers and some Dark Reapers. Heck, I even brought a Dias! Not exactly the most optimised list. The point of Vect was to show they can be tarpitted, for example a Wraihknight can do it, so can a 3++ Riptide or a Mega Dread (The ones with AV 13) could do it as well due to low amount of attacks. The other to games I played it was mainly about minimalizing the damage, making sure he couldn't multi charge while I took down the Grimour Prince or Fatey. As I said Orks could do this with Large FnP or Cybork blobs to Tarpit the screamerstar while the Amazing Loota's pump so many shots into the Grimour Prince that he fall down dead. It's like saying a Predator is OP because my bolt pistol can't hurt it, if you can't effectively damage the unit shoot at something else while minimalizing the damage that unit can do.

I remember a time when 2+ and even 3+ invul saves were considered OP, and 2++ rerollables existed purely within the realm of hyperbole and parody.

I do wish we could return to some of that.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Bull crap. You didn't feel bad about anything. You knew exactly what list you were running and just how OP it was. You can lie to yourself, but don't expect me to believe you.

You tell the story like you were somehow the victim of your own gameplay. You knew full well Orks would have virtually no chance against your list and you could have adjusted it accordingly before the game, but didn't. Poor you.

Yes yes, poor me. Do you also know that the only enjoyment I get out of life is taking OP army lists and destroying people in Warhammer 40k? If I couldn't do that I might just put a gun in my mouth. Also you should know since you know me oh so well (Its like we have known each other our whole lives or something), that it was an 11 year old kid I thumped with my uber daemons of doooooooom. As far as I know his little old granny bought him the army as well. Gave me such a warm fuzzy feeling seeing him so dejected.

Sorry sarcasm overload there, I have been known to do that, its a fault.

Seriously you remind me of a guy I play on a regular basis, he complains about my dice rolling, his dice rolling, my army list, his army list. If it can be complained about it he does. I noticed your little saying there, are you just bitter about the treatment Grey Knights have received in 6th edition? I am bitter too, see its like we know each other or something. I play Knights, Imp Guard, Imp Fists, Tau, Dark Angels, and now Daemons.

Seriously I don't think you have the temperament for this game. Maybe you should look into checkers? Just a thought.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
INTERNET LIST IN BROKEN UNFUN SHOCKER.

Funny, there are no Screamers or Heralds in my list. Nor are there plague bearers, which most people use as objective campers. I was playing a list for the 4th time that has some of the most broken combos in it. Fateweaver coupled with Iron Arm and the Book are not going to kill anything in close combat, but short of a D weapon he isn't going down very easily either. I explained how the combo worked a few times and he should have known better than to charge his large Nob unit into a 1 model tarpit. His fault, not mine, that doesn't mean it was easy to watch. We play this game to learn, and if he didn't learn again his fault, not mine.

Daemons to me and especially the Flying Circus needs both Fateweaver and the book. Twice in game 3 I rolled Warp Ebb which as Daemon players know will decimate your army. Without Fateweaver's warlord trait I would have been kaput. In last nights game, I rolled Warp Ebb and Punished by the Gods, which very likely would have killed one of my Princes or Fateweaver. Again without Fateweaver the Warp Storm table crushes me. As far as the book goes, without it Fateweaver gets dropped and rushed by 3 koptas and a large group of nobz and he is done. A 300 point model shouldn't be that squishy. I think alot of the associated costs with daemons reflect on their ability to get so many buffs with biomancy and the daemonic gifts. I don't know how you resolve that, No book last night equals dead Fateweaver, and my army crumbles under the weight of the Warp Storm table.

I should point out, and sorry for the novel length post, that this was the first game I have played in this new campaign at my FLGS, I had no idea what armies I would be coming up against, and there were Eldar, Tau, and even a 2nd daemon army there. Daemons against Orks (especially the ones he was running) was a bad match up.

I will never apologize for the list I run. You don't have to play me. That being said I will never run a screamerstar in a fun game. Building one, but it will only see the table if I am going to a tournament and maybe not even then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I remember a time when 2+ and even 3+ invul saves were considered OP, and 2++ rerollables existed purely within the realm of hyperbole and parody.

I do wish we could return to some of that.

That's why Grey Knights could only take 1 warding staff per squad. a 20+ point piece of wargear for a single model only gives a 2+ invuln in close combat.

valace2 wrote:
Seriously how do people play Daemons without Fateweaver?

I do it all the time. It's fun and hilarious to just let everything ride. All Chaotic like, ya know?

 Wilytank wrote:

valace2 wrote:
Seriously how do people play Daemons without Fateweaver?

I do it all the time. It's fun and hilarious to just let everything ride. All Chaotic like, ya know?

So do I, when I do play 40K nowadays. 100% Khorne, 100% fun.

valace2 wrote:
I seriously felt bad after the game.

valace2 wrote:
I will never apologize for the list I run.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

valace2 wrote:
Seriously how do people play Daemons without Fateweaver?

I do it all the time. It's fun and hilarious to just let everything ride. All Chaotic like, ya know?

So do I, when I do play 40K nowadays. 100% Khorne, 100% fun.

valace2 wrote:
I seriously felt bad after the game.

valace2 wrote:
I will never apologize for the list I run.

Thats right, I am not going to apologize for running the list that I run, that doesn't mean I feel good about beating someone that badly.

You want to let the Warp Storm Table dictate how your game will be run, be my guest.. In 2 out of the 4 games I have played in with my daemons I would have lost because of the Warp Storm table.

If it helps the LVO was run with a 2++/4++ instead of 2++/2++, it is a nice change.

Though honestly the opponent should not have been trying to ground or kill the model with the 2++/2++. That is like me trying to kill an AV12 vehicle by snap firing grenade launchers. Not a great decision.