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Forgetting fluff, and taking possessed as troops does dakka think that the Crimson Slaughter is good enough on a competitive level to be a primary detachment? Obviously you would lose access to the Mace, Axe, and Brand. But almost all of the relics in this supplement seem really good.

I want to try really.. From the main codex I used mostly BboS and BM, though after Be'lakors dataslate I played them mostly as allies to my CD army. Now with these new rules I am thinking of either adding them as allies again to my CD or playing them as main with CD allies.
I was thinking of a big possessed blob with MoT and cypher. I think that with infiltrate, shrouded and hit and run they can probably rock. They can also be targeted with grimoire though I do not know if their 4++ goes 2++.
Apart from that as it has been mentioned the nurgle biker lord can get 2+ save and IWND. The div relic seems to be good but I think it is good if you play only CSM because CD can bring div to your list with better survivability. Also the chosen unit can be effective if they are shooty and go for preffered enemy upgrade. What are your thoughts on this?
P.s. The new hellbrute dataslate looks promising and I want to be as I have 3 chaos dreadnoughts/hellbrute a sitting on the shelf and I want to buy the new kit also.

Meh, seems about even to me. I wouldn't say that 'almost all' the relics are really good. More like 2 of them (daemonheart and balestar). The rest don't really seem like anything to me. The warlord table is okay but I'd be afraid of getting the one that makes your warlord charge if possible. Other than that the rules don't seem to do much of note. You could always ally back with reg CSM to get your mace/axe/brand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 avedominusnox wrote:

I was thinking of a big possessed blob with MoT and cypher. I think that with infiltrate, shrouded and hit and run they can probably rock. They can also be targeted with grimoire though I do not know if their 4++ goes 2++.

Could be fun and thematic, I hope your opponent doesn't bring a tough list though. Your looking at over 600 pts just for 20 possessed with MoT. They'll have a 4++ which saves 50% compared to no invuln but as they are over twice the cost of a regular marine it still doesn't seem very good. Also once they get to close combat they no longer get their vessels bonus so they are the same in cc as marines with +1 S (unless they role rending but thats not going to change things). +1 S and an invuln is hard to swallow for that many points over a regular marine. Especially with cypher where they would have fearless anyway and he couldn't keep up with beasts if they rolled it.

I think theres a general consensus that the wording of MoT doesn't allow it to ever contribute to getting a 2++.

Is it worth giving up the Burning Brand, Black Mace, and Axe of Blind Fury? Also is the CS Warlord table worth taking a gamble on? Are the CS rules actually good?

Not even close for me. Possessed are still bad and causing Fear isnt worth bothering with.

But if you want to play with the relics just Ally the Slaughter in a normal CSM army. Personally I dont see why, as the relics arent all that great. Though I guess if people paid $50 for two pages of rules they would want some milage.

Well you should look at it this way. If you were running a list without one of the relics (aka nurgle biker lord probably) then it is pure win. If you needed one of the relics for your plans then probably not.

I personally think it is a great supplement and looks like it would work well with a variety of builds. Loosing the relics is a little harmful as the relics in CS are good but there is nothing as punchy as a daemon weapon. However having a divination psyker is going to be huge and a 2+ IWND nurgle biker lord is going to do some serious damage control. I guess I am saying get a nurgle biker lord who couldn't make very good use of the daemon weapons anyways

Deadza wrote:
Is it worth giving up the Burning Brand, Black Mace, and Axe of Blind Fury? Also is the CS Warlord table worth taking a gamble on? Are the CS rules actually good?

Not even close for me. Possessed are still bad and causing Fear isnt worth bothering with.

Possessed are bad because of their point cost and the lack of a proper assault transport (no, Godhammer Landraiders don't count) more than anything else.

Deadza wrote:
But if you want to play with the relics just Ally the Slaughter in a normal CSM army. Personally I dont see why, as the relics arent all that great. Though I guess if people paid $50 for two pages of rules they would want some milage.

Two pages of rules, 4 Altar of War Missions to use instead of the core rulebook ones, 6 Eternal War missions (specific scenarios against certain factions, namely Dark Angels, Chaos Daemons and Guard), Cities of Death Stratagems and Planetstrike Stratagems. The only thing it's missing is some Apoc love and the book would have everything you'd need to use them for everything.

Not to mention a lot more and more rounded fluff for the faction that we got in C:CSM.

I actually want to get mileage out of them because I dig their fluff, and their design more than the cost of the book (I normally buy these things for reviewing so I was getting it regardless...might as well put that habit of collecting codexes to good use, right?). Of course I'm also not a super-hard tournament player so I've got more room to have things not be 100% optimized.

I've always seen the Mace as lack luster. On paper it looks good, but to get the most out of it, it should be on a daemon prince. On a biker lord its ok, but I'd rather have PF/LC.

I guess I was looking at the supplement as a primary detachment because some of these relics just seem to better support the army or improve the survivability of the models rather than the base codex ones which are more or less "Hey imagine how many wounds you can do!"

 l0k1 wrote:
I've always seen the Mace as lack luster. On paper it looks good, but to get the most out of it, it should be on a daemon prince. On a biker lord its ok, but I'd rather have PF/LC.

I don't like the mace because it costs twice as much as the generic version but only gains a single rule. And then you're taking it on a model that already has one, so you're paying twice the cost to replace something you paid for when you took the model. I'd be okay with the Maul if it was 15 points, but at 30 you're basically just getting trolled by GW if you take it.

EDIT: Just to be clear I mean the Crozarius from the CS book, not the Black Mace. Forgot that both books have a power maul for a bit there.

 l0k1 wrote:
I guess I was looking at the supplement as a primary detachment because some of these relics just seem to better support the army or improve the survivability of the models rather than the base codex ones which are more or less "Hey imagine how many wounds you can do!"

The relics are also more tightly tied into the specific army unlike the main rulebook where they're just "Chaos" in general.

 l0k1 wrote:
I've always seen the Mace as lack luster. On paper it looks good, but to get the most out of it, it should be on a daemon prince. On a biker lord its ok, but I'd rather have PF/LC.

I think it has its use, which is different than PF/LC. The mace lord is more similar to the DP with daemon Wep in purpose. They are for deleting entire units, not taking out hard targets. Granted the DP doesn't have to worry about any armor, but don't count the mace out completely. Its just not ideal to throw against power armor or better.

I think CS have massive potential, the Possessed blob is on the right track. Fateweaver to re-roll the D3 and Grimoire, hide some scary Lords inside with Cypher to infiltrate and hit and run, and give them MoS for FNP. Can have a sorc casting divination as well from inside the blob.

20 3+ 5++ Scoring MEQs with +1 Str, +1 I and FNP, 55% chance (with Fatey) to get rending and a 3++ or 2++, built in Shrouded and defensive grenades from the ICs, fearless, feer, hit and run, fleet with the ability to start 18" away from the enemy army.

Far more killy and roughly the same price as a screamerstar; Chaos are back in the game. The blob can definitely steamroll tier 2 armies, and give tier 1 armies pause.

I'm not sure if you can rack up enough kills to make the Relentless blade useful. It would be certainly fun to try, though. By and large I see it being an exciting, if unreliable army to play; when it comes together it can be unstoppable, but a few bad rolls and it all goes to tears. Anyway, if you want reliability play loyalists... not Chaos.

How much is that possessed blob with characters and upgrades going to cost you though? Probably way too much fora vviable tournament list. For fun, yeah it could be fun.

 l0k1 wrote:
How much is that possessed blob with characters and upgrades going to cost you though? Probably way too much fora vviable tournament list. For fun, yeah it could be fun.

I'd ballpark it at 900 odd points.

The Crimson Slaughter relics seem superior to the generic ones to me.

Were I to play vanilla CSM, I'd probably run it as Crimson Slaughter.

I still wouldn't use Possessed.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
I've always seen the Mace as lack luster. On paper it looks good, but to get the most out of it, it should be on a daemon prince. On a biker lord its ok, but I'd rather have PF/LC.

I don't like the mace because it costs twice as much as the generic version but only gains a single rule. And then you're taking it on a model that already has one, so you're paying twice the cost to replace something you paid for when you took the model. I'd be okay with the Maul if it was 15 points, but at 30 you're basically just getting trolled by GW if you take it.

EDIT: Just to be clear I mean the Crozarius from the CS book, not the Black Mace. Forgot that both books have a power maul for a bit there.

 l0k1 wrote:
I guess I was looking at the supplement as a primary detachment because some of these relics just seem to better support the army or improve the survivability of the models rather than the base codex ones which are more or less "Hey imagine how many wounds you can do!"

The relics are also more tightly tied into the specific army unlike the main rulebook where they're just "Chaos" in general.

Bah didn't read that right.

I find it interesting that it appears players prefer to have very killy moderately durable HQs(bike lords) and durable troops(plague marines) to moderately killy and durable HQs(bike lord with new relics) and durable troops (plague marines)

 l0k1 wrote:
I find it interesting that it appears players prefer to have very killy moderately durable HQs(bike lords) and durable troops(plague marines) to moderately killy and durable HQs(bike lord with new relics) and durable troops (plague marines)

That is because the HQs tend to be about as durable either way when put into the durable units they run with, a 2+ LOS is the same for either. Most of the wounds that end up on my biker or juggerlords BTW are not from shooting or AP3 or worse attacks. They are from that nasty HQ I rolled poorly to kill or that MC that managed to chew the rest of the way through my spawn. I would much rather kill them than try to handle them with a 2+ save.

With the juggerlord this new group of relics is pretty much awful as the axe is brutal. With the nurgle biker lord it is pretty much all win. With the black mace DP he doesn't exist and gets nothing to replace him in the CS supplement. The cheapy lord gets expensive if he takes a relic and the cheapy sorcerer is just better with divination (the biggest gain in CS). The named characters don't change and taking CS is pure gain as army wide fear is better than VotLW and doesn't cost. The brand sorcerer doesn't have an equivalent here except that he was always somewhat outclassed by the heldrake anyways, so he can be fairly easily replaced by a divination sorcerer to buff up units now. Did I miss any of the major HQ archetypes?

 l0k1 wrote:
I've always seen the Mace as lack luster. On paper it looks good, but to get the most out of it, it should be on a daemon prince. On a biker lord its ok, but I'd rather have PF/LC.

I completely disagree. Even with AP4 the black mace rocks against 3+ or even 2+ enemies. With +D6 attacks all you need is one wound to go through (remember the 3" curse also ignores invul saves). I thought it wouldn't be good when I saw it on paper but in game it is amazing on a bike lord.


Anyways, I think the Crimson Slaughter supplement is kinda cool, but not worth it. It certainly is not worth spending the money on the book...
Not being able to put VotLW on ICs hurts, as those rerolls help a lot. A juggerlord with PF/LC and the 2+ relic would be a very hard to kill beatstick, but he still doesn't have EW and so gets splatted by the myriad of S10 (including the tons of MCs). On a Nurgle bike lord it isn't worth it either as 3 wounds is not even to make IWND worth it.
The balestar is cool but... I don't think it's worth taking this army just for that. Don't even get me started on paying 30 points for a stupid possessed chart, 5++, fleet, and fear. This should be worth 10 points max.

Space Marines still have a blatant +1 over everything given here.

Also yes, possessed are still one of the worst units in the entire game, even with these changes. Random movement, crappy defenses, ludicrous price tag, only 2 attacks with one CCW = a completely terrible unit.

If you give the bike lord MoN a S10 attack will only wound, assuming you fail your armor/inuln save.

Votlw is also a bit situational. Hatred SMs doesn't work against IG, Sisters, Elder, DE, CSM, Tau, Daemons, or nids. The +1 leadership is nice.

I think a problem you are having herpguy is the same one a lot of chaos players have. You compare the CSM dex to the SM dex. Do they get stuff we don't? Yes. Would it be nice if we got it? Absolutely! Will that happen? Probably not so I try to focus on what we DO have not what we SHOULD have to make things work. Congrats to SM player for Shield Eternal, not a single SM player in my area uses it.

 herpguy wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
I've always seen the Mace as lack luster. On paper it looks good, but to get the most out of it, it should be on a daemon prince. On a biker lord its ok, but I'd rather have PF/LC.

I completely disagree. Even with AP4 the black mace rocks against 3+ or even 2+ enemies. With +D6 attacks all you need is one wound to go through (remember the 3" curse also ignores invul saves). I thought it wouldn't be good when I saw it on paper but in game it is amazing on a bike lord.

I wouldn't say it rocks 3+ or 2+ at all. You only need one to go through, and then things have to fail a toughness test on probably T4 if they have that kind of armor. Thats only a 1 in 3. As for that initial wound you might find it less likely than you think. Assuming 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound. Even if you get lucky and roll a 6 for your attacks (11 total on charge) you are only going to average about 6 wounds. So thats only an average 1 TEQ or 2 MEQ. You might get one or two more from the curse with T4 but you're really counting on your luck here. Best to not send up against these saves unless you got no choice.

herpguy wrote:I completely disagree. Even with AP4 the black mace rocks against 3+ or even 2+ enemies. With +D6 attacks all you need is one wound to go through (remember the 3" curse also ignores invul saves). I thought it wouldn't be good when I saw it on paper but in game it is amazing on a bike lord.

It is okay but not great. The price tag of it versus what happens when you have to fight a combat character is the problem. Due to CSM requiring you to accept challenges your super expensive mace lord can very easily get punked by any melee combat character in the game if you take the mace.

herpguy wrote:Anyways, I think the Crimson Slaughter supplement is kinda cool, but not worth it. It certainly is not worth spending the money on the book...
Not being able to put VotLW on ICs hurts, as those rerolls help a lot. A juggerlord with PF/LC and the 2+ relic would be a very hard to kill beatstick, but he still doesn't have EW and so gets splatted by the myriad of S10 (including the tons of MCs). On a Nurgle bike lord it isn't worth it either as 3 wounds is not even to make IWND worth it.
The balestar is cool but... I don't think it's worth taking this army just for that. Don't even get me started on paying 30 points for a stupid possessed chart, 5++, fleet, and fear. This should be worth 10 points max.

I don't think most people will use a juggerlord in this dex. The juugerlord after all sort of depends on the axe of blind fury to really unleash and become the monster he wants to be. The nurgle biker lord on the other hand can tank for a nurgle biker/spawn unit and with Sv 2+, inv 4+, IWND, and T6 he is pretty dang survivable. Just roll the 2+ until he takes a wound and start LOS the rest of the wounds onto his spawn/biker bullet catchers. The possessed artifact is great because the character becomes a daemon. He can get the grimoire put on him for a 2+ invulnerable save and he gets an extra rule every turn which may be great (invulnerable save one is great on an IC), may help him deal with terrain (beasts ignore terrain so feel free to move straight through that forest/ruins), or may let him rend. He also gets a 5++ invulnerable which is worth 15 pts by itself.

herpguy wrote:Space Marines still have a blatant +1 over everything given here.

Not really, there is not units like spawn, heldrake, oblits, and fear causing cultists and rhinos. SM don't even get divination.

l0k1 wrote:If you give the bike lord MoN a S10 attack will only wound, assuming you fail your armor/inuln save.

Votlw is also a bit situational. Hatred SMs doesn't work against IG, Sisters, Elder, DE, CSM, Tau, Daemons, or nids. The +1 leadership is nice.

I think a problem you are having herpguy is the same one a lot of chaos players have. You compare the CSM dex to the SM dex. Do they get stuff we don't? Yes. Would it be nice if we got it? Absolutely! Will that happen? Probably not so I try to focus on what we DO have not what we SHOULD have to make things work. Congrats to SM player for Shield Eternal, not a single SM player in my area uses it.

+1

Fear on everything is vastly superior to having to pay for VotLW

I for one am going to use Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. I want to use my Chosen as troops, that insta-death hand of death thing AND have an 2+/EW HQ and Divination. Find the best stuff, and use what you want.

Not really, there is not units like spawn, heldrake, oblits, and fear causing cultists and rhinos. SM don't even get divination.

Tigurius begs to differ. Anyways, yes we do get things but we also lack in many other things. Drop pods for instance are 100% necessary for any chaos force and they all use them in the fluff, yet they disappear on the tabletop, leaving CSM with no good way to get troops in the backfield. The biggest slap in the face was SM chapter masters getting a way better statline than Chaos Lords, and getting cheap eternal warrior.

CS is cool, but I would never spend the price tag on it in the first place. Spending $50 to be able to use divination is highway robbery.

 l0k1 wrote:
I find it interesting that it appears players prefer to have very killy moderately durable HQs(bike lords) and durable troops(plague marines) to moderately killy and durable HQs(bike lord with new relics) and durable troops (plague marines)

I'm looking more at Cultists and CSM with MoK/IoW (with the purchased CCW option) for my army. If I wanted to play Plague Marines I'd just play Death Guard instead.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I think CS have massive potential, the Possessed blob is on the right track. Fateweaver to re-roll the D3 and Grimoire, hide some scary Lords inside with Cypher to infiltrate and hit and run, and give them MoS for FNP. Can have a sorc casting divination as well from inside the blob.

20 3+ 5++ Scoring MEQs with +1 Str, +1 I and FNP, 55% chance (with Fatey) to get rending and a 3++ or 2++, built in Shrouded and defensive grenades from the ICs, fearless, feer, hit and run, fleet with the ability to start 18" away from the enemy army.

Far more killy and roughly the same price as a screamerstar; Chaos are back in the game. The blob can definitely steamroll tier 2 armies, and give tier 1 armies pause.

I'm not sure if you can rack up enough kills to make the Relentless blade useful. It would be certainly fun to try, though. By and large I see it being an exciting, if unreliable army to play; when it comes together it can be unstoppable, but a few bad rolls and it all goes to tears. Anyway, if you want reliability play loyalists... not Chaos.

It's going to be fun to see your face when you find a list that spams str9/10 vp2/3 large blasts...

You can just ally yourself with Chaos Daemons and spam Daemonettes and Flesh Hounds. A lot more wounds, higher damage output (due to sheer numbers), lower cost.

Results 2 and 3 are both very useful, but they do need a specific plan to work accordingly. 3++ Invulnerable save with rending is very good, you obtain a durable unit with decent damage output, but you need a LR to deliver them where needed most.
Result 3 makes them very fast, so no need for a transport.... Kind of messy, actually

Generally, I think that Possessed are too expensive to be used as troops.
Asmodai provided a list with 20 Possessed that are buffed in certain ways. But this unit is too slow when compared with a screamerstar.

I think I will try Crimson Slaughter as my primary, but II wouldn't use possessed as troops. I would probably still use plague marines (and I still get to VoTLW with them, as I understand) or noise marines, and I have also been known to use regular chaos space marines from time to time. I definitely want to try to Divination, probably in conjunction with a unit of foot slogging obliterators.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Generally, I think that Possessed are too expensive to be used as troops.
Asmodai provided a list with 20 Possessed that are buffed in certain ways. But this unit is too slow when compared with a screamerstar.

They have Hit and Run, Fleet, and have a chance to become Beasts. Your lord can move 12" +3" +d6 run if you conga line the marines. Hit and Run alone makes them WAYYYY better than the Screamerstar (considering it's at Cypher's I8, it's automatic). Even 20 5++ shrouded FNP marines are still pretty hard to kill, all told. The fact they are scoring means they have to be dealt with.

Of course, everything comes down to a D3 roll at the start of your turn (this can be either exciting or annoying, but again don't play Chaos for reliability)
but this can be mitigated through judicious use of the Fateweaver Reroll and Grimoire. If you're going for speed, Grimoire first and then roll on the chart, aiming for Beasts. Otherwise you can Grimoire if you fail to get 3++.

While clearly not as stupidly mobile as Seer Council the Slaughterstar provides means to compete with Beastpack, Seer Council, O'vesastar... in other words, it moves Chaos up to tier 1. They cost as much as a Seer Council points wise and lack the equivalent vulnerability to alpha strike.

Against large blasts they can easily space out. They basically are the Chaos version of Beastpack, more random, slightly tougher, with a 55% chance to go insane every turn. Now if there was only some way to get Monster Hunter / PE into the unit...

Possessed are still random. Leaving tactics to dice whim is terrible. And by tactics I mean hoping for their 12" beast move too much. Anyway if you like them cool, but they never will be "good" in 6th. Use them and have fun though, winning will be even sweeter with un-optimal units!

But I will say after playing with some lists I too like the idea of Nurgle Biker Lord using that special armor sounds neat. Mostly for the IWND rule, but my luck at 5+ is so poor Id still pass ha. Force /D Weapons still instant death him too sadly, too bad.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Generally, I think that Possessed are too expensive to be used as troops.
Asmodai provided a list with 20 Possessed that are buffed in certain ways. But this unit is too slow when compared with a screamerstar.

They have Hit and Run, Fleet, and have a chance to become Beasts. Your lord can move 12" +3" +d6 run if you conga line the marines. Hit and Run alone makes them WAYYYY better than the Screamerstar (considering it's at Cypher's I8, it's automatic). Even 20 5++ shrouded FNP marines are still pretty hard to kill, all told. The fact they are scoring means they have to be dealt with.

Of course, everything comes down to a D3 roll at the start of your turn (this can be either exciting or annoying, but again don't play Chaos for reliability)
but this can be mitigated through judicious use of the Fateweaver Reroll and Grimoire. If you're going for speed, Grimoire first and then roll on the chart, aiming for Beasts. Otherwise you can Grimoire if you fail to get 3++.

While clearly not as stupidly mobile as Seer Council the Slaughterstar provides means to compete with Beastpack, Seer Council, O'vesastar... in other words, it moves Chaos up to tier 1. They cost as much as a Seer Council points wise and lack the equivalent vulnerability to alpha strike.

Against large blasts they can easily space out. They basically are the Chaos version of Beastpack, more random, slightly tougher, with a 55% chance to go insane every turn. Now if there was only some way to get Monster Hunter / PE into the unit...

I'd be interested to see a competitive list, if you have one in mind. I have my doubts, but I'm always open to new ideas.

I think you start with this ...

Chaos Lord, MoN, Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Slaughterer’s Horns, Daemonheart, Sigil of Corruption, Blight Grenades, Bike
Chaos Sorcerer, Balestar of Mannon, ML3, Bike
5 Plague Marines, 2 Plasma Guns, Rhino, Dirge Caster, Havoc Launcher
10 Cultists
2 Heldrake, Hades or Baleflamer
5 Chaos Spawn, MoN
3 Obliterators, MoN

Now you can add more HS and troops or ally in CSM.