Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well i was wondering can necrons being the main force allie with crimsom slaughter and black legion,need to know if i can.

What do the books for Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion say?

I don't think so, but may be wrong.

Necrons can allie with chaos but they are allies of convenience

So i can or i have to bring a CSM with supplent of crimsom slughter?

Rorschach9 wrote:
What do the books for Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion say?

I asked because they will provide you with the allies matrix for these armies.

The crimson slaughter entry says they may ally with CSM and that CSM can ally with them. No other armies are mentioned.

Well there's the answer.

Gonna be honest with you OP, there isn't much a CSM allied detachment can do for you that your Necrons can't already do. Even if they are Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter. Only exception is maybe a Heldrake may be useful, but that's about it.

wow so i can allie with CSM them bring crimson slaughter and necron mmmmmm i have ideas lol,

Check out GW's reply at the bottom of the image.



Looks like Crimson Slaughter SHOULD have regular CSM allies matrix, but someone effed up and RAW it currently doesn't.

 BarBoBot wrote:
The crimson slaughter entry says they may ally with CSM and that CSM can ally with them. No other armies are mentioned.

That line is only there so that the supplement can be it's own chaos army, while allying with another chaos army.


Yes, your Necrons can ally with either Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, or Regular CSM. You can only pick one though. Remember, they are supplements, so they follow the Ally matrix for CSM.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Looks like Crimson Slaughter SHOULD have regular CSM allies matrix, but someone effed up and RAW it currently doesn't.

Par for course, really (GW has never been known for its rules writing attention to details, nor its quality control).
That's the main reason I tend to go with RAI if a rule makes no sense. If someone tries to rules lawyer because they found a loophole that exploits RAW, you just pack up and go find someone else to play (we should discourage TFG-ish behavior every chance we get).

 Sasori wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
The crimson slaughter entry says they may ally with CSM and that CSM can ally with them. No other armies are mentioned.

That line is only there so that the supplement can be it's own chaos army, while allying with another chaos army.


Yes, your Necrons can ally with either Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, or Regular CSM. You can only pick one though. Remember, they are supplements, so they follow the Ally matrix for CSM.

Wrong. I have the farsight supplement as well as crimson slaughter.

Her is what farsight enclaves says; ALLIES " in addition to flowing the allies matrix for codex: Tau empire, farsight enclaves detachments and tau empire may ally together as battle brothers"

Now here is crimson slaughter; ALLIES " a crimson slaughter detachment can ally with codex: CSM detachment as battle brothers (and vice versa) "

You don see a difference there?

No, crimson slaughter may not ally with anyone but CSM. ( that is unless your can quote a rule I missed)

You're the kind of guy skoffs is talking about.

Explain how there is any other conclusion you can draw from that rule.

The tau one clearly states that as well as using the tau matrix, they may also ally with themselves, and the CS does not.

Having read the fluff of CS, it makes perfect sense that they don't ally.

They hate xenos and demons and only allied with other CSM because refusing would have meant Abbadon would have wiped them out.... Which has no bearing on the actual rules, but your not following the rules anyway...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually what is your rules basis for claiming they may ally with anyone CsM does? I really don't see how that rule is ambiguous in any way.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Explain how there is any other conclusion you can draw from that rule.

The tau one clearly states that as well as using the tau matrix, they may also ally with themselves, and the CS does not.

Having read the fluff of CS, it makes perfect sense that they don't ally.

They hate xenos and demons and only allied with other CSM because refusing would have meant Abbadon would have wiped them out.... Which has no bearing on the actual rules, but your not following the rules anyway...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually what is your rules basis for claiming they may ally with anyone CsM does? I really don't see how that rule is ambiguous in any way.

Clan Raukaan an dSentinels of Terra have no rules concerning allies whatsoever. Are they not allowed to ally with anyone? CS and BL are Codex: Chaos Space Marines with supplemental rules. They use the CSM ally matrix.

In a permissive ruleset, you need permission to do things.

Where is the permission for a supplement to use the same ally matrix as the core codex?

If they use the matrix of the codex, then why does the farsight rules tell you they use the normal tau matrix?

slaede wrote:

Clan Raukaan an dSentinels of Terra have no rules concerning allies whatsoever. Are they not allowed to ally with anyone? CS and BL are Codex: Chaos Space Marines with supplemental rules. They use the CSM ally matrix.

There's a difference here.

Sentinels and Raukaan states they are supplemental rules that are in addition to the rules found in Codex: SM. This would mean "use the ally rules found in C:SM".

Farsight Enclave and Black Legion explicitly states they use the same allies matrix as their basic counterparts and have additions of allying with the basic version also.

Iyanden I am not certain (don't have that one in digital form).

Crimson Slaughter states just CSM.


So with how each of these are setup, I would say Crimson Slaughter can ally with CSM and Black Legion (since Black Legion states it can take the role of a CSM matrix); however, that's it. No daemons, no Necrons, no Guard. Just CSM.

 Unholyllama wrote:

slaede wrote:

Clan Raukaan an dSentinels of Terra have no rules concerning allies whatsoever. Are they not allowed to ally with anyone? CS and BL are Codex: Chaos Space Marines with supplemental rules. They use the CSM ally matrix.

There's a difference here.

Sentinels and Raukaan states they are supplemental rules that are in addition to the rules found in Codex: SM. This would mean "use the ally rules found in C:SM".

Farsight Enclave and Black Legion explicitly states they use the same allies matrix as their basic counterparts and have additions of allying with the basic version also.

Iyanden I am not certain (don't have that one in digital form).

Crimson Slaughter states just CSM.


So with how each of these are setup, I would say Crimson Slaughter can ally with CSM and Black Legion (since Black Legion states it can take the role of a CSM matrix); however, that's it. No daemons, no Necrons, no Guard. Just CSM.

This, exactly.

How the supplements and codex's are worded with regards to allies matters. Simply saying "it's a supplement" does not get around how the allies matrix works as all of the supplements specify how to work with them in some way or another (in the cited case of Sentinals and Raukaan, it does not call out the allies matrix but specifies they are "in addition to" the rules for C:SM .. ie : Take C:SM in whole, then add these rules) while Crimson Slaughter calls out CSM allies only.

 BarBoBot wrote:

In a permissive ruleset, you need permission to do things.

Where is the permission for a supplement to use the same ally matrix as the core codex?

If they use the matrix of the codex, then why does the farsight rules tell you they use the normal tau matrix?

Okay, so Raukaan and Sentinels of Terra can't ally with anyone because they aren't permitted to.

There is nothing in the CSM book that says it is allowed to ally with anyone. It is covered in the main rulebook.

To Unholyllama's point

"Sentinels and Raukaan states they are supplemental rules that are in addition to the rules found in Codex: SM"

Crimson Slaughter has the exact same verbiage at the top of page 50. It says these are supplemental rules in addition to those found in Codex:CSM. Therefore Crimson Slaughter is C:CSM with extra supplemental rules, and follows the CSM ally matrix. Crimson Slaughter is not a codex and therefore has no allies matrix whatsoever. Same with Raukaan.

So either Raukaan and Sentinels can't ally with anyone at all and CS only allies with CSM, or CS allies with anything CSM can.

So regardless of the fact that each supplement has had different wording for how they ally, you want to treat them as if they all ally the same?

Where does it say this in the rules?

 BarBoBot wrote:
So regardless of the fact that each supplement has had different wording for how they ally, you want to treat them as if they all ally the same?

Where does it say this in the rules?

Where it states that the rules in the codex supplement are SUPPLEMENTAL to the rules of the parent codex. Note that supplemental means they do not override the rules of the parent codex, except in cases where they state things like Crimson Slaughter can't take artifacts from the main CSM book.

If Crimson Slaughter aren't considered CSM for the purposes of the allies matrix, are they not CSM for the purposes of Deathwing preferred enemy? Of course not.

So why do some say they use the codex ally matrix and some don't?

 BarBoBot wrote:
So why do some say they use the codex ally matrix and some don't?

Bad writing/poor quality control.
FAQs would normally correct this, but it looks like they're taking a break from regular FAQ updating until 7th ed. comes out.

In other words its just your opinion.

The rules as written do not agree with you, and you have now conceded that by claiming it will require a FAQ to fix "bad writing".

 BarBoBot wrote:
In other words its just your opinion.

The rules as written do not agree with you, and you have now conceded that by claiming it will require a FAQ to fix "bad writing".

What is not my opinion is that the book is a supplement to Codex: Chaos Space Marines, therefore they follow all rules applicable to that book in addition to those in the supplement. Are you seriously arguing that Raukaan and Sentinels can't ally with anyone?

Or in other words, the fact that it is worded differently in different supplements does not change the fact that all supplements are supplemental to the parent codex, and abide by the rules that pertain to the parent codex.

I actually see the merit in both points here. BarBoBot, I see what you're saying. However, as much as I like to always go RAW, I can say this is one of the few cases where I can say this is a problem stemming directly from only very sloppy writing.

Your all correct in your assessment of the writing. It says that. The interpretation would also imply that hatred (CSM) does not apply to CS or BL.

I think it's pretty obvious the rule weren't written correctly, as evidenced by the GW employing basically saying as much, plus common sense.

Has any supplement had such crazy restriction for no reason? No. If you insist on enforcing a miswritten rule, your not wrong your just an ahole.

The legion with the focus on demon possessed marines cannot ally with demons. This is neither logical or fluffy.

It's up to you I guess, but how you treat these situations determine who you are as a gamer. If your saying "to bad that's how they wrote it" you're THAT GUY.

Up until the FAQ came out people tried to say Abaddon couldn't join units with marks. It was a stupid buy technically correct reading of the rules. The rules in place are meant to keep a fair game, and we all know they aren't great at that. A common sense interpretation here does not break the game or imbalance either army. Your not forced to be decent but Jesus WHY NOT?

First off, saying its a miswritten rule is nothing more than your opinion. Your opinion is not the rules.

Second, if you had read the crimson slaughter fluff, you would know that they don't like demons, in fact they still have plans to kill them even though they allied with abbadon. by allied with abbadon, I mean that they were forced to ally with CSM because if they refused, abbadon would have wiped them out. Its all right there in the book.

Not only are the actual rules on my side, but fluff also.

As for your insults, I relish them.... People often turn to insults when they are wrong and fail to convince someone who disagrees.